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Imagine being a hardcore superhero fan, & you like collect all the issues of justice league, & every character is talking about justice nonstop, & you don't know what justice is, & you talk about no killing rule on the internet.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:51
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Jimbot posted:But as someone pointed out earlier. Batman doesn't fire first. Every time he's visibly killed someone it was in response to deadly force used upon him. Yes, that's my argument. Batman isn't the Punisher because the Punisher will ambush and murder criminals without provocation. Batman shows up and tries to intimidate people into leaving; if they're dumb enough to stay and fight he responds with force. When the Batmobile is shot at with small arms he rams and grapples, and only brings out the Batmobile's machine guns when they start shooting at him with a minigun (presumably because it can't stand up to that level of firepower). Later, the Batpod strafes some of Luthor's goons that are firing at him so that he can disembark safely - if he wanted to, he could strafe the warehouse and kill most of the thugs before dealing with KGBeast, but he doesn't. Because he actually does care about preserving life on some level (he also enjoys viscerally beating the poo poo out of people). If any of those thugs threw down their weapons and surrendered, Snyder's Batman might give them a pounding - but they would live. Compare that to the Punisher, who would just double tap them and keep moving.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Imagine being a hardcore superhero fan, & you like collect all the issues of justice league, & every character is talking about justice nonstop, & you don't know what justice is, & you talk about no killing rule on the internet. Isn't it the more hardcore fans complaining that the causal cartoon-watching Nolan fans don't get it?
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Sep 21, 2016 18:56
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It was nice of all the mooks to aim for his torso during a fight where it's been clearly established that his suit is bulletproof instead of aiming for the exposed portion of his face.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Later, the Batpod strafes some of Luthor's goons that are firing at him so that he can disembark safely - if he wanted to, he could strafe the warehouse and kill most of the thugs before dealing with KGBeast, but he doesn't. Because he actually does care about preserving life on some level. Also Martha was in there so it would have been a bad idea to indiscriminately pour bullets into the building.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:57
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Also Martha was in there so it would have been a bad idea to indiscriminately pour bullets into the building. He had magical thermal/radar vision that could see the position of every person on the floor. And he's Batman. Those bullets wouldn't be indiscriminate. But it's way more fun to outsmart them and smash all their faces personally. Good job, Batman. That's what I want to see from my childish vigilante power fantasies.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:59
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CelticPredator posted:Is Batman not killing a part of his character or not? I mean established beyond movies and cartoons? Has that idea ever been referenced in the comics? It comes and goes with the period. The current idea of not killing is something that actually came to be after being replaced by Jean Paul Valley in the 90's and that is mostly because Valley's tenure as Batman was basically a huge "see? that is why Batman is different and cooler!" to the anti hero trend of the 90's.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:14
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My problem with Batman murdering dudes is that he seems equally trigger-happy after his WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME heart-to-heart with Superman as he was before. If that was supposed to be his big come-to-Jesus moment than it'd make sense to show him making an effort to be less murdery afterwards.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:16
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:He had magical thermal/radar vision that could see the position of every person on the floor. And he's Batman. Those bullets wouldn't be indiscriminate. Supervillains love dressing up victims as henchmen, strapping empty guns into their hands and standing them out the front, plus not even Batman can calculate all the ricochet projections when he's firing off 24,000 rounds per minute from four spinning miniguns. But there's no reason he couldn't have flooded the building with flashbang grenades or even smoke grenades at a bare minimum. He seemed genuinely happy to be breaking regular human skulls for the all right reasons for the first time in ages. "I got my groove back! Eat crate!
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Sep 21, 2016 19:18
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Squinty posted:Isn't it the more hardcore fans complaining that the causal cartoon-watching Nolan fans don't get it? The "hardcore" fans you're talking about aren't saying the Nolan films and BTAS shouldn't exist, or even saying their respective Batman are "wrong".
