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Karloff posted:I know, but it wasn't a discussion, it was an accusation saying that I have never made such arguments and have only ever relied on "memes", whatever that means. This is incorrect and just looking at my post history exposes it as a lie. Well let's see: Karloff posted:It's easy to dismiss my argument by saying that I'm all like "NOT MY BATMAN", but I can point the same accusation at you. This "IS YOUR BATMAN", the ultimate amalgamation of all the elements you have always desired Batman to be, you've emotionally attached to this version as it's a grotesquely incoherent Frankenstein's monster of Frank Miller, the Arkham games, and the "Batman beats everyone" cultural meme. It's all the indulgent one-dimensional aspects of the character crammed into one package, with all the interesting, thoughtful and compelling aspects sheared away. And that is why you love it. Oh.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well let's see: I stand by this: this is a pretty drat accurate description of how Batman is portrayed in BvS, thanks for reminding me. And once again, that old post is me responding to someone who is convinced that anyone who deosn't like this terrible film has an alternative agenda. Karloff fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 19:02
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I wonder if Zack Snyder is familiar with Injustice: Gods Among Us. In that game, Superman turns evil when Joker kills Lois. but then again the same plot beat happened in Kingdom Come. Do you guys also hate that comic?
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Sep 20, 2016 19:15
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BvS resembles an actual movie, whereas Civil War could easily be mistaken for a Special Two Hour One Time Only Television Event on Fox.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:16
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Detective Dog Dick posted:BvS resembles an actual movie, whereas Civil War could easily be mistaken for a Special Two Hour One Time Only Television Event on Fox. I should start watching cable tv again if it's improved to be better than a billion dollar movie.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:19
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You should in fact watch The People vs OJ Simpson.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:21
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RBA Starblade posted:I've heard more whining about whining than the actual whining at this point. Ha, now you're whining about people whining about whining.  Edit: oh drat, I just realised that I'm whining about you whining about other people whining about whining. For the love of jesus, no one complain about this post otherwise we might trigger a whining singularity 
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Sep 20, 2016 19:21
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RBA Starblade posted:I should start watching cable tv again if it's improved to be better than a billion dollar movie. Television has unironically been killing it in the last several years with a much better batting average than blockbuster film, tbh.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:23
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Ha, now you're whining about people whining about whining. We are undone  quote:Television has unironically been killing it in the last several years with a much better batting average than blockbuster film, tbh. quote:You should in fact watch The People vs OJ Simpson. I'll do that! e: Wait is AMC cable? If so then yeah way better
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Sep 20, 2016 19:23
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MacheteZombie posted:Yeah all those other movie Batmen and their no kill policies. What a disingenuous argument. Like, argue all you want, but Batman literally kills a bunch of people in every movie - starting with the first Keaton flick, like are you being purposely dense? edit:  or were you joking? Nolan's Batman was the one that said to one person "I'm not going to kill you but I also won't save you." Drifter fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 19:24
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Batman didn't kill anyone in Batman and Robin, making it the best Batman movie.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:28
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Do you guys also hate that comic? It's pretty bad yeah
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Sep 20, 2016 19:32
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greatn posted:Batman didn't kill anyone in Batman and Robin, making it the best Batman movie. According to the Batman Supercut of deaths you are correct. Drifter posted:edit: I was haha.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:33
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greatn posted:Batman didn't kill anyone in Batman and Robin, making it the best Batman movie. Uhhhh...Batman loving killed it wearing those tight-assed pants, mister. 
