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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4KBPaS-1PU This has probably been posted many times before but I'm not reading through 10 million star trek posts to verify that.
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Sep 18, 2016 16:45
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Duckbag posted:I'd give you grief for not pacing yourself, but this might be the best way to get through it. I was going pretty strong for the past year but around Fair Haven, I hit a wall. I skipped it and got as far as Borg kids (which not that bad, all things considered), but the problem is that once you've given yourself permission to skip the dumb and boring episodes, there's really no reason to watch Voyager at all. I started skipping ahead during boring episodes but I shamed myself into going back and watching them properly. Blade_of_tyshalle posted:If you are self-harming or experiencing suicidal thoughts, please seek immediate treatment. My tv has nearly died a few times.
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Sep 18, 2016 17:31
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MikeJF posted:Buran had certain advantages and superior capabilities due to having been designed and built much later, having less ridiculous requirements loaded onto the design, and being able to look at the experience of the US shuttle program, but in other areas they still lagged behind US technology. Ultimately, though, none of it can make up for the fact that the giant reusable spaceplane as a concept was fundamentally flawed and ultimately a huge boondoggle, and Russia was just making their own copy as a reactionary move. On the other hand, nothing before or since has matched its down mass capabilities. We can't build payload faring big enough to contain a heat shield that's very large. Would be pretty great if we could bring down Keyhole satellites to cannibalize for their buses.
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Sep 18, 2016 17:32
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4KBPaS-1PU Is there such a thing as a punchable voice, like a punchable face? Because if so, the Film Theory guy has it in spades. But regardless of that, this is a stretch. His point about all the stories being told from Starfleet POV is important, but I guess that's why I like DS9 so much more than other Trek. Between Kira, Quark, Garak, and even the Klingons, we get a much more complete picture that is less homogenous and  Fascist. Hell, DS9 is one of the only places we get a good glimpse of civilian Federation life. All the other series having Starfleet insignias stamped on everything makes sense because they're, you know, military vessels. (And don't give me that hair-splitting bullshit about the Enterprise not being a military vessel.) It would be weird if they didn't have the insignia on everything.
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Sep 18, 2016 19:05
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actually, I think you'll find that all spacefuture societies are turbofascist, hth yes, i know about the word filter
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Sep 18, 2016 19:19
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Duckbag posted:I'd give you grief for not pacing yourself, but this might be the best way to get through it. I was going pretty strong for the past year but around Fair Haven, I hit a wall. I skipped it and got as far as Borg kids (which not that bad, all things considered), but the problem is that once you've given yourself permission to skip the dumb and boring episodes, there's really no reason to watch Voyager at all. OTOH, not skipping around means you have to watch all the Chakotay episodes. 
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Sep 18, 2016 19:28
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:actually, I think you'll find that all spacefuture societies are turbofascist, hth
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Sep 18, 2016 20:59
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My friend who had never seen Star Trek and wanted episode recommendations just watched a bunch of TOS episodes, highlights of her reactions-quote:- good GOD do I love hokey ‘60s kitsch, I have made a good decision In summary she loves it and I am so happy! Can't wait till she gets to DS9.