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Sep 21, 2016 19:20
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Squinty posted:My problem with Batman murdering dudes is that he seems equally trigger-happy after his WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME heart-to-heart with Superman as he was before. If that was supposed to be his big come-to-Jesus moment than it'd make sense to show him making an effort to be less murdery afterwards. Killing people is not his character flaw.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:22
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CelticPredator posted:Is Batman not killing a part of his character or not? I mean established beyond movies and cartoons? Has that idea ever been referenced in the comics? It's referenced in the comics repeatedly. There's no mystery about it at all, comics Batman has explicitly said he is against killing. Most of Batman's biggest character arcs revolve completely around this indisputable fact. But, I guess I'm just a weirdly fetishistic nerd for noticing that the past 30 years of Batman comics has established this.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:26
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Squinty posted:My problem with Batman murdering dudes is that he seems equally trigger-happy after his WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME heart-to-heart with Superman as he was before. If that was supposed to be his big come-to-Jesus moment than it'd make sense to show him making an effort to be less murdery afterwards. Batman's come-to-Jesus moment was not branding Lex. This was after Superman's death.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:26
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Instead, he brands the prison, that is to say, he brands the justice system itself. So instead of claiming ownership of criminals, he is now claiming ownership and responsibility for justice.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:34
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Equeen posted:Batman's come-to-Jesus moment was not branding Lex. This was after Superman's death. I still hope he learned to not kill people just because they fight back when he attacks them after he almost killed Superman. Maybe those mooks all had mothers named Martha kidnapped in the warehouse next door. Or is it just that comic book thing where random guns-for-hire should be killed on sight but world-threatening villains deserve a second chance.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:35
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Oh great, the return of the "MY Batman doesn't do that!" argument. I'm sure it will be just as productive and conclusive as all the other times.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:41
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Squinty posted:Or is it just that comic book thing where random guns-for-hire should be killed on sight but world-threatening villains deserve a second chance. Don't worry, I'm sure subsequent movies will have faceless aliens just like Avengers so we can avoid this moral quandary.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:41
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Squinty posted:Or is it just that comic book thing where random guns-for-hire should be killed on sight but world-threatening villains deserve a second chance. We had a pretty good discussion a few weeks back but a good point was that killing in self defense, or when someone is a clear threat to your/someone's safety is different than killing in cold blood or while someone is incapacitated. Lex is not remotely a threat to Batman when he refuses to brand him. The mercenaries getting ready to execute Martha are a different story (and he doesn't go out of his way to murder them).
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Sep 21, 2016 19:41
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These weren't just random thugs, they were an elite, genocidal group of PMCs. The ones Batman killed weren't executions or because they "got in the way", it was because of imminent threat to others or his own life. Ones with missile launchers aimed at him or fingers on the trigger of a flamethrower pointed at an old woman. And apart from crateguy.gif, they bring about their own deaths after pulling out an armed grenade in a crowded room or pulling the trigger of a leaking flamethrower.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:42
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Squinty posted:I still hope he learned to not kill people just because they fight back when he attacks them after he almost killed Superman. Maybe those mooks all had mothers named Martha kidnapped in the warehouse next door. Or is it just that comic book thing where random guns-for-hire should be killed on sight but world-threatening villains deserve a second chance. Ok, now stop for a second. Think about this whole thing you're saying here. What you're basically asserting is that the death is bad because everyone deserves a second chance. Which is like, no, that's not why it's bad. That's not why Luthor is kept alive - and KGBeast is not killed to deny him a second chance. Lex Luthor is 'kept alive' because there's no immediate reason to kill him. He himself has killed at minimum a few dozen people. he doesn't deserve a second chance, but he is awaiting a fair trial - after which will likely face life imprisonment. When Lex tries to subvert the justice system and weasel his way out of a fair trial, Bruce Wayne steps in and threatens him with harsher imprisonment or death. This is because the movie is about justice (specifically exploring the idea of extralegal justice) and not about 'no killing rule'. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 19:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ok, now stop for a second. Think about this whole thing you're saying here. What you're basically asserting is that the death is bad because everyone deserves a second chance. Which is like, no, that's not why it's bad. That's not why Luthor is kept alive - and KGBeast is not killed to deny him a second chance. Did crate-guy get a fair trial? He's holding a gun but just standing around when he gets his brain splattered. And if Batmans's about "justice" why doesn't he himself deserve a fair trial? He's subverted justice at least as many times as Lex with his extrajudicial killings. greatn posted:These weren't just random thugs, they were an elite, genocidal group of PMCs. He also throws an incapacitated dude who's tied up, hanging upside down, and 100% harmless at the grenade-throwing dude, killing both. Squinty fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 19:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ok, now stop for a second. Think about this whole thing you're saying here. What you're basically asserting is that the death is bad because everyone deserves a second chance. Which is like, no, that's not why it's bad. That's not why Luthor is kept alive - and KGBeast is not killed to deny him a second chance. Was the part about sending him to Arkham if he plead insanity in the original cut? When I watched the ultimate cut last weekend and got to that part I didn't remember it from the original.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:05
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:It's referenced in the comics repeatedly. There's no mystery about it at all, comics Batman has explicitly said he is against killing. Most of Batman's biggest character arcs revolve completely around this indisputable fact. But, I guess I'm just a weirdly fetishistic nerd for noticing that the past 30 years of Batman comics has established this. The past 30 years of Batman movies do not have that dumb rule. So, yes, you are a weird fetishist for demanding Batman have a no kill rule no matter the circumstance.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:06
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Can't we skip Batman kill rule derail #328 and all just agree that BvS was a bad movie for other reasons???