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Sep 20, 2016 19:35
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Drifter posted:Like, argue all you want, but Batman literally kills a bunch of people in every movie - starting with the first Keaton flick, like are you being purposely dense? edit:
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Sep 20, 2016 19:45
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The proof of BVS's success is that people are now terrified of Batman. He's changed too much. He's gotten worse. A line's been crossed, and something was lost. You can't go back again.Things have actually happened - and I don't mean just the steady unspooling of the runtime. People died onscreen, it was unjust, and it was Batman's fault. Batman made a mistake - and Batman isn't supposed to make mistakes! People are literally angry at Batman in the same way they were angry at Superman in Man of Steel. There's this powerful reaction. On the other hand, as was noted earlier, Captain America goes from a hardcore socialist to a corporate stooge, and no-one cares. Because the films have failed to snap people out of this mindset: HIJK posted:Captain America is about breaking the rules to do the right thing, regardless of what those rules might be. This is an empty platitude. What is the 'right thing'? Are we talking about justice? Is the 'right thing' libertarianism or socialism? In the logic of comicbook fans, the things Captain America does are right for no reason except that Captain America did them, and nobody cares enough to object. Nobody cares enough to be inspired by him either. You don't see anyone getting really worked up, saying "gently caress Tony Stark! Steve Rogers has it right, let's go to Seatopia!" Because the films failed to provoke that reaction.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You can't go back again. I wonder how much this will hold up in 2026 actually. Will a grenade launcher be standard for the character going forward? e: To be clear I hope so, that's hilarious quote:Batman made a mistake - and Batman isn't supposed to make mistakes! I don't think anyone thinks Batman accidentally did a strafing run. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 19:49
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His mistake was taking things too far. It's hard to think straight in a fever rage fueled by fear of a 1% chance. My favorite little detail in Batman V Superman (I have a lot of them in that movie) is in the Omega nightmare sequence he's using the gun that murdered his parents. It's shown how far he has fallen - using the very tool that robbed him of his parents.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:52
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Batman doesn't kill except literally every film adaptation including the Nolan one where he's just in self denial about killing Liam Neeson.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:55
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RBA Starblade posted:I wonder how much this will hold up in 2026 actually. Will a grenade launcher be standard for the character going forward? People are barely upset about real-life police forces becoming increasingly militaristic and sporting heavier gear and equipment. It wouldn't be fair for Batman to get left behind.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:57
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't think anyone thinks Batman accidentally did a strafing run. See, this is what I'm talking about. Simplistic terms, without nuance. Lex's henchmen were always disposable, and killing them didn't accomplish anything. Lex can always just hire more. "Criminals are like weeds." Batman's mistake was that he ignored or even tolerated the systemic exploitation that Lex was indulging in, concerning himself solely with cleaning up Lex's secondary malfunctions and byproducts. So even though Batman killed Lex's goons, he was implicitly allied with Lex. He was helping Lex to kill Superman. Batman's character arc in the film is that he actually develops the balls to put Lex in jail. He was afraid to before, because he thought he could avoid the subject. He made a mistake. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 20:00
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Electromax posted:People are barely upset about real-life police forces becoming increasingly militaristic and sporting heavier gear and equipment. It wouldn't be fair for Batman to get left behind. In the ultimate cut, pay attention to the proportions of ethnicity in the prisons and on the police force. A bit of commentary there.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:See, this is what I'm talking about. Simplistic terms, without nuance. quote:People died onscreen, it was unjust, and it was Batman's fault. Batman made a mistake - and Batman isn't supposed to make mistakes! The implication being the "mistake" was "Batman killed dudes"; I doubt most people upset that Batman hosed up were because he didn't destroy capitalism. This isn't that interesting though, I'm more curious what you think can't be walked back with Batman (and I guess Superman, considering Zod's snapped neck). Do you think certain aspects are going to be considered central to the character? Which? What has been permanently lost?
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Sep 20, 2016 20:10
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I've highlighted the part you're glossing over: "People died onscreen, it was unjust, and it was Batman's fault." Comics fans can't handle the concept of justice. In the movie with 'Justice' in the title. That's about the decision to form the Justice League. It's not called Dawn Of The No Killing Rule.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:20
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I highlighted the part you're glossing over: "People died onscreen, it was unjust, and it was Batman's fault." Ok. This isn't that interesting though, I'm more curious what you think can't be walked back with Batman (and I guess Superman, considering Zod's snapped neck). Do you think certain aspects are going to be considered central to the character? Which? What has been permanently lost?
