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Jose Oquendo posted:side note: Does anyone in the movie ever question why T'Challa, the ruler of a sovereign nation, goes on a manhunt on foreign soil? That would be like President Obama cruising around Europe mowing down ISIS operatives. It would be kind of a big deal. Yeah, he should just use drones.  His role is pretty questionable in general. They mention he's 'elected' but it still appears to be hereditary. It'd be more like if GW Bush pushed military action as revenge for a dead G Bush I. well why not fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 09:27
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Jose Oquendo posted:The Accords don't matter. As soon as Thanos shows up, Ross is gonna be 'oh poo poo we need the Avengers. You're all allowed to do what you gotta do" Superman's death doesn't matter. As soon as Darkseid shows up, he'll come back via some box or something, if this is an issue, it is one intrinsic and hard to break out of when it comes to adaptions from serialised material that almost always are about returning to the status quo at the climax of any story arc. Pirate Jet posted:Saying that King T'Chaka dying will have consequences is like saying Uncle Ben dying will have consequences. Uncle Ben dying does have consequences, immense consequences. It forms the entire moral backbone and perspective of the character and informs every aspect of his decision making going forward. The biggest crime of the The Amazing Spider-Man films is how they shuffled around elements of that death to make it inconsequential to the character but yet included it anyway. TetsuoTW posted:No mostly just about your pages of bad posts. Snakes posts are mostly pretty thoughtful and good, but he has engaged in the sisyphean task of criticizing Batman v Superman in this thread where there is a lot of defensiveness about that particular film, for reasons which I am still trying to understand.
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Sep 20, 2016 10:01
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Karloff posted:Snakes posts are mostly pretty thoughtful and good, but he has engaged in the sisyphean task of criticizing Batman v Superman in this thread where there is a lot of defensiveness about that particular film, for reasons which I am still trying to understand. Yes, I too wonder why there are two sides to a discussion in a discussion thread.
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Sep 20, 2016 10:12
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Karloff posted:Superman's death doesn't matter. As soon as Darkseid shows up, he'll come back via some box or something, if this is an issue, it is one intrinsic and hard to break out of when it comes to adaptions from serialised material that almost always are about returning to the status quo at the climax of any story arc. And uh, I don't see how it could be surprising that fans of BvS have ended up defensive about it on the internet. Have you seen the internet?
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Sep 20, 2016 10:23
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Karloff posted:Snakes posts are mostly pretty thoughtful and good This is just bad faith.
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Sep 20, 2016 10:24
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porfiria posted:I can't comprehend actively liking CA: CW. Three minutes into it I was like, "I've seen this all before. I've seen this movie eight times now. Nothing's going to happen, no one's going to die, the action will be passable and totally forgettable, the quips will be weirdly lukewarm." And guess what? I found it fun and good, unlike Ultron or Beavis. quote:Surprise twist: The Avengers team up with Thanos to subjugate the planet. Batman and the Justice League have to take down Superman, Iron Man, and Thanos who's subbing in for the unknowable horror of Darkseid. When all seems lost, a martial artist, super fighting robot, and Wolverine appear to save the day. Batman v Superman v Marvel v Capcom RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 13:10
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RBA Starblade posted:I found it fun and good, unlike Ultron or Beavis. Can we get Bayonetta in there?
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Sep 20, 2016 13:24
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greatn posted:Can we get Bayonetta in there? She was filmed but was cut for the downloadable extended edition.
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Sep 20, 2016 13:26
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"And now with the infinity stones, witness as your universe ends!" Giant heel boot made of hair pops out of a portal knocking the gauntlet out of Thanos hand, camera pans to see Bayonetta "Naughty boy. Don't be cheeky or you'll have to get a spanking!"
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Sep 20, 2016 13:30
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greatn posted:"And now with the infinity stones, witness as your universe ends!" Wouldn't be any worse than Angela from Spawn suddenly showing up in Marvel comics.
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Sep 20, 2016 14:09
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Martman posted:My expectation is that Superman himself will be changed by the experience. Everyone knows he'll be back, albeit maybe some real bad stuff could go down before that happens, but the interesting part is that he might come back a pretty different guy. And, separately (and I'm not trying to contrast this from any other movie), there's the dramatic weight in the movie itself of the main character letting himself be killed. I mean, he definitely doesn't know he's coming back. Interesting, but I guess then it still raises the problem that we are criticizing/examining released films by speculating about what their follow ups will do, which isn't preferable but is perhaps inevitable as blockbuster films are embracing serialization like never before. Both Civil War and Batman v Superman both end on a bleaker note than usual and both go someway towards resolving that bleakness with either a phone in a box, or a final shot showing that Superman is still really alive. And just as you argue that Superman may never be the same, it can be similarly argued that neither will the relationship of Stark and Rogers. Either way, we are just speculating, both films end mostly end exactly the same way, a big bit of sadness but a little hope as well. And yes, the internet did give Batman v Superman a bit of a kicking (as did the mainstream press, as well as a lot of people involved in the making of the film), but I feel this was entirely justified and will hopefully result in Justice League and other films going forward being much better.
