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bagual posted:Brazilian constitutions are basically toilet paper, we had several and never has one been thoroughly applied. I'll let you know unlike the Judiciary and the Brazilian Constitution I thoroughly apply MY toilet paper. 
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Oct 11, 2016 04:05
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Badger of Basra posted:Who voted against besides the PT? PSOL, PCdoB, REDE, 70% of PDT, 30% of PSB, a handful from other parties. Clarissa Garotinho voted against the law and might get ejected from her party and lose her mandate, which would be cool.
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Oct 11, 2016 04:33
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joepinetree posted:In a naked electoral maneuver, they made a concession that spending on education and healthcare will only be frozen after 2018, the next presidential election. That's loving bullshit. If it started now people would be hosed over and mad enough to affect the elections.
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Oct 11, 2016 05:21
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Miruvor posted:Who votes 'no' to the end of a 50 year war? The most disappointing news I've seen in a good long while People who are not ok with giving parliamentary seats to a terrorist organization that has committed war crimes for decades in the hopes of imposing a totalitarian ideology upon the people of Colombia. I hope that helps.
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Oct 11, 2016 06:52
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Non Serviam posted:People who are not ok with giving parliamentary seats to a terrorist organization that has committed war crimes for decades Yup, because the Northern Ireland peace process has shown us that allowing terrorists to become politicians inevitably leads to bloodshed, suffering and justice never being found. This kind of moral hazard would no doubt lead to more bloodshed down the road as it would encourage others to lead decade long civil wars plunging more than half the country into strife. Possibly every other week.
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Oct 11, 2016 12:39
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Non Serviam posted:People who are not ok with giving parliamentary seats to a terrorist organization that has committed war crimes for decades in the hopes of imposing a totalitarian ideology upon the people of Colombia. Shut up Uribe
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Oct 11, 2016 12:50
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Magrov posted:Clarissa Garotinho voted against the law and might get ejected from her party and lose her mandate, which would be cool. Truly an exemplary democracy where members of parliment are free to follow their conscience without being strong-armed. A greater pack of cowardly, greedy murderers has never been found.
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Oct 11, 2016 13:14
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MrNemo posted:Yup, because the Northern Ireland peace process has shown us that allowing terrorists to become politicians inevitably leads to bloodshed, suffering and justice never being found. This kind of moral hazard would no doubt lead to more bloodshed down the road as it would encourage others to lead decade long civil wars plunging more than half the country into strife. Possibly every other week. If you want to be in parliament, get elected. Don't hold an ak-47 on one hand, hold kidnapping and murder as a bargaining chip, and call it a peace process. It's disgusting that both the FARC and the paramilitary forces would even escape any legal consequences for their war crimes.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:13
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Maybe another fifty years of fighting will solve things.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:29
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Polygynous posted:Maybe another fifty years of fighting will solve things. I don't think a horrible solution, allowing impunity for murdering and torturers, is even remotely close to adequate. This is like having an armed man in your house, and then calling a "settlement" giving him your bedroom.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:34
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Maybe it's more like the government evicting you from your farmland. Nah, that'd just be silly.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:43
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The transitional justice framework didn't extend amnesty for war crimes, that wouldn't hold up to a test in the inter-american court of human rights and previous amnesty reversals like El Salvador and Guatemala are illustrative of what could happen to such an attempted amnesty. The issue was with noncustodial sentences for those who cooperated with the transitional justice body tasked with prosecuting crimes against humanity and war crimes, a surprising lenient sanction that some where doubtful met international obligations regarding prosecuting such crimes. Those who cooperated, and convicted, would have still been allowed to hold office while serving their sentence - again the mumbling from HR groups was about the while serving part. The general amnesty would have applied for political and related crimes, not war crimes etc
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Oct 11, 2016 15:08
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Polygynous posted:Maybe it's more like the government evicting you from your farmland. Like the communists have done everywhere they've taken power. I agree.
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Oct 11, 2016 16:36
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Non Serviam posted:Like the communists have done everywhere they've taken power. I agree. Ah ok, you're one of these "The US should have let McArthur start dropping H-bombs in Korea" types.
