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Actually the guy said attempted rape, so in that case I guess it was when she had an orb experience or whatever and the one cardassian officer tried to get down to business and she beat him up or something. Gul Dukat was not a rapist, though, he wanted so seduce his ladies. He did nothing truly wrong.
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Oct 16, 2016 06:31
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Dukat's conversation with Weyoun about making your enemies realize they were wrong to oppose you in the first place probably also applies to his personal life.
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Oct 16, 2016 06:54
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All the flaws in the DS9 finale are forgiven because of how fantastic Brooks is in this final scenes. Dukat: " Who's gonna stop me???" Sisko: "IIIIII AAAMMMMMMMMM" Brooks tore that line off with his teeth, chewed it up and spat it out with the force of a hurricane. I loving love that scene.
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Oct 16, 2016 07:09
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thexerox123 posted:Weren't they supposed to have been kicked out of the celestial temple by the prophets, and imprisoned in the fire caves?
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Oct 16, 2016 07:13
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*amends Amazon.com Christmas wish list emails*
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Oct 16, 2016 07:26
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Nessus posted:In Star Trek, Satan was an unusually friendly example of some super-aliens who hung out on Earth for a while but who were eventually run off because humans were dicks and persecuted them. Since they were unwilling to smite us into shape, they just went home. Satan was eager to reconcile and these aliens became at least distantly friendly to hew-monity and/or the Federation after Kirk successfully defended Satan. Yeah, Satan's motivation was he was just a chill dude who wanted to hang and humans were jerks to him.... At Salem... Where they burned aliens as witches. I guess the ship's long since sailed as far as "tasteful representations of Salem" goes, but it still bothers me every time I see a real tragedy, where several of my ancestors were hanged (not burned) for no good reason, turned into a jokey reference in "magic is real!" stories. Not only does stuff like having a cat named "Salem" in Sabrina the Teenage Witch or having one of the American witches in Harry Potter be from Salem cheapen the deaths of real people, but if you're referencing it in a story where witches are real, then it implies that there was a reason for the town to murder those people and it changes the lesson from "beware of mass hysteria" to "be nicer to minorities." One of my ancestors was accused of turning into a pig and hanged because he refused to "confess." It's a great story and my grandfather enjoyed telling it, but I don't think the intended lesson was that we were descended from a poor persecuted werepig (and a dishonest one at that). Obviously, this one is sorta personal for me (although three centuries is too long to hold a grudge, of course), but I get that same sick feeling of historical desecration whenever Star Trek sees fit to announce that Da Vinci was immortal, Jack the Ripper was an evil energy being, Amelia Earhart was abducted by aliens, Native Americans were "taught" by benevolent ancient aliens, and Keats was killed by a creativity vampire. It also pisses me off when they get historical details wrong, go with the cartoon versions of historical figures/periods (loving Clemens), and perpetuate historical myths (the Roman Empire was destroyed by Christianity, fascism is "efficient," etc.). I hope the new series has the good sense to actually research the "historical" quotes and references it uses and the decency to leave real people and real tragedies the gently caress alone. Because, as it is, the show's crimes against history have been almost as offensive as its abuse of science and are even less excusable.
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Oct 16, 2016 08:25
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In a few hundred years maybe the Holocaust will be the joke historical event in question. 9/11 is already kind of there.
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Oct 16, 2016 08:34
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You already see this with the Nazis sometimes when people try to do supernatural/alien/superscience conspiracy plots and stuff like the Mengele experiments or even the concentration camps themselves becomes part of a plot to summon a demon or make cyborgs or something. It's tacky as hell. I don't think Trek has ever done anything quite that bad (the Enterprise WW2 episode was mostly just goofy as hell), but they've skirted the line a few times. I think the biggest offense is still saying that indians were uplifted and taught spiritualism by space aliens, brought to another planet by "presevers" as a sort of living natural history exhibit, and, even in the utopian space future, will still be getting oppressed by the government.
