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Nuns with Guns posted:Is it allowable by kickstarter's terms and conditions to tell people they can't raise issues they have about your project to you after they back it, with the implication that you'll kick them out of the kickstarter for doing that? I'm not sure. You should bring it up with the guy in charge of the tabletop kickstarter section. What was his name again? Oh yeah, Luke Crane. 
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Sep 16, 2016 14:07
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I'm not sure. You should bring it up with the guy in charge of the tabletop kickstarter section. What was his name again? Oh yeah, Luke Crane. The head of the section telling people they aren't allowed to complain or they'll be forcibly ejected from his own project seems like pretty good grounds for going over his head to someone that actually matters
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Sep 16, 2016 14:24
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In non-pretentious project news, [url="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/821979583/interface-zero-20-cyberpunk-action-for-the-pathfin"Gun Metal Games are kickstarting a Pathfinder version of Interface Zero 2.0[/url]. I backed the Savage Worlds and Fate Core versions, and David Jarvis has been delivering like a mofo. IZ is a solid cyberpunk setting with elements of more modern ideas like transhumanism, and also remembers that the world outside the US exists and actually covers what's going on in other countries.quote:Interface Zero 2.0 is a cyberpunk setting…Sort of. Interface Zero is inspired by a plethora of sources including novels such as Neuromancer, Mona Lisa Overdrive, Burning Chrome, Count Zero, Altered Carbon, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, and Snow Crash.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:32
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Nuns with Guns posted:The pictures for sad children kickstarter? That one hit a bad end when USPS bumped up shipping costs after the kickstarter ended and the creator was genuinely unable to afford shipping all of the books. That exacerbated other personal stresses they were dealing with at the time. That's it. I read a piece by him in the aftermath, describing his frustration with the whole Kickstarter experience and how as an artist what he really wanted was patronage, support for making art and not having to worry about print production and all of that crap. I remember scoffing, but if Patreon had come into being a year earlier, things might have turned out differently. 
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Sep 16, 2016 15:33
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Nuns with Guns posted:Is it allowable by kickstarter's terms and conditions to tell people they can't raise issues they have about your project to you after they back it, with the implication that you'll kick them out of the kickstarter for doing that? I'm pretty sure it's allowed as long as you don't take their money. The creator can decide who is and isn't a customer. It's lovely business and lovely people skills, but I would imagine it's not against the rules to be a terrible person as long as backers are made financially whole either with products or refunds.
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Sep 16, 2016 15:38
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Sigma-X posted:He has a giant ego and doesn't want people questioning his vision. No, I'm pretty sure that if the print shop called him to ask about shipping details or if the check was in the mail he wouldn't immediately tear up the contract and go to a different one.
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Sep 16, 2016 16:55
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people trying to sell poo poo on kickstarter should be nicer to their customers considering it's already a big ask to demand payment a year or more in advance with no protection against the very high chance that nothing will ever be delivered or that it'll be crap.
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Sep 16, 2016 17:06
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Bieeardo posted:That's it. I read a piece by him in the aftermath, describing his frustration with the whole Kickstarter experience and how as an artist what he really wanted was patronage, support for making art and not having to worry about print production and all of that crap. I remember scoffing, but if Patreon had come into being a year earlier, things might have turned out differently.
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Sep 16, 2016 17:17
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Terrible Opinions posted:Though the key to a successful patreon is also consistent content creation. No one is going to support you out of the kindness of their hearts, because money without the pressure of needing results is literally what every person on earth wants. Doesn't that one webcomic guy get a few grand a month whether he actually produces the pages or not? Fleecing nerds is a stable industry.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:06
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:the very high chance that nothing will ever be delivered
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Sep 16, 2016 18:08
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Litany Unheard posted:Doesn't that one webcomic guy get a few grand a month whether he actually produces the pages or not? Fleecing nerds is a stable industry. Yup
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Sep 16, 2016 18:11
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FRINGE posted:Ive never had this happen. Your experience is not typical.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:15
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FRINGE posted:Ive never had this happen. Okay good for you, but plenty of people have in fact had it happen to the point where it's become a fairly common bit of "Kickstarter 101" advice for anyone new to crowdfunding. There are people here who backed Far West and while that looks fuckin stupid in retrospect up until that point there really wasn't any indication that Gareth-Michael Skarka was going to fail to produce a thing for five years running. Alas Vegas, The Doom That Came to Atlantic City, The Deck of Wonders, this is just the stuff off the top of my head that either I myself have backed or that regularly come up as examples of noticeably failed Kickstarters. Flying Assault Butts, there's another one. It's not just traditional games either, you get it with tech gadgets, video games, etc. This also isn't counting the outright scams like that guy who had three simultaneous Kickstarters for Pathfinder adventures going who unsurprisingly has vanished off the face of the earth with like $7,000+ of other peoples' money. Luke Crane isn't a scammer but it's still kind of absurd that the guy Kickstarter put in charge of whatever he's in charge of would decide that the best way to present a crowdfunded project is to say "if you back this then your job is to sit down and shut the gently caress up until I say otherwise, I don't want to hear you asking about pesky things like delivery dates or why your stuff is late."