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Sep 18, 2016 21:06
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I really like Season One of The Next Generation. It almost a different show from all the rest of the modern Star Trek shows, and I think it's a show I might have preferred watching. It's the only season of modern Star Trek that seems to try and feel like the original series. Sure, part of that is reused scripts, but I think a lot of it is the energy and approach to the show. After season two or so, you don't see as much of that connection. The slightly too on the nose morality plays, the winking at the camera on occassion, the corny conceptually interesting planets of the week... The characters are a little confused, but they're also more vibrant. Crusher barely has a personality in some of the later seasons. She has a bit too much 'doctor mom' going on in the first season, but she also is clearly being used as a McCoy analogue. She's morally outraged in private a few times with Picard, she has really strong opinions and she uses her autonomous authority more than she seems to later. Beard Riker is a more mature person, but I really like season one Riker. He's over the top, but it's enjoyable. He's clearly a man that takes his job seriously, but is a bit of a trouble maker. He's still pretty good later, and he gets better at holding a sense of authority, but he also gets kind of grumpy. Geordi ended up being great as Chief Engineer, but they lost something with it. Geordi was really neat as the inexperienced command officer. The two times he was in command both resulted in great scenes. I like early pinnochio Data. I like the angle that he is a child and doesn't understand humanity, rather than what he became. Later he was more of a tragic figure fighting for something he could never achieve. I really enjoyed how into things he got in The Big Goodbye. The whole thing is played with more of a sense of wonder, if that makes sense. The universe feels wild and open. The acting was more theatrical. The lighting wasn't as boringly bright and flat as it would later become. And really, the music. The music made such a difference. It didn't completely go away after season one, but season one was the only one that was really scored like the original series. I think the scoring also gave them cover for some of the over-acting that I kind of enjoy. You can get away with chewing some scenery when you've got a dramatic musical theme playing over top. T.C. fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 19, 2016 |
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Sep 19, 2016 00:12
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T.C. posted:Stuff I agree on a lot of that. I also kind of think there was a missed opportunity to build on the characters and their backstories as they were originally introduced, particularly with Picard and Crusher. I like-- at least in theory-- all the melodrama surrounding Jack Crusher's death, the love triangle, and Wesley Crusher kind of becoming the surrogate son Picard never wanted. Sometimes I think it would be interesting to see a reboot following through on those elements as an arc without the disappearing/re-appearing actress and rainbow-colored sweaters.
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Sep 19, 2016 00:41
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Watched Undiscovered Country again (the best TOS movie) for the first time in a while, is there a reason every scene with Rene Auberjonois was conveniently deleted in the theatrical version? Even the "big reveal" at the end.. what the hell? Curious why they did this.
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Sep 19, 2016 00:43
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DarthJeebus posted:Watched Undiscovered Country again (the best TOS movie) for the first time in a while, is there a reason every scene with Rene Auberjonois was conveniently deleted in the theatrical version? Even the "big reveal" at the end.. what the hell? Curious why they did this. The versions on Netflix and Amazon are also edited. But back when it was on HBO every day I remember the "that's human blood" scene from the end quite vividly. Edit: I've started Endgame. I watched it when it originally aired so we'll see if it's as bad as I remember. Rhyno fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Sep 19, 2016 |
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Sep 19, 2016 00:46
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Colonel Odo was definitely in the VHS version, at least. My DVD version has weird flashbacks during the Spock/Valeris meld scene to remind you who the characters where.
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Sep 19, 2016 02:14
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Zurui posted:Colonel Odo was definitely in the VHS version, at least. My DVD version has weird flashbacks during the Spock/Valeris meld scene to remind you who the characters where. Yea I had it on VHS and I probably watched it 100 times as a kid. My girlfriend recently watched DS9 with me and really liked it, I was excited to see if she would recognize Rene when we watched ST:6 but he never even showed up. At least she recognized Dorn and the dad from that 70s show.