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Sep 20, 2016 14:12
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Karloff posted:Interesting, but I guess then it still raises the problem that we are criticizing/examining released films by speculating about what their follow ups will do, which isn't preferable but is perhaps inevitable as blockbuster films are embracing serialization like never before. Both Civil War and Batman v Superman both end on a bleaker note than usual and both go someway towards resolving that bleakness with either a phone in a box, or a final shot showing that Superman is still really alive. And just as you argue that Superman may never be the same, it can be similarly argued that neither will the relationship of Stark and Rogers. Either way, we are just speculating, both films end mostly end exactly the same way, a big bit of sadness but a little hope as well. Except, see, unless Marvel's Formula has significantly changed, we KNOW nothing's going to change because nothing has ever changed. We're not speculating, we're extrapolating from years of previous pattern. Like or dislike the Man of Steel movies, we are able to see that there is a direct impact on the next movie in pretty interesting ways. There's less to assume from, but MoS to BvS had something. When Bucky finally thaws we know it'll be even less interesting than Encino Man. Cap and Stark already made up by the end of the movie. That wasn't a 'our beliefs are incompatible so I'm going to take you down' it was a 'Hey Baby, I'm still a little upset. I'm staying over at my mom's for a few days until I cool down.' Drifter fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 14:24
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It's not like people are arguing in bad faith either. This is the second DC film set in the same universe so how these films have a lasting effect on the characters and events are still up in the air. The transition Clark went through in Man of Steel and the fallout from his battle with Zod carried over to Batman v Superman. There have been over a dozen Marvel films in their universe and rarely do events ever matter or carry forward or effect characters in a meaningful way. Maybe DC will end up like that too eventually, but as it is now, DCs outings have shown that each film mattered. Batman V Superman felt like a sequel to Man of Steel. It starting with the Metropolis from Bruce's angle was incredibly effective.
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Sep 20, 2016 14:27
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Jose Oquendo posted:
There's actually a deleted scene where T'Challa is in custody and handcuffed to a table and Black Widow basically tells him "You hosed up majorly. You just caused millions of dollars in destruction and actively impeded a U.N. investigation. Now you are stuck here, so you can't even get the revenge you wanted. Why are you such an idiot?" Then T'Challa basically says that he did what he wanted to do and he doesn't give a poo poo what the U.N. wants because they are not capable of handling the situation and he wants the feeling of revenge when he gets to kill Bucky. Black Widow says, "And look where you ended up. There are rules. You're insanely naive to think that the world works like that." Then some Wakandan royal guard comes into the room and uncuffs T'challa and tells him that his request for a pardon and immunity went through. And T'challa just smugly goes "Am I?" and walks out. The whole major theme of Civil War is that everyone believes in "the rules" until it is inconvenient for them. The rules are bullshit. Everyone at the end, Tony, Zemo, Steve, and T'challa are all broken people. T'challa is just the only one to accept it and decide not to go down with the ship and move on. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 14:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's actually a deleted scene It's kinda funny, Didn't Winter Soldier or Avengers/Iron Man whatever end with Black Widow telling the government to go gently caress itself and that it wasn't the boss of her? Didn't she also in Winter Soldier spy the poo poo out of things because a super secret organization with no oversight told her to? What has she been through to change that outlook?
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Sep 20, 2016 14:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's actually a deleted scene where T'Challa is in custody and handcuffed to a table and Black Widow basically tells him "You hosed up majorly. You just caused millions of dollars in destruction and actively impeded a U.N. investigation. Now you are stuck here, so you can't even get the revenge you wanted. Why are you such an idiot?" You got the main points right but the details are slightly different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBQlrbLYgak
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Sep 20, 2016 14:50
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Drifter posted:It's kinda funny, Didn't Winter Soldier or Avengers/Iron Man whatever end with Black Widow telling the government to go gently caress itself and that it wasn't the boss of her? Didn't she also in Winter Soldier spy the poo poo out of things because a super secret organization told her to? Not really. She sticks it out with the government. They just wanted to keep the information about how infiltrated SHIELD has been from the public because they thought it would destroy public trust in the organization. Fury and the Government wanted to rebuild SHIELD from the ground up, while Cap and Widow decided to take the "idealist" route of burning it down because they believed that the very structure of the institution would lead to similar problems in the future.
