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I mean, it didn't affect me in any way outside of "That's weird." It's a punchline without a set up. I don't get the love for it.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:31
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Punkin Spunkin posted:Preferably you just burn the things Frank Miller writes, not frame them as propaganda so everything they promote is okay because hey you're totally Verhoeven maaaaaaaan Shitheads appropriating The Matrix's symbolism doesn't diminish The Matrix.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:32
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*Batman flashes back to the night his parents were murdered. A dull hiss of white noise overlays the vision of pearls spilling down his mother's body like droplets of blood as she falls to the street. A close-up of his father's face , the spark in his eyes fading swiftly but still desperately tracking Martha's graceless arc and his breathless lips form the single word..."Mom..."* Drifter fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 15, 2016 |
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Oct 15, 2016 17:33
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Superman was actually trying to say "Beat Up Martin" 
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Oct 15, 2016 17:35
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CelticPredator posted:I mean, it didn't affect me in any way outside of "That's weird." It's a punchline without a set up. I don't get the love for it. Smug Ben Affleck Batman getting his self-righteous justification for his reign of terror thrown back in his face is great. I just wish it was done more elegantly.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:35
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CelticPredator posted:I mean, it didn't affect me in any way outside of "That's weird." It's a punchline without a set up. I don't get the love for it. The movie does a lot of setting up for the punchline. Thomas Wayne's last word, Bruce visiting his mom's tomb, putting Batman in Joe Chill's shoes, Lex repeating Martha Kent's name to Superman literally three times in a row before the big fight.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:37
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Shitheads appropriating The Matrix's symbolism doesn't diminish The Matrix. I guess one could then easily say it was like, the Scarface of its genre and it's not Scarface's fault the character is glorified in such a cliche way by so many people but at what point do you start blaming the film for failing? Jarhead managed to be anti war without inadvertently glorifying it like Apocalypse Now or Full Metal Jacket At the end of the day I come back to a simple principle: gently caress Frank Miller
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Oct 15, 2016 17:41
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Punkin Spunkin posted:Preferably you just burn the things Frank Miller writes, not frame them as propaganda so everything they promote is okay because hey you're totally Verhoeven maaaaaaaan The reason Starship Troopers is adapted the way it is is because the actual novel is a turgidly boring diegesis on nuclear proliferation. Frank Miller's series, on the other hand is a graphically lurid heavily visual representation of white supremacist, revisionist history. In adapting it faithfully, and even escalating its political xenophobia, the film illustrates the 'moving' potential of this kind of crypto-fascist art, how it becomes compelling not simply because of superficial content (here is the foreign Other, they "hate freedom," go kill them), but because of its formal presentation. The funny thing is that there are very clearly many parts of 300 that are portrayed as hammy, wooden, or absurd, but the assumption is that this is unintentional because, per the Verhoeven reference, the expectation is that there should somehow be this even more explicit aesthetic wink to the audience, like the Why We Fight films or Nazi fashion. But that's why 300 is actually more nuanced than Starship Troopers as satire. It's not deprecating upon this ideology through a detached lens with clear "cues" that the heroes are the bad guys, calling attention to the gag. It's played straight, like The Naked Gun.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:44
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Punkin Spunkin posted:At the end of the day I come back to a simple principle: gently caress Frank Miller 100%  and thank you for expanding on your thoughts.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:46
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CelticPredator posted:I mean, it didn't affect me in any way outside of "That's weird." It's a punchline without a set up. I don't get the love for it. No set up? Batman's entire life was building up to that moment. EDIT:A lot of people complained about the intro of his parent's murders being redundant and then complain the Martha thing came out of nowhere. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Oct 15, 2016 |
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Oct 15, 2016 17:46
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Punkin Spunkin posted:It never feels like many people are digesting it in some highly nuanced satirical way Is there anything you've run into where most people digest it in a highly nuanced way?