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Sep 19, 2016 02:44
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Were you watching it on Netflix? Now I want to go verify this.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:00
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Gau posted:Were you watching it on Netflix? Now I want to go verify this. Amazon prime. If it's on Netflix I can't see it for some reason. The only movies I see are Nemesis and First Contact.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:03
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DarthJeebus posted:Amazon prime. If it's on Netflix I can't see it for some reason. The only movies I see are Nemesis and First Contact. Netflix removed a bunch of the ST movies last month. Hulu still has most of them.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:05
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It was like that on Netflix when they had it.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:09
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DarthJeebus posted:Watched Undiscovered Country again (the best TOS movie) for the first time in a while, is there a reason every scene with Rene Auberjonois was conveniently deleted in the theatrical version? Even the "big reveal" at the end.. what the hell? Curious why they did this. Roddenberry demanded a lot of the "militant faction in Starfleet" stuff be cut, despite being, y'know the point of the loving movie. They put it back for the versions released after he died, though.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:42
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After The War posted:Roddenberry demanded a lot of the "militant faction in Starfleet" stuff be cut, despite being, y'know the point of the loving movie. They put it back for the versions released after he died, though. It's such hogwash too, because TOS Starfleet was pretty military, even if notably relaxed. Hell, the writer's bible directly compares the Enterprise's crew to a navy one, and condems the kind of person who'd want to see the captain "make love instead of shelling asiatic ports".  I can't shut up about what a dick Roddenberry is.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:45
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Ah yea, of course Roddenberry wouldn't want Starfleet to resemble actual human beings who do bad things sometimes. Forgot that the movie came out the year he died.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:47
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My memory is a bit sketchy (I was 9 when I saw it) but I'm 95% certain the Colonel West stuff played in theaters. Then again, I may just be projecting it back since I watched that film religiously throughout my teenage years. Pretty certain I still have the worn-out tape somewhere.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:55
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T.C. posted:I really like Season One of The Next Generation. It almost a different show from all the rest of the modern Star Trek shows, and I think it's a show I might have preferred watching. You make some good points, but I think the problem is that the ideas Roddenberry had developed during his Years In The Desert were fundamentally at odds with each other. He was simultaneously unmoored from the dullness of contemporary TV and hopelessly behind the times when it came to running a production. Roddenberry came down from the mount and proclaimed that the 24th century is a more evolved time, with a crew that's more grown up and serious, etc, etc. The problem is, it doesn't mesh at all with the golly-gee-whiz after-school special approach the show takes with characters like Geordi and Data. Characterization in general is all over the place it's painfully obvious when the writers flip someone into exposition mode. Sure, you get fun balls-to-to-wall weird premises, but just as often feel like they were written for a 50 minute runtime and then crammed into the 44 minutes at the last second. When it comes to the lighting and music, I half-agree with you again. It's much more exciting and cinematic but at the same time feels far more slapdash. The ridiculousness of having to tape black construction paper to the LCARS panels at the back of the bridge are the quintessential example of a production where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
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Sep 19, 2016 04:07
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To be sure, this is is something I've heard for ages, but Memory Alpha has the dreaded "Citation Needed" and this later on:Memory Alpha posted:The perceived racism toward the Klingons was of great concern to Roddenberry as well, as he felt there was no place for it in his Star Trek universe, but his considerations were entirely ignored by both Meyer and Nimoy. Aghast, he then summoned a meeting, even though Roddenberry had no formal say in the movie whatsoever. Complete with heavy legal representation, a very charged meeting followed between the two sides, which quickly turned into a shouting match as Meyer finally unleashed his years of pent up frustration with Roddenberry in full. In later years Meyer came to regret his behavior. "He was not well, and maybe there were more tactful ways of dealing with it, because at the end of the day, I was going to go out and make the movie. I didn't have to take him on. Not my finest hour.", a rueful Meyer recounted in 2011. Roddenberry died a few months later. ([4]; Star Trek Movie Memories, 1995, pp. 366-367) Memory Alpha posted:Gene Roddenberry saw the movie two days before he died. According to William Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories (1995, p. 394), Roddenberry, after seeing the film, gave thumbs up all around, and then went back and phoned his lawyer, Leonard Maizlish, angrily demanding a full quarter-hour of the film's more militaristic moments be removed from the film, but Gene died before his lawyer could present his demands to the studio. If anyone has a more complete breakdown of events, I'd love to hear it. T.C. posted:I really like Season One of The Next Generation. It almost a different show from all the rest of the modern Star Trek shows, and I think it's a show I might have preferred watching.  
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Sep 19, 2016 04:08
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I thought Gene had little to nothing to do with any of the post-TMP movies?
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Sep 19, 2016 04:24
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I thought Gene had little to nothing to do with any of the post-TMP movies? He was officially something like an adviser. The crew had to listen to his input, but were under no obligation at all to actually do what he said.
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Sep 19, 2016 04:25
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I thought Gene had little to nothing to do with any of the post-TMP movies?
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Sep 19, 2016 05:15
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Rhyno posted:It was like that on Netflix when they had it. That's funny, when I watched it on Netflix last I was specifically waiting for that scene to see how horrible the change was and the flashbacks never came.
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Sep 19, 2016 06:03
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The cold open for "Violations" is so bad. It ends with some dude looking to the side while sinister music plays. Why is sinister music playing? He hasn't even done anything! This is going to be a bad episode, isn't it?