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Sep 16, 2016 18:20
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FRINGE posted:Ive never had this happen. you've never even been disappointed by what you wound up with in the end, or been stuck waiting on a delayed project to the point you don't want the thing you paid for anymore?
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Sep 16, 2016 18:50
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:you've never even been disappointed by what you wound up with in the end, or been stuck waiting on a delayed project to the point you don't want the thing you paid for anymore? Delays dont matter to me. Making things takes time, I dont care. I do get irritated if something mass-produced that already exists has a long delay due to incompetence (like an Amazon vendor), but not someone creating a new thing. Being disappointing in the quality of something need a big dose of "get over it" for the most part. Ive been disappointed by games and items Ive ordered from Steam, GoG, newegg, Amazon, etc... why is that a special KS problem?
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Sep 16, 2016 19:20
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Kai Tave posted:I don't want to hear you asking about pesky things like delivery dates or why your stuff is late." I hate to nitpick but if you're going to distort things to try blow this up into some big deal, I'll have to correct you. Nobody's stuff was late. Book was promised in August, people got them in August. The whole kerfuffle happened in August. Look, if you want a Viking LARP for exactly 10 people, and you back this Kickstarter, then (judging by his past Kickstarters and pre-orders) you will get a well-designed game with materials of the highest quality. You will get it on time. And moreover, you will get it practically at cost - he puts out these games for the love of the community without making much if any money off of them. Sounds loving amazing, right? The only catch? If you complain, he will be a bit rude. If you try to blow up a slightly rude comment into a huge big debate, he will refund you rather than engage in that debate. And this time, he's being transparent about that. Those are just the facts. If that doesn't sound good to you, don't back the Kickstarter. If it sounds good, do back it. Me, I'm on the fence - I know that the thing is going to be great, but when the hell am I going to get exactly 9 friends together for a LARP? Never, that's when. So I need to ask myself if it is worth having just to have and reading to mine for design inspiration.
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Sep 16, 2016 19:21
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Kai Tave posted:Luke Crane isn't a scammer but it's still kind of absurd that the guy Kickstarter put in charge of whatever he's in charge of would decide that the best way to present a crowdfunded project is to say "if you back this then your job is to sit down and shut the gently caress up until I say otherwise, I don't want to hear you asking about pesky things like delivery dates or why your stuff is late."
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Sep 16, 2016 19:22
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:very high chance that nothing will ever be delivered Saint Isaias Boner posted:you've never even been disappointed by what you wound up with in the end, or been stuck waiting on a delayed project to the point you don't want the thing you paid for anymore? These are not the same thing. He clearly said he's never had something simply not be delivered, and let's be honest, amidst the hundreds and hundreds of campaigns run in the Game category in let's say any given year, how many actually COMPLETELY do not fulfill? Yeah, there is a line drawn somewhere differently for each person as to when they consider something late enough to be a complete failure, but having backed ~50 game campaigns in the last few years, I haven't had a single one just end with "nothing ever being delivered" as you said.
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Sep 16, 2016 19:22
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Merauder posted:These are not the same thing. He clearly said he's never had something simply not be delivered, and let's be honest, amidst the hundreds and hundreds of campaigns run in the Game category in let's say any given year, how many actually COMPLETELY do not fulfill? Yeah, there is a line drawn somewhere differently for each person as to when they consider something late enough to be a complete failure, but having backed ~50 game campaigns in the last few years, I haven't had a single one just end with "nothing ever being delivered" as you said. the thing I said that he was responding to was Saint Isaias Boner posted:very high chance that nothing will ever be delivered or that it'll be crap.
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Sep 16, 2016 19:24
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:the thing I said that he was responding to was Right, but he omitted the "or it'll be crap" part, and said that he's never had something "never be delivered". If he responded to your entire post and said "I've never had this happen", then sure, I think questioning that he's never had a poor product be delivered might be worth second guessing. But he didn't.
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Sep 16, 2016 19:48
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I've had both things happen, but I've backed a number of kickstarters (including a couple of the failed ones listed earlier). I have avoided backing anything in the video games category for a few years now though, simply because that category is even more prone to failure or terrible results than tabletop games. If I back a bad tabletop role playing or card game, I can usually at the least steal a few mechanics or ideas from it if it comes out at all. If I back a bad video game, I'm stuck with a bad video game, since usually those don't have anything unique about them past, maybe, the premise (and I could get that for free). Hell, if I back a bad minis game, unless it's truly terrible I can just flip it on eBay for around what I paid for it. Now, if it doesn't come out that's a different story, and usually I just chalk those up to eh, unless they took me for a substantial sum (which hasn't happened yet). As long as it's clear that they didn't just piss the money away on parties, hookers, and/or drugs, I'm usually okay with it.