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Sep 21, 2016 20:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Can't we skip Batman kill rule derail #328 and all just agree that BvS was a bad movie for other reasons??? It's a good movie.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:14
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Can't we skip Batman kill rule derail #328 and all just agree that BvS was a bad movie for other reasons??? Well, sure, but many of those other reasons listed are just as far away from reality as bitching abotu how his no kill rule should be inviolate. It's actually a good, interesting movie. Only one or two people in the entire thread have made any sort of appeal to logic to try and argue against that. I don't think those people have posted in the last few pages.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:16
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Can't we skip Batman kill rule derail #328 and all just agree that BvS was a bad movie for other reasons??? Hahahahaha. No, of course not. BvS is good.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:17
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greatn posted:Was the part about sending him to Arkham if he plead insanity in the original cut? When I watched the ultimate cut last weekend and got to that part I didn't remember it from the original. That specific part was added to the UE, but both versions have Wayne threatening to kill Luthor if he tries to escape justice. Squinty posted:Did crate-guy get a fair trial? He's holding a gun but just standing around when he gets his brain splattered. And if Batmans's about "justice" why doesn't he himself deserve a fair trial? He's subverted justice at least as many times as Lex with his extrajudicial killings. See, now you're getting really badly confused again. Wayne does not execute the man with a crate in order to deny him a trial. He incapacitates the man with a crate (probably killing him) because the man was participating in the attempted murder of an innocent woman. Also yes, Bruce Wayne is a bad person. That's the ambiguity of the quasi-fascist ending. That's why it's important to think about, like, why there is a legal system in reality and why it often fails. That's what the film is about. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 20:18
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Squinty posted:Did crate-guy get a fair trial? He's holding a gun but just standing around when he gets his brain splattered. Haha, yeah, the armed mercenary currently on mission to kidnap and aid in the murder of an innocent woman is just standing around.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:23
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computer parts posted:I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you (from the Batmobile). No joke about this will ever be funnier than the one goon who just said "Rubber tires. Honest."
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Sep 21, 2016 20:26
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RBA Starblade posted:"Rubber tires. Honest." I forget who dropped that line, but he deserves a new, appropriate avi for that one.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:29
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That honor belongs to Halloween Jack.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:30
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He wasn't the poster we deserved, but he was the poster we needed right then.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:33
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seravid posted:If Batman is a murderous lunatic, what do we think of Falcon casually immolating three men in the opening Lagos scene? After that crossbones guy came back for a 2nd movie he isn't taking any chances.  Keep the change, ya filthy animal.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:See, now you're getting really badly confused again.  How about this dude. Batman punts him ontop of a live grenade in the next shot. You said Batman kept Lex alive because there's no immediate need to kill him, but this guy doesn't even look conscious. There's no ambiguity at all, it's a straight-up cold-blooded murder.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:41
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It's kind of interesting everyone is focusing on Batman doing bad while actual police force presented in the movie is shown as being terrible and uncaring. That branded prisoner was moved to a place where everyone knew it was a death sentence for him but they just didn't care.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:43
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Squinty posted:There's no ambiguity at all, it's a straight-up cold-blooded murder. Its self-defense. The guy's buddy is about to throw the grenade so he punts the guy to stop it from being thrown. These are violent criminals with assault weapons and grenades. Calling it cold-blooded murder is going a little far don't you think?
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Sep 21, 2016 20:45
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We have no information about that unconscious man's abilities. In a world with flying aliens and terraforming machines, is it so inconceivable that the hanging man has superhuman healing and agility powers and was about to immediately free himself? A person with those abilities would be a likely recruit for a PMC organization.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:46
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Squinty posted:How about this dude. Batman punts him ontop of a live grenade in the next shot. You said Batman kept Lex alive because there's no immediate need to kill him, but this guy doesn't even look conscious. There's no ambiguity at all, it's a straight-up cold-blooded murder. Guess what would have happened to this guy if that thug had thrown a live grenade at Batman, who was standing right next to him? Sorry, he's dead either way, because he made a Very Bad Decision: he decided to help burn an innocent old lady alive, for money.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:46
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Basebf555 posted:Its self-defense. The guy's buddy is about to throw the grenade so he punts the guy to stop it from being thrown. He couldn't have thrown something else? His cable-shooting thingy maybe? It HAD to be the helpless guy? The director could have chosen to have Batman fling a conscious attacker into the grenade-guy, but he went out of his way to show Batman killing someone who's completely harmless. Squinty fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 20:49
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Squinty posted:He couldn't have thrown something else? His cable-shooting thingy maybe? It HAD to be the helpless guy? He had a split second to react and defend himself from a live grenade. The fact that he caused a violent criminal's death doesn't make it cold-blooded murder regardless of what other options he may have had. You don't seem to understand what the term "cold-blooded" means.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:53
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