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Oct 11, 2016 16:45
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MrNemo posted:Ah ok, you're one of these "The US should have let McArthur start dropping H-bombs in Korea" types. No, I don't think that would have been good either. I'm glad we got that out of the way though.
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Oct 11, 2016 16:59
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Non Serviam posted:People who are not ok with giving parliamentary seats to a terrorist organization that has committed war crimes for decades in the hopes of imposing a totalitarian ideology upon the people of Colombia. but Centro Democrático already has parliamentary seats????
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Oct 12, 2016 00:33
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Non Serviam posted:People who are not ok with giving parliamentary seats to a terrorist organization that has committed war crimes for decades in the hopes of imposing a totalitarian ideology upon the people of Colombia. lmao
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Oct 12, 2016 00:42
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Can anyone explain what's so funny? People might not be ok with giving them room and they actually voted against that. I don't buy that over half the population makes money from FARC existing as it's been said.
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Oct 12, 2016 01:05
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Polidoro posted:Can anyone explain what's so funny? People might not be ok with giving them room and they actually voted against that. I don't buy that over half the population makes money from FARC existing as it's been said. Here's my explanation: Some goons love the idea of the lefty revolutionary. Because of this, giving FARCs a pass is simply natural. The fact that they were rapists, murderers, torturers, kidnappers, and that they employed child soldiers won't get in the way of that. Here's what the deal would have allowed: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37457860 quote:As part of the peace agreement, a special legal framework has been created to try those who committed crimes during the armed conflict, including Farc fighters, government soldiers and members of right-wing paramilitary groups. In other words, no real consequences would have affected the murderers of the FARCs, or of the paramilitary organizations for that matter. If you thought that it was disgusting that Obama decided to "look forwards, not backward" when it came to overlooking the crimes committed under the Bush administration, you should feel the same moral outrage at the idea of Colombian war criminals receiving what amounts to community service for what they did.
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Oct 12, 2016 01:21
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Did the right wing paramilitaries and government forces get similar deals?
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Oct 12, 2016 01:49
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tekz posted:Did the right wing paramilitaries and government forces get similar deals? i imagine the government was already involved in politics when they did whatever they did
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Oct 12, 2016 01:56
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Polidoro posted:i imagine the government was already involved in politics when they did whatever they did Don't gloss over my point; do they have immunity and have they suffered any repercussions from their acts?
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Oct 12, 2016 01:59
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I have no idea, I don't follow Colombian politics. I was just asking why is such a laughable point that Colombians might not want FARC people participating in the government as you can read a couple posts up.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:04
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it's funny because the guy is unilaterally ignoring the crimes committed by the colombian government which far outstrip the rebels in even the worst times of conflict. he is doing this for very obvious reasons
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Oct 12, 2016 02:18
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Non Serviam posted:In other words, no real consequences would have affected the murderers of the FARCs, or of the paramilitary organizations for that matter. The Colombian government could already be going after members of the military or rightist paramilitary organizations that committed the same crimes as the FARC. They don't need the FARC's permission to do the right thing. Broadly speaking, they're not. In the absence of a formalized amnesty for all parties, "justice" would be entirely one-sided, as the demilitarized FARC would be subjected to prosecution and persecution, while for rightists business as usual would largely continue. If that's what you want, just say so. If, on the other hand, you're opposed to the deal because of some commitment to an abstract ideal of justice, lol, you should probably never ever give another thought to the nation of Colombia again. That way only madness lies.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:30
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Colombia is a magical place where bizarre things happen with relative regularity, honestly the referendum result is not the strangest that I've perhaps seen from the country.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:35