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Oct 16, 2016 08:56
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my ancestors were kicked outta scotland and all our land stolen for supporting the rightful heir of the british throne, James VII the illegitimate pretender to the throne adorns all my currency!!!!
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Oct 16, 2016 09:56
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Yeah, some of my non-witch ancestors were in the same boat (maybe literally). I went to a high school in California where our sports teams was 'The Highlanders" and we had a "Scottie Dog" (no one ever called it a terrier, for some reason) in a kilt as a mascot. At games and school events, the band would dress in tartans and (badly) play the bagpipes. Hardly anyone at the school identified as Scottish or knew anything about Scotland. I'm still not sure how I feel about it.
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Oct 16, 2016 10:23
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Duckbag posted:You already see this with the Nazis sometimes when people try to do supernatural/alien/superscience conspiracy plots and stuff like the Mengele experiments or even the concentration camps themselves becomes part of a plot to summon a demon or make cyborgs or something. It's tacky as hell. For the little it's worth Himmler, especially, was into his occult so that kind of stuff isn't just pulled out of the aether.
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Oct 16, 2016 11:44
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Mulaney Power Move posted:when was kira raped? i don't remember that episode at all. Cat Hatter posted:I think they're being a bit liberal with lack of consent to something = rape. Like I said, I don't remember her actually being raped, but there is a whole episode about Dukat making the attempt. He's arguably trying to do that constantly right up through season six. As someone else pointed out, he's more successful in his Amon Goeth impression than I remembered because he had Kira's mom as a slave, and his creepin' on Kira is an extension of that. The point of the discussion wasn't to creepily enumerate rapes in Trek shows. It was to point out how loving dumb, overused, and callous it is as a plot device in sci fi. So it doesn't matter if she was or not: if an attempt was made, that counts as "rape as a plot." I still maintain that DS9 is the least dumb about this, both by numbers and by how it handles the stuff. TOS and TNG both handle rape in a "c'est la vie" kind of way. DS9 would at least have the decency to treat it with the proper weight in plot and character development, while at the same time not using it as the default "we need a plot for a female character hmmmmm" trope. But onto less lovely topics: Duckbag posted:Yeah, Satan's motivation was he was just a chill dude who wanted to hang and humans were jerks to him.... At Salem... Where they burned aliens as witches. I couldn't agree more. It would be fun and interesting to insert sci fi into history in a way that doesn't completely gently caress it up or dehumanize it. But the norm seems to be to ruin the events and cheapen them, rather than illuminate them using the tools available to sci fi. Even things I otherwise like, like Stargate, cheapen human accomplishments as well as cheapening their crimes. It's a lazy, cowardly way out of conversations about difficult parts of history. "Ancient Aliens" is distills this phenomenon, just divorced of plot and given whole series to itself.   How could humans have built the pyramids?! With tens of thousands of slaves and decades to build each one. Nope! ALIENS. But that negates the suffering of so many while also negating what so much sheer brutality can accomplish... oh, I see what you did there. Yeah, I can sleep at night because I believe that humans are innocent, simple creatures and only aliens/ghosts/lizard men are powerful enough to be responsible for anything. 
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Oct 16, 2016 11:49
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Incidentally, there's not much evidence that the pyramids were built by slaves. That stuff mostly comes from the Bible, which A) is not a historical document, and B) wouldn't have been talking about the pyramids anyway (they were built much earlier). Slave labor may have been involved, but many of the unearthed workers' quarters show evidence that they were paid. A leading theory is that most of the labor was performed by farmers during the off season. Much of what we think of as history is just stories we've been told. That's fine. Stories are great and you can learn a lot from them. The problem arises when the story we've been told is so good we don't want to check it with reality. I've noticed Star Trek writers love to fill their scripts with references to "the classics" and various tidbits of world history, because they think it makes their characters seem wise and worldly. The problem is though that guys like Gene Roddenberry were often raised on a steady diet of stories that were simply too good to question, so much of what they think they know simply ain't so.
