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Railing Kill posted:I didn't include guys that get raped, partly because my point was about how females Glad to see a ferengi in the thread 
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Oct 15, 2016 11:42
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Delsaber posted:I occasionally think about changing my username to Drunk Shimoda. Their point about how Pulaski got down with Worf in the space Irish vs clones episode is something I've never realized but it's also 100% unmistakably true.
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Oct 15, 2016 13:57
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I'd count that time the unjoined Trill steals the Dax symbiant, myself.
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Oct 15, 2016 14:02
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After The War posted:I'd count that time the unjoined Trill steals the Dax symbiant, myself. I was thinking the same thing, invading your body to steal part of your identity has definite allegorical value.
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Oct 15, 2016 15:18
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Glad to see a ferengi in the thread lol "Feeee-male hyoo-mons." -Donald Trump "Trump" even sounds like a Ferengi name. Not unlike Brunt.  After The War posted:I'd count that time the unjoined Trill steals the Dax symbiant, myself. Sure. My memory of some of the series isn't detailed enough to start carving out broad definitions of rape fr the sake of the argument. I was sticking to a definition like, "physical or mental assault because some creeper was creepin' on." The Dax thief was more like a hijacker, but I guess it fits in some sense.
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Oct 15, 2016 15:19
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Railing Kill posted:Also of note: most of DS9's female characters aren't raped. Kira is the only one on the list, and that's only because Dukat tries to creep on her and doesn't get anywhere with his Amon Goeth impression. DS9 has every reason to imply some sort of awful poo poo in Kira's past and yet they don't even do that. Go DS9. Best Trek.
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Oct 15, 2016 15:56
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Timby posted:Maybe I need to watch the Klingon episodes of DS9 again, but it just felt like Gowron randomly switched from being a mildly paranoid leader to a jabbering lunatic. And then Sisko basically tells Worf, "Yo, go wreck his poo poo," and I'm like Wasn't that change in Gowron because he had been replaced by a changeling? Or am I due for another DS9 rewatch?
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Oct 15, 2016 16:32
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WarLocke posted:Wasn't that change in Gowron because he had been replaced by a changeling? The s4 cliffhanger was that Gowron had been replaced by a changling, but the next story showed that this was actually misinformation given to the founders by Odo and the actual changling was General Martok. The stuff currently being talked about is long after that, in any case.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:03
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FlamingLiberal posted:If I remember correctly he was also responsible for bringing Nick Meyer onboard for Wrath of Khan. Not Wrath of Khan (the two men didn't know each other at that point), but Nimoy did have the idea of bringing him in to write the Earth-based stuff in The Voyage Home after Bennett had trouble cracking the script and the Meerson / Krikes script was thrown out, and Meyer was his first and only choice to write and direct The Undiscovered Country (the pre-production of which basically destroyed their friendship).
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Oct 15, 2016 19:12
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Timby posted:Meyer was his first and only choice to write and direct The Undiscovered Country (the pre-production of which basically destroyed their friendship). Man, what happened there?
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Oct 15, 2016 19:58
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macnbc posted:Man, what happened there? quote:For background, Meyer and Nimoy hashed out the story at Meyer's beach house; Nimoy opened by asking Meyer, "How would you like to tell a story about the Wall coming down in space?" That sold Meyer, and they walked up and down the beach all day just breaking down the story beat-by-beat. They then went their separate ways, with Meyer intending to write the script with Denny Martin Flinn, his longtime friend who was dying of cancer.
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Oct 15, 2016 20:06
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Timby posted:Not Wrath of Khan (the two men didn't know each other at that point), but Nimoy did have the idea of bringing him in to write the Earth-based stuff in The Voyage Home after Bennett had trouble cracking the script and the Meerson / Krikes script was thrown out, and Meyer was his first and only choice to write and direct The Undiscovered Country (the pre-production of which basically destroyed their friendship).
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Oct 15, 2016 20:11
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It's just occurred to me that these people are either 30 feet tall, or just massively out of scale with the rest of the station. 
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Oct 15, 2016 20:52
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The_Doctor posted:It's just occurred to me that these people are either 30 feet tall, or just massively out of scale with the rest of the station. What do you think Giant Spock's been up to all this time? 
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Oct 15, 2016 23:13
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I just finished watching through the entirety of DS9 for the first time and I loved it, but I have to say that finale was some mediocre Star Wars-rear end poo poo. The resolution of the dominion war was fine but that whole plot line with Dukat and the pah wraiths was pretty dumb. It wasn't the satisfying end to the series I was hoping for and it felt awkward given that Sisko knew nothing about any of it until the last 5 minutes of the show when he suddenly got all "gotta go, prophets need me." I would have liked them to revisit Benny Russell or the admittance of Bajor into the Federation instead.