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Sep 20, 2016 20:22
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Karloff posted:You're well welcome to go back through my posts where I explain in detail how every single facet of the storytelling are broken and terrible, the Martha thing gets special attention from everyone and myself because its arguably the single stupidest narrative beat I've seen in a film in a long time, and will never stop being funny ever. Can I agree with this and still be endeared by Batman v Superman? Because that scene embodies everything about the movie that's inept, but also everything that is ambitious. It's conceptually great and executed horrendously. The broad brush of the scene is so good: Batman's entire M.O. is to control and weaponize his fear, but Superman scares him so deeply that his fear now controls him. The result is that he's perpetrating the same trauma that turned him into Batman in the first place, by enabling the murder (figuratively) of his own mother. It's intensely efficient, because the revelation that he's become all he detests *and* the revelation of Superman's essential humanity ("don't let them kill my mother") happens in the same moment. Everything about it, on a conceptual level, is pretty poetic. But how do they express this poetry? "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!!!!!" It was totally hilarious, I agree. And definitely should not have been hilarious. But the concept is still in there.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:24
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I wonder if Zack Snyder is familiar with Injustice: Gods Among Us. In that game, Superman turns evil when Joker kills Lois. but then again the same plot beat happened in Kingdom Come. Do you guys also hate that comic? Yeah, I think it sucks.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:30
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RBA Starblade posted:Ok. This isn't that interesting though, I'm more curious what you think can't be walked back with Batman (and I guess Superman, considering Zod's snapped neck). Do you think certain aspects are going to be considered central to the character? Which? What has been permanently lost? What was lost is the perception that the things Batman does are right for no reason except that Batman did them. Batman has always killed people for unjust reasons, but fans were blind to it because of their ideology. BVS performs an ideological critique of Batman, and that can't be undone. Like the guy in BVS blurting out that 'this island is uninhabited', any attempt to return to the status quo will unavoidably come across as a reaction to what Snyder did. And all Snyder did was tell the truth.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:31
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The best part of that scene is that Batman takes a quick look around the room after he first says "Why did you say that name?" Like, he expects to see someone else behind him, that's who Superman is talking to, it can't be him. His subsequent freak-out is, in fact, great.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:32
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The best part of that scene is that Batman takes a quick look around the room after he first says "Why did you say that name?" Like, he expects to see someone else behind him, that's who Superman is talking to, it can't be him. His subsequent freak-out is, in fact, great. You get to see him how he looks to someone else.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:33
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yeah, I think it sucks. Please go on, since your reaction when I explained why I don't like it makes me think you've got a perspective on why it sucks that I haven't considered yet
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Sep 20, 2016 20:48
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Jenny Angel posted:Please go on, since your reaction when I explained why I don't like it makes me think you've got a perspective on why it sucks that I haven't considered yet I go back and forth on Waid's writing and Ross' art a lot, but reading it makes me tired. It's very inert, a lifeless museum piece.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:51
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My favorite parts of Kingdom Come are Bruce and Diana and Clark talking at the restaurant. And of Clark working in his holodeck as a farmer. I like the art, though. But it's not very dynamic. Most of Ross's comic work seems like it's tailor made for people to point at and say "Look how pretty and for adults comics can look."
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Sep 20, 2016 20:53
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I go back and forth on Waid's writing and Ross' art a lot, but reading it makes me tired. It's very inert, a lifeless museum piece. I initially liked its "epic" scale, but nowadays I think it's overrated. Lois being needlessly killed and Diana Clark getting together was some lame-rear end poo poo.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:58
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It's kind of like "Old Man Yells at Cloud" in comic form.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:58
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Drifter posted:I like the art, though. But it's not very dynamic. Most of Ross's comic work seems like it's tailor made for people to point at and say "Look how pretty and for adults comics can look." I think I'd enjoy the art more if 1) I was familiar enough with the popular designs of all the characters that I could spot their distinguishing features more easily 2) It wasn't set decades after the point where we usually see these characters, with many of them having given up their iconic costumes As is, it's like a half a dozen super-burly middle aged white dudes with dark hair who are, in theory, different characters
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Sep 20, 2016 20:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What was lost is the perception that the things Batman does are right for no reason except that Batman did them. I see, good point. If they end up doing another reboot or whatever ten/twenty years down the line I don't see it being significantly lighter in response to BvS particularly. I'm not sure they'll actually do that though outside of, idk, Lego Batman. I wonder how much gas the MCU and DCU have in them.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:02
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One of the best comic series abotu superheroes is Astro City. It even has Alex Ross as an artist most times.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:03
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edit: goddammit. Sorry for the doublepost.Jenny Angel posted:I think I'd enjoy the art more if This made the story much more interesting, I think. They do wear all of their costumes again, though...except Batman, who has a mecha at this point.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:07
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Drifter posted:This made the story much more interesting, I think. Who knows, but the point I'm making is that doing so strips characters of a lot of their traditional visual signifiers in a way that the writing didn't seem to really acknowledge and make up for
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Sep 20, 2016 21:10
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