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Oct 16, 2016 12:57
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Today I learned Hellboy is a bad story which cheapens the human cruelty of World War II by positing the occult bullshit which high-ranking Nazis verifiably believed in was real.
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Oct 16, 2016 13:09
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Duckbag posted:Incidentally, there's not much evidence that the pyramids were built by slaves. That stuff mostly comes from the Bible, which A) is not a historical document, and B) wouldn't have been talking about the pyramids anyway (they were built much earlier). Slave labor may have been involved, but many of the unearthed workers' quarters show evidence that they were paid. A leading theory is that most of the labor was performed by farmers during the off season. Ok. Point taken. Swap out "slave labor" with "indentured servitude," because when the god-king comes knocking and tells you to build him poo poo, he's not asking, and you're not saying no. There's often a blurry line between slavery and other forms of labor, especially in despotic regimes. Hey, so, Enterprise sucks. I've all but given up on it, even though I'm going to slog through it anyway. "Fusion" got a little rapey (hence the prior discussion) and most of season one has either bad or forgettable. It's like Voyager that way, except more... bland. Chewy, and not in a good way, like you have to work to get through it. It's like someone reheated Voyager in a microwave too many times. Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Today I learned Hellboy is a bad story which cheapens the human cruelty of World War II by positing the occult bullshit which high-ranking Nazis verifiably believed in was real. Personally, I'd set Nazi occult stuff apart because they actually believed in that crap. I was talking about unverifiable, random stuff, and especially stuff that gives people a cheap way out of thinking too hard about bad poo poo. Hellboy does neither. Edit: VVVV What Duckbag said. Railing Kill fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 16, 2016 |
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Oct 16, 2016 13:15
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I wasn't saying that wacky magic Nazis are always bad. I like Hellboy too. I think it's the intent that matters. You can say that the Nazis used dark magic as one of their weapons of war, as long as you get the cause and effect right. Using dark magic because they're already evil Nazis is fine, but if you get things mixed up and tell a story where they're only doing evil Nazi poo poo because they're under the influence of aliens/dark magic/etc. then you've hosed up.
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Oct 16, 2016 14:02
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WickedHate posted:TOS wouldn't be nearly the hit it was without Spock there, either. He was pretty much the star, which bit Shatner bad. Spock was one of those breakout characters the people who created the show never expected. Back in the 60s he hit a zeitgeist with teen girls who normally wouldn't even watch scifi and arguably helped mainstream the show and made it incredibly popular. Of course, the nominal lead wasn't expecting this either and was understandably upset/mystified. Same thing happened with Illya Kuryakin in The Man from UNCLE and Barnabas in Dark Shadows. They were both in the same vein as Spock--mysterious, non traditional leads who were not cool, conventionally handsome, weren't expected to get the girl (and often didn't), and were out of place in their environment and tortured emotionally in some way (less so with Illya who was pretty upbeat generally). Teen girls didn't traditionally watch Spy Thrillers or soap operas that were marketed towards housewives, but that changed because of those characters, just like Star Trek. Illya and Barnabas weren't intended to be the leads, and even more so than Spock they weren't intended to be permanent characters and were only given prominence after a shitload of fan mail.