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Oct 15, 2016 23:53
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Red Ryder posted:I just finished watching through the entirety of DS9 for the first time and I loved it, but I have to say that finale was some mediocre Star Wars-rear end poo poo. The resolution of the dominion war was fine but that whole plot line with Dukat and the pah wraiths was pretty dumb. It wasn't the satisfying end to the series I was hoping for and it felt awkward given that Sisko knew nothing about any of it until the last 5 minutes of the show when he suddenly got all "gotta go, prophets need me." I would have liked them to revisit Benny Russell or the admittance of Bajor into the Federation instead. As I recall, Avery Brooks was very uncomfortable with the idea of Sisko just going "peace out" at his pregnant wife and asked for some substantial rewrites.
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Oct 16, 2016 00:08
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Timby posted:As I recall, Avery Brooks was very uncomfortable with the idea of Sisko just going "peace out" at his pregnant wife and asked for some substantial rewrites. It did play rather unfortunately into the "absent black father" trope, but hey sometimes ST is just dumb
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Oct 16, 2016 00:15
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 Saw this at a Best Buy just now. The Future Is Now.
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Oct 16, 2016 00:39
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Gonz posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1KU_ubixI
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Oct 16, 2016 00:49
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Timby posted:As I recall, Avery Brooks was very uncomfortable with the idea of Sisko just going "peace out" at his pregnant wife and asked for some substantial rewrites. I mean, the subtext is unhappy but I don't really have a problem with Sisko leaving Starfleet and humanity behind to go join the Prophets. It's something neither Kirk nor Picard would ever have done and that's what makes it interesting. I didn't find it unbelievable that Sisko would do it either, he's been struggling for several years with his importance as a religious figure and was never a perfect Starfleet martinet to begin with. He's a vulnerable figure who sometimes makes difficult personal choices that don't leave everyone or himself happy. But he has to live with it. That's why he's a good protagonist. But I do think the pah-wraiths are the weakest link of the plot of the show as a whole. What the hell is their problem? So there's two types of godlike energy beings in the Bajor system locked in ancient conflict, the one type doesn't like the other -- why not? Seriously, none of the dick things they do make sense at all because we have no concept of what could possibly motivate them. We don't even have a clear sense that they have motivations for their actions at all, they are just villainous and made of evil red energy. That's okay if lazy, as long as it's a one-off thing, oh no the bad alien has possessed the chief's wife, will anyone notice before she starts wearing his skin? But it's absolutely foolish if you plan on making them the big endgame villain that Sisko must sacrifice himself to stop. I think an interesting tack to take would have been: why are the pah-wraiths so bad that the Bajorans must never ever allow them to be summoned out of the necronomicon, when the prophets blithely stayed in their wormhole doing gently caress all while Cardassians invaded the planet and unleashed a holocaust upon its inhabitants? In what sense can these guys claim to be "of Bajor" when they didn't lift a finger to defend it? I don't want to get invested in defending the evil space ghosts but it's very un-Trek to me that they never even explore the motivations of their enemies here. Dealing with assholish godlike energy beings in some other way than "push them back into literal hell" is what the show should be about.
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Oct 16, 2016 00:54
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Timby posted:substantial rewrites.
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Oct 16, 2016 00:55
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The Prophets taking Jake instead would've worked for me, tying back into the penance they had planned earlier which was aborted when Kai Winn hosed up their Reckoning. Then Sisko could've stayed with his wife and newborn, but he'd still "know nothing but sorrow" because he lost Jake.
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Oct 16, 2016 01:16
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Yeah those evil wormhole dudes were the worst part of the show and turned the final episodes into some schlock. They easily could have maybe developed them into anything with any sort of backstory or motivations. Nope, "they're evil demons that want to kill the prophets and the universe because that's what demons do" and that's that, that's all we get.
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Oct 16, 2016 01:42
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It would have been pretty easy to just say they weren't as standoffish as the normal wormhole aliens and would directly intercede in Bajoran lives, so the majority population deemed them "wrong" and locked them away. Like, not even in an evil way, just they were the ones who would actually bother answering prayers or something, and they're only malevolent assholes now because they've been imprisoned for 10,000 years. At least that's something more than just [[Keiko intensifies]]
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Oct 16, 2016 02:03
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Weren't they supposed to have been kicked out of the celestial temple by the prophets, and imprisoned in the fire caves? What's Satan's motivation?