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Oct 15, 2016 17:50
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I guess at the end of the day my qualm with 300 is a personal hangup but I remember feeling really uncomfortable in a movie theater full of inflamed white nerds clearly enjoying and reveling in it the way Frank Miller meant it to be enjoyed It's such a Bush era movie
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Oct 15, 2016 17:52
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KVeezy3 posted:No set up? Batman's entire life was building up to that moment. If I could recut the movie, I'd leave it identical, but take the score out of Bruce's training montage and make it the clanking of his gym equipment and the faint but still audible sound of Phil Collins's "In The Air Tonight" on loop on Bruce's stereo.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:57
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I guess at the end of the day my qualm with 300 is a personal hangup but I remember feeling really uncomfortable in a movie theater full of inflamed white nerds clearly enjoying and reveling in it the way Frank Miller meant it to be enjoyed That's the fun of the movie, that it embraces the seductiveness of Miller's work, while also illustrating who would employ it on their behalf. It doesn't employ an ironic distance from the material. Starship Troopers is great, but it's very on-the-nose. You get Casper Van Dien to make it clear that these are empty-headed bimbos. Whereas Zack Snyder takes the power of the imagery seriously, and casts Michael Fassbender in his first film role.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:14
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Detective No. 27 posted:If I could recut the movie, I'd leave it identical, but take the score out of Bruce's training montage and make it the clanking of his gym equipment and the faint but still audible sound of Phil Collins's "In The Air Tonight" on loop on Bruce's stereo. I liked that some of music score accompanying Bruce has the sound of the terraforming machine of MoS. You should keep that bit.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:19
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I never noticed that. I'll keep an ear out for it next time I watch them.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:28
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KVeezy3 posted:No set up? Batman's entire life was building up to that moment. Yes everything had a reason for being there. The problem lies with the execution being poo poo and the whole thing being a bad idea to begin with.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:37
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I can't believe no one ever points out that when Superman goes to Lex and Lex tells him what's going on, Lex refers to her as Martha multiple times. It always seemed like it was a recency thing, Lex called her Martha so it came out as Martha.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:45
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^^I can see the recency thing working too, yeah.^^CelticPredator posted:It's just a weird thing to say no matter the thematics. No one calls their mom by their first name unless like, they really need to be specific. Which he didn't have to be at that time. The impression I got from that scene though was that since Superman just heard Batman being all hateful about him and his parents, he probably figured that Batman wouldn't care much about saving his mum, so was just trying to get across the 'human woman in danger' part. It might sound a bit weird and stilted precisely 'cause Superman usually doesn't refer to his mum by name, plus having boot on his throat probably didn't help either.  I don't think you're supposed to think that Superman knew 'Martha' had a special significance for Batman. That part's just luck, as was pointed out earlier. And Batman doesn't suddenly decide to be friends with Superman 'cause their mums have the same name, the name just acts as a reset switch for his psychotic obsession and enables him to look at what's he's about to do in a different light. The plea 'Martha' is now being directed at him instead of at his parents' killer, and that's a pretty big impetus psychologically to start having second thoughts.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:47
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The Martha scene sticks in the craw because it is a powerful moment, but one where people are shaken out of their identification with the batman character. That's to say batman experiences a 'profound' spiritual transformation, but the audience sees this purely 'from the outside' - the character reduced to a ridiculous child in metal pajamas. This is roughly Lois' point of view. But many don't want to identify with Lois. They want to identify with Batman - they are 'supposed to' identify with Batman, and therefore the scene is 'supposed to' cause a profound spiritual transformation in the audience. Like the angriest nerds of the world are 'supposed to' instantly convert to born-again Christianity. That's the expectation it's up against.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:49
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I remember someone in this thread pointing out that it sounded a bit like Superman was just trying and failing to also say "Kent", like at least once there's a choked sound at the end of Martha that might've started with K, but I'm not in position to check.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:51
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Clunky dialogue? In my superhero comicbook movie?? I kid, it is a very awkward line, and I still chuckle, but laughing is a joy and it's good to do. Plus Affleck's reaction is a fantastic batman moment. Besides, I know families that refer to parents by their first names, even as children. It is kinda weird, but not immersion-breakingly so.
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Oct 15, 2016 18:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Martha scene sticks in the craw because it is a powerful moment, but one where people are shaken out of their identification with the batman character. I identify with Lois because sometimes I put an object I need in an out-of-the-way location because I think I don't need it, but then later I need it.