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Sep 20, 2016 14:51
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Drifter posted:It's kinda funny, Didn't Winter Soldier or Avengers/Iron Man whatever end with Black Widow telling the government to go gently caress itself and that it wasn't the boss of her? Didn't she also in Winter Soldier spy the poo poo out of things because a super secret organization with no oversight told her to? i never realized this before now but how the hell is post-WS black widow not either in jail or hiding out in sweden or some embassy
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Sep 20, 2016 14:55
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Karloff posted:as well as a lot of people involved in the making of the film Which?
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Sep 20, 2016 14:57
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Drifter posted:Except, see, unless Marvel's Formula has significantly changed, we KNOW nothing's going to change because nothing has ever changed. I don't understand this whole "nothing changes" meme, or the "Tony Stark just resets", it's utterly and completely inaccurate. Tony Stark has developed drastically from film to film as a result of his experiences, so much so that by the time we get to Civil War the fissures in his personality and the ptsd that has manifested in different ways throughout the series and evolves, is getting the better of him and his inability to deal with trauma has resulted in him becoming unstable even if he's trying to do the right thing. Similarity Captain America has gone from the ultimate servant of the will of authority to a figure who considers the only valid authority to be himself, this due to betrayals in both Avengers, but most notably in Winter Soldier. Hell, some films, like Iron Man 3 and Winter Soldier are all about dealing with the blowback from events from previous films, they were plying those ideas way before Batman v Superman got there and did so in a superior and more thematically compelling fashion. But, maybe Civil War shouldn't have had Rogers and Stark have genuine character deficiencies, be selfish and heroic in different ways, be ideologically opposed in a way that is compelling, and built to a climactic conflict where those character failures are exposed to each other and their failure as people and figures are laid bare leading to a collapse of the idealism that gave them their birth. Maybe they should have just learnt that their mums had the same name and made up and then fought the abomination with the help of Spider-Man. That would have been much better.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Not really. She sticks it out with the government. They ~!** just **!~ wanted to keep the information about how infiltrated SHIELD has been from the public because they thought it would destroy public trust in the organization. Fury and the Government wanted to rebuild SHIELD from the ground up, while Cap and Widow decided to take the "idealist" route of burning it down because they believed that the very structure of the institution would lead to similar problems in the future. Hahaha oh is that all?
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Sep 20, 2016 15:03
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LesterGroans posted:Which? https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/may/31/jeremy-irons-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-deserved-scathing-reviews http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/06/21/a-hater-tours-the-justice-league-set Karloff fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 15:03
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Drifter posted:Hahaha oh is that all? I didn't mean just in a way to minimize it. It was obviously a large plot point. I'm saying that Black Widow's disagreement with authority at the end of Winter Soldier is over SHIELD being allowed to reform. You asked if she had told the government to gently caress off and quit at the end of Cap 2, but she did not. She doesn't really begin to largely question or rebel from actual authority until the middle of Civil War (2 movies later).
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Sep 20, 2016 15:06
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Karloff posted:I don't understand this whole "nothing changes" meme, or the "Tony Stark just resets", it's utterly and completely inaccurate. I was with you until the end since you were describing what happened in Batman v Superman but then you confused something from Civil War where Captain America wrote a buddy letter to Tony Stark and everything was better. They didn't have mothers with the same name.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:07
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She literally tells the government she won't be held accountable because people like her are needed to do the things they can't.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:08
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Jimbot posted:I was with you until the end since you were describing what happened in Batman v Superman but then you confused something from Civil War where Captain America wrote a buddy letter to Tony Stark and everything was better. They didn't have mothers with the same name. Eh, the letter at the end doesn't make everything all better. The letter is Cap telling Tony that he still thinks of him as a friend, but he realizes that their ideological and personal struggles are too big for them to work together from now on and that the Avengers are no more. He doesn't trust Tony enough to tell him where he is or what happened to Bucky, but he wants to extend an olive branch to show that he wants to do the right thing for the world and that he wasn't trying to protect the guy who murdered Tony's parents to hurt Tony.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:10
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Karloff posted:https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/may/31/jeremy-irons-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-deserved-scathing-reviews quote:"'Deservedly so. I mean it took £800 million, so the kicking didn't matter but it was sort of overstuffed...'