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Oct 16, 2016 14:18
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Reading about Nimoy's contract disputes makes it clear that, originally, Star Trek had only one star, Shatner, and Nimoy was considered a distant second, paid less than half as much. Midway through the first season though, he started getting inundated with fan letters at an impressive rate, indicating that his character had become very important to the show. At that point, accounts vary but the basic progression was that Nimoy was offered a salary bump, his agent thought he could get more, Nimoy agreed to play hardball, and agent made some absurd request that would bring him close to or even exceed what Shatner was making (there's disagreement over the details), Desilu balked and threatened to fire him and sue him for breach of contract, Nimoy called their bluff and they went on like that for months until Paramount got wind that they were talking about recasting the most popular character and intervened. Supposedly this was a big win for Nimoy, but really it seems like he basically wound up getting the same (mediocre) pay increase he was originally offered, with a couple other fig leaves thrown in as afterthoughts. Desilu sound like petty assholes in basically every version of the story. Even when they're trying to make Nimoy out as the unreasonable one, it's pretty clear they shafted him as a warning to all their other actors not to get too uppity. The gist of this story comes from Star Trek Fact Check, fyi.
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Oct 16, 2016 15:14
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Duckbag posted:I think the biggest offense is still saying that indians were uplifted and taught spiritualism by space aliens, brought to another planet by "presevers" as a sort of living natural history exhibit, and, even in the utopian space future, will still be getting oppressed by the government. TOS did make practically the same claims about the ancient Greeks, so at least it's equal opportunity...
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Oct 16, 2016 15:36
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Duckbag posted:Reading about Nimoy's contract disputes makes it clear that, originally, Star Trek had only one star, Shatner, and Nimoy was considered a distant second, paid less than half as much. Midway through the first season though, he started getting inundated with fan letters at an impressive rate, indicating that his character had become very important to the show. At that point, accounts vary but the basic progression was that Nimoy was offered a salary bump, his agent thought he could get more, Nimoy agreed to play hardball, and agent made some absurd request that would bring him close to or even exceed what Shatner was making (there's disagreement over the details), Desilu balked and threatened to fire him and sue him for breach of contract, Nimoy called their bluff and they went on like that for months until Paramount got wind that they were talking about recasting the most popular character and intervened. Supposedly this was a big win for Nimoy, but really it seems like he basically wound up getting the same (mediocre) pay increase he was originally offered, with a couple other fig leaves thrown in as afterthoughts. Desilu sound like petty assholes in basically every version of the story. Even when they're trying to make Nimoy out as the unreasonable one, it's pretty clear they shafted him as a warning to all their other actors not to get too uppity. Desilu was always a mess but the fact of the matter was that they really couldn't afford to give Nimoy the massive salary bump that he wanted. Bob Justman was pretty much always robbing Peter to pay Paul and keep the studio lights on and episodes being finished on time. (Also, Paramount wouldn't have gotten involved in the TV contract negotiations; that would have been NBC.) Anyway, the Shatner / Nimoy situation all got resolved finally, years later, when Nimoy settled his lawsuit against Paramount and Roddenberry in 1978 and simply told his agent, "Don't ask for anything crazy in the negotiations, just get me the same contract Shatner has." The idea being that Nimoy knew of the favored nations clause Shatner got for signing onto TMP, and if he got the same terms, then neither one could get screwed over at the other's expense. Duckbag posted:The gist of this story comes from Star Trek Fact Check, fyi. That site cites at least two sources which are known to be full of fabricated bullshit (Alexander's biography of Roddenberry and Cushman's These Are the Voyages), for what it's worth. Timby fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 16, 2016 |
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Oct 16, 2016 16:05
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I'd personally tend toward giving DesiLu the benefit of the doubt, since they weren't exactly a huge house, they had Lucille Ball running things (which I can imagine went down wonderfully at the time with the rest of Hollywood), and were kind of the reason Trek had a chance to air at all. I'd imagine the financing required to boost Nimoy's salary would have really hosed over the rest of the Trek budget, or cause DesiLu to can other projects.
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Oct 16, 2016 17:03
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Railing Kill posted:But onto less lovely topics: For the first several seasons of classic Doctor Who in the '60s, they more or less alternated future/offplanet adventures with pure historicals. That kind of went off the rails after a while and fell prey to the meddling aliens or time travelers trope, but when I went to watch all of the classic show I was pleasantly surprised by how good the historicals were. I don't mean to say they were completely accurate, but they were good dramas without needing to add robots or whatever.