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Oct 15, 2016 19:12
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I guess at the end of the day my qualm with 300 is a personal hangup but I remember feeling really uncomfortable in a movie theater full of inflamed white nerds clearly enjoying and reveling in it the way Frank Miller meant it to be enjoyed No worries, my man. Around here we love discourse and hearing why someone doesn't like a movie or why a certain thing didn't work for them. The worst thing is not having anything to discuss about. It's why fly-by "it sucks because this guy is bad bye" get dog-piled. Ferrinus posted:I remember someone in this thread pointing out that it sounded a bit like Superman was just trying and failing to also say "Kent", like at least once there's a choked sound at the end of Martha that might've started with K, but I'm not in position to check. I does not.
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Oct 15, 2016 19:36
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Soggy Cereal posted:I identify with Lois because sometimes I put an object I need in an out-of-the-way location because I think I don't need it, but then later I need it. Right: you identify more with Batman because you perceive his unholy 'Christ-Killer' murder weapon in rational-utilitarian terms. "This might come in handy later..."
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Oct 15, 2016 20:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right: you identify more with Batman because you perceive his unholy 'Christ-Killer' murder weapon in rational-utilitarian terms. "This might come in handy later..." And then it did.
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Oct 15, 2016 21:42
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I get that there are a lot of movies that fall into this, for example films made to be antiwar that unintentionally glorify it, but man with 300 I struggle to find human beings outside the Internet who don't just digest it and love it as straight fascist racist glorification. It never feels like many people are digesting it in some highly nuanced satirical way or framed as historical propaganda because it's not like the reduced worldview of West v Rest it promotes wasn't/isn't dominant in Western/American historical education to this very day. The sentiments and thoughts on the Greco-Persian War it promotes are sadly not cartoonishly uncommon enough to seem like some subversion, it's not a reach that a lot of its audience was unironically brought up on the ideals it "promotes". I feel like the older I get, the more I've realized I've never seen a war movie that doesn't glorify war.
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Oct 15, 2016 21:45
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Come and See?
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Oct 15, 2016 21:54
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Perhaps a hamster posted:Come and See?
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Oct 15, 2016 21:57
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I've seen someone would still feel all ooh-rah after watching Fullmetal Jacket, but Paths of Glory? Come on'.
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Oct 15, 2016 22:00
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Come and See absolutely glorifies war. That's not the same thing as making war seem fun or exciting.
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Oct 15, 2016 22:06
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Perhaps a hamster posted:Definitely not the impression I got, but admittedly it's been forever since I've seen it. Not to derail too much, but what's your definition of 'glorifies'? Florian becomes a man by being personally inducted into the most righteous possible war.
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Oct 15, 2016 22:14
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Hmm, will keep that in mind if I ever decide to rewatch it.
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Oct 15, 2016 22:19
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Perhaps a hamster posted:Definitely not the impression I got, but admittedly it's been forever since I've seen it. Not to derail too much, but what's your definition of 'glorifies'? I mean, by the end I think most people are rooting for Florya to go off and help defeat the Nazi menace in defense of the Motherland. It doesn't sugarcoat or romanticize the PRACTICE of war, but it also isn't condemnatory of the Great Patriotic War or those who fought in it. The shooting of the German soldiers as the end is treated as justice (as opposed to lighting them on fire for revenge).
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Oct 15, 2016 22:30
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All fair points, I guess at the time I saw it I was more fixated on being horrified by the earlier parts of the film to register much of the ending. Wonder what impression I'd get if I were to watch it now.
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Oct 15, 2016 22:35
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I feel like the older I get, the more I've realized I've never seen a war movie that doesn't glorify war. I can see how someone would feel this way, but I've never agreed. My picks would be Platoon, Das Boot, and especially Stalingrad. Stalingrad is even more nightmarish than Come and See for me.
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Oct 15, 2016 23:15
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I feel like the older I get, the more I've realized I've never seen a war movie that doesn't glorify war. Grave of the Fireflies?
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Oct 15, 2016 23:46
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RBA Starblade posted:And then it did. Judging decisions purely by their outcomes are for children.
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Oct 15, 2016 23:49
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It was precisely the spear's utilitarian value that made hiding it beyond immediate reach the correct choice st the time.
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Oct 16, 2016 00:16
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I don't find the Martha scene as weird as the fact that Superman suddenly resorting to ripping Batman a new one at the beginning of the fight, he could have taken a few more seconds to talk before knocking Batman 30 feet away and throwing him through a building.
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Oct 16, 2016 00:27
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