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Sep 16, 2016 20:01
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thelazyblank posted:I'm pretty sure it's allowed as long as you don't take their money. The creator can decide who is and isn't a customer. It's lovely business and lovely people skills, but I would imagine it's not against the rules to be a terrible person as long as backers are made financially whole either with products or refunds. Refunding a backer without their consent is a pretty shady thing to do though, especially since it effectively silences criticism on the kickstarter because discontent backers can't comment on the project's page anymore. It seems like allowing something like this would be leaving a problematic door open.
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Sep 16, 2016 20:21
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Jimbozig posted:I hate to nitpick but if you're going to distort things to try blow this up into some big deal, I'll have to correct you. Nobody's stuff was late. Book was promised in August, people got them in August. The whole kerfuffle happened in August. If you're going to try and take me to task for this then you should probably also elaborate on the details of why people found themselves confused by the way he handled shipping in the first place and also the fact the nobody who wondered why some folks were receiving packages but no shipping info while others had info but no packaging was especially rude to him in order to merit the response he decided was appropriate, but doing so wouldn't really help reinforce the narrative that Luke Crane is the poor put-upon artiste having to endure the unreasonable demands of his whiny backers.
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Sep 16, 2016 20:26
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Nuns with Guns posted:Refunding a backer without their consent is a pretty shady thing to do though, especially since it effectively silences criticism on the kickstarter because discontent backers can't comment on the project's page anymore. It seems like allowing something like this would be leaving a problematic door open. I dunno. It's definitely lovely, counter-productive and generally not a good idea, but it's just as easy to write a blog and link it somewhere to make your comments, and have them gain traction if they're valid in any sense. I don't think Kickstarter's intent was to be anything more than a marketplace, so as long as they aren't actively censoring, encouraging censoring or anything of that level, it's definitely legal and within the rules of a marketplace for an individual to lose money because you're a grouchy viking wizard who wants to take out frustration on your own wallet. It's unfortunate that they aren't trying to push people to be good businesspeople, but there's no reasonable way for Kickstarter to do this. Well, unless they hire a small department of people just to handle refund disputes, which isn't going to happen unless they're forced to.
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Sep 16, 2016 20:37
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thelazyblank posted:I dunno. It's definitely lovely, counter-productive and generally not a good idea, but it's just as easy to write a blog and link it somewhere to make your comments, and have them gain traction if they're valid in any sense. I don't think Kickstarter's intent was to be anything more than a marketplace, so as long as they aren't actively censoring, encouraging censoring or anything of that level, it's definitely legal and within the rules of a marketplace for an individual to lose money because you're a grouchy viking wizard who wants to take out frustration on your own wallet. I think there are some valid times when delivering an unasked for refund is an appropriate response. Like that guy who paid $200 for the Blue Rose Kickstarter in order to try and get his take-that knockoff Kratos with his child bride and owl named Trigger Warning included in the book who went on to raise a fuss when they edited it (as fan-submitted content like this is always subject to) to be less of a turd in the punch bowl. That's a situation where I think it's arguably reasonable to simply give someone a refund and tell them "it's not us, it's you." Asking what the deal with your order is and being unhappy that you got Luke Crane's rear end in a top hat Wizard Play-By-Mail in reply isn't as compelling a reason imo. The fact that refunding people unhappy with you just so happens to lock them off from commenting on the project is an extra layer of assholishness.