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Oct 16, 2016 19:01
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As a humanoid who evolved through the brutal process of natural selection I was deeply offended by the TNG episode that attempts to mock and make meaningless the struggles of all my genetic ancestors by saying some ancient aliens seeded the galaxy with life that would evolve to be humanoid. I'm literally shaking right now at every death, every bit of suffering in the entire history of life on earth has been made a mockery of "ancient aliens did it".
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Oct 16, 2016 19:14
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Baronjutter posted:As a humanoid who evolved through the brutal process of natural selection I was deeply offended by the TNG episode that attempts to mock and make meaningless the struggles of all my genetic ancestors by saying some ancient aliens seeded the galaxy with life that would evolve to be humanoid. I'm literally shaking right now at every death, every bit of suffering in the entire history of life on earth has been made a mockery of "ancient aliens did it". Alright, edgelord. People can have opinions and think about things. Some of us might even get bored with dumb poo poo. Try to keep up.
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Oct 16, 2016 19:23
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Railing Kill posted:People can have opinions and think about things.  Oh wait, I thought I was in GiP.
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Oct 16, 2016 19:26
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This thread could really use some schadenfreude Axanar news right now. I don't have any though. 
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Oct 16, 2016 20:41
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Just got caught up on the thread and jesus christ... that new series ship is horrible...
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Oct 16, 2016 20:46
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Today I learned Hellboy is a bad story which cheapens the human cruelty of World War II by positing the occult bullshit which high-ranking Nazis verifiably believed in was real. My memories of Hellboy are being raped and I really don't appreciate that.
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Oct 16, 2016 20:56
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Duckbag posted:Yeah, Satan's motivation was he was just a chill dude who wanted to hang and humans were jerks to him.... At Salem... Where they burned aliens as witches. I feel the same way, as white people we really have to struggle to explain how our ancestors were oppressed. For instance, my family was kicked out of Scotland and then kicked out of Ulster and then lost the Civil War and then got hammered by the Depression.
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Oct 16, 2016 23:43
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what up kicked outta scotland crew
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Oct 16, 2016 23:45
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Baloogan posted:what up kicked outta scotland crew The struggle is so incredibly real.
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Oct 16, 2016 23:46
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I sometimes drink scotch.
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Oct 16, 2016 23:50
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And who invited all of you sons of Klingons to Ireland in the first place But we can all agree that Cardassians are the real enemy. One thing I've noticed on my DS9 trip is that I'm partway through season 2 and I don't think there's been a female Cardassian character. Did they run out of the blue rouge for their headspoon or what?
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Oct 17, 2016 00:00
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Baloogan posted:I sometimes drink scotch. I use Scotch tape.
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Oct 17, 2016 00:06
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I always appreciated in those Marvel movies how history was happening at the same time as the superhero stuff. Like the evil group that branched off from the Nazis may have happened, but the Nazis were still being fought by actual people. Aliens being responsible for history is lazy
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Oct 17, 2016 00:09
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The captain america filming fundraising propaganda bit was legit great.
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Oct 17, 2016 00:12
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I just watched this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri5S4Hcq0nY It's nice to have a goofy fun time episode every now and then. The episode where Barclay took over the Enterprise was pretty cool too, once again he followed the goon dream and uploaded his mind to a computer.
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Oct 17, 2016 00:28
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Nessus posted:One thing I've noticed on my DS9 trip is that I'm partway through season 2 and I don't think there's been a female Cardassian character. Did they run out of the blue rouge for their headspoon or what? There's one later. Well, about 10,000 if you count each of the character's actresses separately.
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Oct 17, 2016 00:29
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Have we ever seen Worf's ears?
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Oct 17, 2016 00:30
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Thinking about Worf's "find them and kill them" line, why would he think a human game involves killing? That just seems ignorant.
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Oct 17, 2016 00:36
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