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Homework Explainer posted:it's funny because the guy is unilaterally ignoring the crimes committed by the colombian government which far outstrip the rebels in even the worst times of conflict. he is doing this for very obvious reasons Sorry if it wasn't clear. I am 100% OK with any member of the government that participated in war crimes going to prison. Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:The Colombian government could already be going after members of the military or rightist paramilitary organizations that committed the same crimes as the FARC. They don't need the FARC's permission to do the right thing. Broadly speaking, they're not. In the absence of a formalized amnesty for all parties, "justice" would be entirely one-sided, as the demilitarized FARC would be subjected to prosecution and persecution, while for rightists business as usual would largely continue. If that's what you want, just say so. I don't think a terrorist marxist organization deserves a seat at the table. Neither do the right wing narco paramilitary groups. Unconditional surrender is the only acceptable solution. If they refuse to surrender, then they can be persecuted dealt with like any other terrorist would be. EDIT: I'm an idiot. I added the "going to prison" part to the first part of this post. Sorry for the confusion! Redrum and Coke fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 02:40
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:you should probably never ever give another thought to the nation of Colombia again. You assume he ever had.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:43
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Dias posted:You assume he ever had. If I have to choose between being on the side of Human Rights Watch or SA poster Dias, I'm pretty comfortable staying with HRW.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:44
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Non Serviam posted:If I have to choose between being on the side of Human Rights Watch or SA poster Dias, I'm pretty comfortable staying with HRW. God, I'd side with them if you were the option too, considering your post history. Good thing I don't ever have to read you again. Kisses, bye.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:45
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Dias posted:God, I'd side with them if you were the option too, considering your post history. Good thing I don't ever have to read you again. Kisses, bye. Other than making clear that he blocked me, I don't know what he means here. I mean, HRW was pretty clear in considering this so-called "peace process" a sham that was "based on impunity" for war criminals.
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Oct 12, 2016 02:53
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Non Serviam posted:Other than making clear that he blocked me, I don't know what he means here. I mean, HRW was pretty clear in considering this so-called "peace process" a sham that was "based on impunity" for war criminals. It kinda seems like you're parroting the HRW position uncritically and without much knowledge of Colombia's history.
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Oct 12, 2016 03:13
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Non Serviam posted:I don't think a terrorist marxist organization deserves a seat at the table. Neither do the right wing narco paramilitary groups. Unconditional surrender is the only acceptable solution. If they refuse to surrender, then they can be persecuted dealt with like any other terrorist would be. Yeah, gently caress the ANC, Mandela can rot forever.
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Oct 12, 2016 03:16
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Yeah, gently caress the ANC, Mandela can rot forever. A really good comparison too, given how much worse the goverment was than the ANC. 
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Oct 12, 2016 03:24
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Yeah, gently caress the ANC, Mandela can rot forever. The ANC aimed to stop Aparthetid; the FARCS aimed to impose a totalitarian Marxist system on Colombia. Furthermore, anybody that violates human rights, be it from the ANC or the FARC, should be tried and convicted. Your moral relativism when it comes to human rights is really chilling.
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Oct 12, 2016 04:33
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Non Serviam posted:The ANC aimed to stop Aparthetid; the FARCS aimed to impose a totalitarian Marxist system on Colombia. Things you don't know anything about, as revealed in this post: South Africa, Colombia, moral relativism. I've never heard anyone denounce Truth and Reconciliation before. That's new.
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Oct 12, 2016 04:40
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Things you don't know anything about, as revealed in this post: South Africa, Colombia, moral relativism. Listen, I have Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch on my corner, on this issue, when it comes to Human Rights. I'm pretty OK with that.
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Oct 12, 2016 05:03
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Non Serviam posted:Listen, I have Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch on my corner, on this issue, when it comes to Human Rights. I'm pretty OK with that. OK, so add Amnesty International and the concept of Googling to the list. Amnesty International posted:"Today will go down in history as the day Colombia turned its back to what could have been an end to a 50-year long conflict that devastated millions of lives,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Americas Director at Amnesty International. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/10/colombia-no-vote-a-missed-opportunity-for-peace/ AI has a number of reservations, but they are not in "your corner." Dias had it right, I'm done.
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Oct 12, 2016 05:16
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:OK, so add Amnesty International and the concept of Googling to the list. I meant in regards to allowing human rights violators to go unpunished. I don't know AI's stance on the Colombia issue, which is why I only referred to hrw before. Edit. I love that the debate forum is an echo chamber where disagreement is met with reports and/or blocks.
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Oct 12, 2016 05:24
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hrw is one of the many ngos which act as functionaries of the state department, it's no surprise they follow the west's line on practically every foreign conflict
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Oct 12, 2016 05:49
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