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Sep 20, 2016 15:13
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Drifter posted:
"Haulin' rear end gettin' paid!" - Jeremy Irons, 2016
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Sep 20, 2016 15:14
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Karloff posted:But, maybe Civil War shouldn't have had Rogers and Stark have genuine character deficiencies, be selfish and heroic in different ways, be ideologically opposed in a way that is compelling, and built to a climactic conflict where those character failures are exposed to each other and their failure as people and figures are laid bare leading to a collapse of the idealism that gave them their birth. The problem with your BvS criticism (and CW praise) is that it's just basically inaccurate. Like earlier you said that it made no sense for Superman to oppose Batman since they're both violent vigilantes (let's ignore the tautology there) who break civil liberties. Except that Superman doesn't break civil liberties, and he's mostly concerned with preventing disasters than vigilantism. Batman and Superman don't stop fighting because their mothers have the same name, Batman defeats Superman and then has a breakdown over re-enacting his parent's murder, and then Lois steps in between them. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 15:17
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porfiria posted:I just mean that the movies, in their last seconds, convey the concept of "the hero is now a hunted man" in very different ways. By different I mean TDK conveys it and CW doesn't. The end of CW looked like Steve and Bucky were living in sin in Wakanda and Steve just made a brief return trip to get Sam back.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:21
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Karloff posted:Snakes posts are mostly pretty thoughtful and good, but he has engaged in the sisyphean task of criticizing Batman v Superman in this thread where there is a lot of defensiveness about that particular film, for reasons which I am still trying to understand. Karloff posted:But, maybe Civil War shouldn't have had Rogers and Stark have genuine character deficiencies, be selfish and heroic in different ways, be ideologically opposed in a way that is compelling, and built to a climactic conflict where those character failures are exposed to each other and their failure as people and figures are laid bare leading to a collapse of the idealism that gave them their birth.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Eh, the letter at the end doesn't make everything all better. The letter is Cap telling Tony that he still thinks of him as a friend, but he realizes that their ideological and personal struggles are too big for them to work together from now on and that the Avengers are no more. Also a confirmation that the love triangle between Tony, Cap, and Bucky remains firmly unresolved.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:38
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The thing is that people criticize the Martha thing but in Civil War, Tony gets a letter that's dumber and more perfunctory on every level then that Martha scene, and it totally flips him too, and people just 100% buy it. The power of branding, I guess.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The thing is that people criticize the Martha thing but in Civil War, Tony gets a letter that's dumber and more perfunctory on every level then that Martha scene, and it totally flips him too, and people just 100% buy it. The power of branding, I guess. Except that isn't what the letter does at all? The letter is an explicit admission that neither of them are flipping.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:49
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No, the part that's like BvS was at the start of the movie where Steve hears Crossbone saying Bucky's name and he got distracted, leading to an explosion that killed civilians.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Except that isn't what the letter does at all? The letter is an explicit admission that neither of them are flipping. I meant it flips Stark to being friends with Rogers again. He gets a little smile at the thought of Steve breaking out his buds from SuperPrison. The MSJ posted:No, the part that's like BvS was at the start of the movie where Steve hears Crossbone saying Bucky's name and he got distracted, leading to an explosion that killed civilians. Yes, and I remember people mocking it extensively. Oh wait... Edit: To make it explicitly clear, the perception of quality in Marvel allows them to skate by with poo poo that gets a drubbing if anyone else does it. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 15:54
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Edit: To make it explicitly clear, the perception of quality in Marvel allows them to skate by with poo poo that gets a drubbing if anyone else does it. Is this really surprising? If you build up goodwill with people they will have a better perception of the things you do. Though I don't think the Martha and Bucky moments are quite the same. The Martha mention is a huge pivotal moment near the end of the film where everyone is amped up wondering WILL BATMAN KILL SUPERMAN?!?! It reminded me of Ocean's Twelve. I doubt people would have had much of a problem with Tess looking like Julia Roberts if it hadn't been a key element of the heist.
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Sep 20, 2016 16:07
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Can someone give me an example of the kind of change they were looking for in Civil War?
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Sep 20, 2016 16:07
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Can someone give me an example of the kind of change they were looking for in Civil War? Bucky either being redeemed or actually killed off would be an obvious one.
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Sep 20, 2016 16:09
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Halloween Jack posted:It's because BvS has become a focal point of the sort of glib bullshit you just posted. The movie is flawed, but the vast majority of criticism doesn't focus on its actual flaws but on relentlessly spewing memes. If X-Men: Apocalypse and Suicide Squad were buried in a morass of jokes about, I don't know, Xavier going bald or the Joker's dental work, I'd probably feel compelled to go to bat for them despite neither film being very good. One thing with Snyder's Superman movies is he takes these characters and ideas very seriously and presents them in this grandiose way, and if you aren't able to buy into it, the movies feel overly melodramatic. It's not necessarily a flaw in the movies themselves, I guess, but it makes them a lot less watchable for me, despite Snyder having a good eye for action and cinematography. He's also got a very heavy-handed way of delivering information and symbolism visually, so you've got the dream sequence with dictator-god Superman, you've got the pearl necklace catching in the gun and breaking to symbolize Martha's death, Superman gets a Lamentation of Christ shot, etc. I admire Synder's ambitiousness, because he definitely wants to make more artistically-inclined superhero films, but his execution just didn't resonate with me. The studio-mandated sequel teasers, though, those were straight up flaws. Plus Frank Miller's Batman looks dumb and now we're stuck with look and that sucks. 
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