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Sep 19, 2016 06:35
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4KBPaS-1PU Well your wrong there, because even for these threads that was embarrassing rubbish. The bloke doesn't understand what Fascism is (seriously his definition is simply incorrect, aside from name checking Hitler and Mussolini there's nothing there that's unique to Fascism) he's also wrong about Fascists hating capitalism, they hated the effects of a society dominated by it. Fascist economics is based on class collaboration and uniting of labour and capital. Hitler really hated and distrusted financial capitalism but that was because he believed it was controlled by the Jews of Wall street. Fascist economics depended on big businesses and heavy industry to build their regimes. There were company owned workshops in the concentration camps so committed was the state to a partnership with private industry. We also see plenty of occasions were property is owned privately in the Federation. Capitalism isn't built on money its built on the concept of private ownership of the means of production. He's also being completely dishonest in his assertions about the show. We do actually see other view points beyond Star Fleet. DS9 was the best at it but even in TNG and TOS we saw the viewpoints of other races like the Klingons, Romulans and the Ferengi. Hell the seven season arc of TNG is humanity and its role in the Federation being judged by Q an alien being. Even Voyager tried to do this with its long running bad guys like the Kazon and the Borg. Then there's the colonisation thing, he undermines himself by bringing up real world colonialism. That simply isn't how the Federation operates, we see plenty of episodes where the Enterprise comes upon primitive worlds and leaves them alone, but if they were like Europeans in Africa they'd love these worlds as they'd be the easiest to conquer and exploit. Also non Starfleet humans having their own ships was kindof a big part of early DS9, the Maquis were turning their civilian ships into a battle fleet and Sisko dated and married an independent freighter captain. And ideology, all the evidence cited is incredibly generic collectivism, you may as well call team work a Fascist concept. The Fasces the bundle of sticks with an axe blade was the symbol of Italian Fascism, but they nicked it from Rome. Now despite Mussolini's constant bragging about building a new Roman Empire you'd have to be drunk to think the Roman republic was anything like Mussolini's Italy. TL:DR its a good thing he put this up on youtube and didn't submit this as a paper because he would not get a good grade.
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Sep 19, 2016 06:40
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Yeah, all the federation colonies we see seem to be of the "actual uninhabited-by-intelligent-beings" sort. In principle there'd be no reason for the Federation to build permanent structures on any M-class world that wasn't inhabited by a Federation member (other than scientific or recreational facilities, or possibly low-impact mining) but it's understandable that the Federation didn't embrace the truths of Sideism and Ereism.
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Sep 19, 2016 07:31
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Baka-nin posted:Well your wrong there, because even for these threads that was embarrassing rubbish. The bloke doesn't understand what Fascism is (seriously his definition is simply incorrect, aside from name checking Hitler and Mussolini there's nothing there that's unique to Fascism) he's also wrong about Fascists hating capitalism, they hated the effects of a society dominated by it. Fascist economics is based on class collaboration and uniting of labour and capital. Hitler really hated and distrusted financial capitalism but that was because he believed it was controlled by the Jews of Wall street. Fascist economics depended on big businesses and heavy industry to build their regimes. There were company owned workshops in the concentration camps so committed was the state to a partnership with private industry. People on the internet don't understand what fascism is. I knew that deep down even before I started watching the video that "fascism" was probably going to mean "the kind of authoritarianism that just happens on a military vessel." Umberto Eco's essay "Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt" should be required reading in high school history classes. That would fix a lot of this. For reference: http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fascism.html Anyway, I just watched a couple of ENT episodes yesterday: "Silent Enemy" and "Dear Doctor." "Silent Enemy" was alright, and I suspect we'll see more of the weird gray-type aliens that showed up. Or not, you know, because.... Enterprise!  "Dear Doctor" was rad as hell, and not just because it's an overdue episode about Phlox. It's the first episode that really felt like classic Trek: a character-driven ethical dilemma with a parallel world/alternate reality scenario driving it. I've been enjoying ENT, mainly because I have such low expectations for it, but this one set a new bar for the show's potential. I liked it up there with classic TNG and DS9 episodes, and not just, "meh, this is pretty good for ENT" or "well, at least this isn't Voyager."