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Oct 16, 2016 02:08
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DirtyRobot posted:I just got to these episodes in my own binge and was disappointed by the music choice for the intro. Instead of sounding dark, it should have gotten even more hilariously upbeat as it started showing images and clips that were increasingly grim and horrific. A long time ago, a fan put Faith of the Heart over the Mirror Universe intro. It actually works really well, and syncs up perfectly with the visuals in a lot of places. The show runners may well have originally planned to do exactly this, but chickened out at the last minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qFagHtGrNA
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Oct 16, 2016 02:12
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Powered Descent posted:A long time ago, a fan put Faith of the Heart over the Mirror Universe intro. It actually works really well, and syncs up perfectly with the visuals in a lot of places. The show runners may well have originally planned to do exactly this, but chickened out at the last minute. Man this works great, would have been even more ridiculous with the extra upbeat season 3 music.
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Oct 16, 2016 02:35
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Red Ryder posted:I just finished watching through the entirety of DS9 for the first time and I loved it, but I have to say that finale was some mediocre Star Wars-rear end poo poo. The resolution of the dominion war was fine but that whole plot line with Dukat and the pah wraiths was pretty dumb. It wasn't the satisfying end to the series I was hoping for and it felt awkward given that Sisko knew nothing about any of it until the last 5 minutes of the show when he suddenly got all "gotta go, prophets need me." I would have liked them to revisit Benny Russell or the admittance of Bajor into the Federation instead.
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Oct 16, 2016 03:22
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thexerox123 posted:Weren't they supposed to have been kicked out of the celestial temple by the prophets, and imprisoned in the fire caves? Depending on what tradition you look at, he committed some variant on being insufficiently humble before God and his creation. But that doesn't really wash with the prophets, they don't seem to have moral concepts like humility and I'm not sure they even created Bajor or the Bajorans. Part of the plot hole here is that the prophets are so spacey it's hard to imagine how they could possibly have a malign aspect at all. They don't seem to have any obvious motivations, questions of motive hardly even make sense because they don't experience cause and effect in a normal way. When Sisko meets them, they're all like "what is time? What is this suffering? You exist here  ". It's possible to reimagine this in a kind of Lovecraftian light, where the "evil" prophets would be similarly remote from humanoid experience, but so much so that they just don't care about the death and destruction their natural behaviors will cause to lesser beings. But this isn't how the pah-wraiths are portrayed, they're shown to possess humans and undertake pointlessly cruel, malicious, and violent actions. That's a giant gulf of behavior between these guys and the other guys they're supposed to be sort of like, and the show only ever explores it in a circular manner. Why are they assholes? Because they're in the fire caves and must be kept there. But why are they in the caves? Well, because they're assholes of course. It's the failure of the show to engage with it on any deeper level that I find unsatisfying.
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Oct 16, 2016 03:31
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when was kira raped? i don't remember that episode at all.
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Oct 16, 2016 03:35
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I don't know about raped, but she was turned into a Cardassian once.
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Oct 16, 2016 04:21
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Timby posted:As I recall, Avery Brooks was very uncomfortable with the idea of Sisko just going "peace out" at his pregnant wife and asked for some substantial rewrites. Personally, I'm glad they put in the "I can come back whenever I want because I'll control time" thing though. That way I can choose to believe he came back a month later: not long enough to miss too much, but long enough that people won't be too weirded out by how much he changed in a few hours/lifetimes like when O'Brien went to mind prison. Mulaney Power Move posted:when was kira raped? i don't remember that episode at all. I think they're being a bit liberal with lack of consent to something = rape.
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Oct 16, 2016 04:32
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Ah poo poo I forgot about O'Brien going to mind prison. Goddamn. Poor Colm Meaney.
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Oct 16, 2016 04:34
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i feel like you have to use your imagination a little bit too hard (i.e., what did they do to her space cooch?) to classify that as rape
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Oct 16, 2016 04:38
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i feel like it's less of a stretch to classify data as a rapist (she was clearly intoxicated). i doubt soong would have programmed him to be incapable of rape. i don't think data is rapist, for the record.
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Oct 16, 2016 04:42
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He is programmed in multiple techniques, including rape
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Oct 16, 2016 04:53
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Mulaney Power Move posted:i feel like it's less of a stretch to classify data as a rapist (she was clearly intoxicated). i doubt soong would have programmed him to be incapable of rape. i don't think data is rapist, for the record. I think technically they raped each-other, because neither was capable of giving consent due to being intoxicated. Do two rapes make a right?
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Oct 16, 2016 05:10
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Cat Hatter posted:I think technically they raped each-other, because neither was capable of giving consent due to being intoxicated. Do two rapes make a right? I've been in the military and I've received training on sexual assault, so I can handle this. If both the woman and the man are intoxicated, the man is at fault.
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Oct 16, 2016 05:11
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Mulaney Power Move posted:i doubt soong would have programmed him to be incapable of rape. The bastard! 
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Oct 16, 2016 05:27
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Cat Hatter posted:I think technically they raped each-other, because neither was capable of giving consent due to being intoxicated. Do two rapes make a right? Oh yeah, I forgot he got space drunk too.
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Oct 16, 2016 06:21
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