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Sep 16, 2016 21:45
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If you don't want to deal with people wondering where their product is, you shouldn't be loving asking people to fund its production. I don't think that's a very difficult concept. e: also I'm sad that some people didn't get their flying assault butts because I definitely got all of mine
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Sep 16, 2016 21:58
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I'm going to be the guy who goes one step farther and say "if you don't want to hear customer complaints, don't sell anything." Like, in all honesty, it's just a reality of doing business. Doesn't mean you need to acquiesce, but there is no way it won't happen at some point.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:06
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Luke Crane always struck me as a dick but not a shitlord. He's like the Harlan Ellison or Hideki Kamiya type, the kind of person that is a bundle of raw nerves in the shape of a human that you interact with at your own peril, but it's not like he's going to put you on a big list of people to drive out of the industry or something. He's just a crusty, grumpy wizard. Putting him in a basically a PR position was maybe not the best choice Kickstarter has ever made.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:10
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Kai Tave posted:If you're going to try and take me to task for this then you should probably also elaborate on the details of why people found themselves confused by the way he handled shipping in the first place and also the fact the nobody who wondered why some folks were receiving packages but no shipping info while others had info but no packaging was especially rude to him in order to merit the response he decided was appropriate, but doing so wouldn't really help reinforce the narrative that Luke Crane is the poor put-upon artiste having to endure the unreasonable demands of his whiny backers. No, it's true - people received a notice that a shipping label had been created and then nothing for a while. So they were legitimately confused and asked about it. He was mildly rude in response. I'm not disputing that - I'm just trying to put it in context. That rudeness is a downside to backing his projects, but there are also many upsides. The stupid wizard-speak was another downside, but thank goodness he isn't doing that for this one. For me, the rudeness is such a tiny downside compared to getting a high quality product on time and at a good price. Everyone else has their own priorities and can give as much or as little weight to rudeness and professionalism as they like.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:14
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I think it's been fairly well demonstrated by this point in history that NOT being an rear end in a top hat doesn't actually cost you anything, and since plenty of other tradgame creators are capable of making quality games without being an rear end in a top hat along with it I'm going to weigh someone's lifestyle choice to deliberately be a dickhead accordingly. Maybe if Luke Crane was the only person making games for nerds I might feel differently but he ain't so I don't.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:28
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Covok posted:I'm going to be the guy who goes one step farther and say "if you don't want to hear customer complaints, don't sell anything." Like, in all honesty, it's just a reality of doing business. Doesn't mean you need to acquiesce, but there is no way it won't happen at some point. I definitely agree, though I had 'kickstarter is not a store' in mind there. Still the same principle; you pretty much have to be willing to deal with people who aren't happy with what you're doing. Doesn't mean you gotta like it, or that they're necessarily right, because gently caress 'the customer is always right' but this reeks of an entitled child throwing a temper tantrum.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:31
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I've noticed people very rarely treat Kickstarter backing as "just" a transaction. Except maybe people who buy minis. There's an element of wanting to feel like you're a part of the project. Maybe that's not so healthy for them; but to have a guy flat out deny them that feeling because it's too much of a hassle for him sure seems salty.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:36
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Just from reading some of the stuff he's written I get the sense that there is no medical procedure known to humankind that could extricate Luke Crane's giant head from his cavernous rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:47
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Litany Unheard posted:Doesn't that one webcomic guy get a few grand a month whether he actually produces the pages or not? Fleecing nerds is a stable industry. The Pictures for Sad Children artist? I don't think so. Are you referring to some other completely different artist who hasn't been mentioned at all so far? Maybe be a little more specific? Also, the gold standard for tabletop KS fraud is Ken Whitman: http://notanotherdime.blogspot.com/
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Sep 16, 2016 22:53
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clockworkjoe posted:The Pictures for Sad Children artist? I don't think so. Are you referring to some other completely different artist who hasn't been mentioned at all so far? Maybe be a little more specific? I think that's Aaron Diaz of Dresden Codak they're referring to.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:55
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Arivia posted:I think that's Aaron Diaz of Dresden Codak they're referring to. Yup, that's the one. "The cybermessiah is a sexy Asian chick missing her limbs and also I draw her naked for reasons." I just looked up his patreon. Diaz gets $4600 a month and most of his patrons don't care if he produces anything.
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Sep 16, 2016 23:42
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Kai Tave posted:I think it's been fairly well demonstrated by this point in history that NOT being an rear end in a top hat doesn't actually cost you anything, and since plenty of other tradgame creators are capable of making quality games without being an rear end in a top hat along with it I'm going to weigh someone's lifestyle choice to deliberately be a dickhead accordingly. Maybe if Luke Crane was the only person making games for nerds I might feel differently but he ain't so I don't. Nerd games do not have that kind of interchangeability to me. The difference between Burning Wheel or one of my other favourites and a game that is good but not a favourite is - for me - very large. And I don't play often enough, so it's important to me that what time and effort I do spend on RPGs is with my favourites.
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Sep 16, 2016 23:45
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Litany Unheard posted:Doesn't that one webcomic guy get a few grand a month whether he actually produces the pages or not? Fleecing nerds is a stable industry.
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Sep 17, 2016 01:01
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clockworkjoe posted:Also, the gold standard for tabletop KS fraud is Ken Whitman: http://notanotherdime.blogspot.com/ He's the jackass who signed Samantha Swords for the vaporware Spinward Traveller project. Don't waste that woman. Also gently caress that guy for promising us Traveller media and not following through.
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Sep 17, 2016 03:05
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mllaneza posted:He's the jackass who signed Samantha Swords for the vaporware Spinward Traveller project. Don't waste that woman. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/d20e/spinward-traveller-tv-pilot/posts/1678420 What do you mean? This is looking pretty amazing.
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