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Sep 19, 2016 17:59
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Railing Kill posted:"Dear Doctor" was rad as hell, and not just because it's an overdue episode about Phlox. It's the first episode that really felt like classic Trek: a character-driven ethical dilemma with a parallel world/alternate reality scenario driving it. I've been enjoying ENT, mainly because I have such low expectations for it, but this one set a new bar for the show's potential. I liked it up there with classic TNG and DS9 episodes, and not just, "meh, this is pretty good for ENT" or "well, at least this isn't Voyager." Treating EVOLUTION!!!! like it's some kind of moral force isn't an ethical dilemma, it's just antiscientific stupidity.
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Sep 19, 2016 18:23
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This is the first time I've ever seen anybody treat "Dear Doctor" like the implications of that episode are anything but horrific
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Sep 19, 2016 18:40
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Dear Doctor is great because it puts in perspective just how terrible Enterprise is, that one of its most interesting and memorable episodes is the one where the captain and the doctor go to a strange new world, seek out new life and new civilizations, and promptly decide to commit a genocide of omission upon them. e: like seriously, the only thing I could think of after I watched Dear Doctor for the first time was "holy poo poo, if Dr McCoy were here he'd have slapped the poo poo out of all these smug murderous bastards". skasion fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Sep 19, 2016 |
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Sep 19, 2016 19:16
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The implications are pretty terrible, but it's at least more interesting than most of what I've seen so far. It would have been marginally less terrible if it weren't so obvious that the "less developed people" were actually pretty well developed and civilized. That makes the Neanderthal comparison fall pretty flat. I didn't like that part of it, but I did like that the episode was more like TOS and some TNG in that it presented a dilemma to the captain and he had to deal with it (in the worst way possible). And, mainly, Phlox being the bomb and yelling at Archer ("yelling" here used loosely) was rad. No one besides T'Pol has stood up to him before.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:27
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Yeah, that's what I mean when I say it shows how bad the show is in general. The fact that there's an actual issue going on and that the captain and crew actually have to come up with a solution for it puts it ahead of every single previous episode of Enterprise, even though their solution is LITERALLY worse than Hitler.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:29
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I've been watching DS9 through for the first time since they were on BBC2 as they came out. I'd always enjoyed trek, but not hugely - but by season four I'm thinking holy poo poo this show is fantastic. That transition to season three and four makes for one hell of a series, better plots, better serialised stories and even better really dumb one off joke episodes and monster of the week episodes. The Visitor is absolutely stellar, and then the ridiculous mock-50s acting of Little Green Men, and Worf wandering around with a stick up his rear end. loving great work, really getting into it.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:34
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Does anyone else really like that episode of TNG where Alexander comes back from the future to make his kid self a warrior? I've always been fond of it but never see it brought up.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:37
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skasion posted:Yeah, that's what I mean when I say it shows how bad the show is in general. The fact that there's an actual issue going on and that the captain and crew actually have to come up with a solution for it puts it ahead of every single previous episode of Enterprise, even though their solution is LITERALLY worse than Hitler. Exactly. It makes me want to watch DS9, actually. At least DS9 has the decency to dwell on such a terrible decision with a bit more compassion and reflection. Speaking of which, lenoon posted:I've been watching DS9 through for the first time since they were on BBC2 as they came out. I'd always enjoyed trek, but not hugely - but by season four I'm thinking holy poo poo this show is fantastic. That transition to season three and four makes for one hell of a series, better plots, better serialised stories and even better really dumb one off joke episodes and monster of the week episodes. The Visitor is absolutely stellar, and then the ridiculous mock-50s acting of Little Green Men, and Worf wandering around with a stick up his rear end. loving great work, really getting into it. DS9 is literally the only Trek that I could recommend to non-sci fi viewers in any great amount. Not all of it, obviously, but a great deal of it is just good, solid TV regardless of genre or Trek tropes. There's a few episodes in TOS and TNG I could make the same recommendation for, but there's way more of DS9 that transcends its genre and franchise.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:50
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