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Phi230 posted:It may not be common knowledge that Vader redeemed himself. Kylo may have his worldview shattered by this knowledge I don't mean even that far ahead in his lifetime, I think beyond space youtubes of Vader choking dudes that I doubt that Kylo knows anything about him at all.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:21
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Yea the place Vader has in the known history of the Empire is still an unanswered question. We don't really see anyone expressing an opinion on him other than Kylo and he's not exactly impartial. Vader could either be a martyr or an infamous traitor, hard to say based only on TFA.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:21
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Phi230 posted:Ok I have a question He intended for Snoke to be her teacher.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:22
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Bongo Bill posted:He intended for Snoke to be her teacher. Kinda naive huh. Snoke would drop him like a sack of potates.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:30
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't mean even that far ahead in his lifetime, I think beyond space youtubes of Vader choking dudes that I doubt that Kylo knows anything about him at all. He attached to the platonic idea of vader cuz he had bad parents
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Oct 18, 2016 18:31
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Why would Any sith take on a student if you know they gonna murc u eventually
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Oct 18, 2016 18:33
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Snoke does not appear to be a Sith. The Knights of Ren, whatever they are, definitely aren't Sith.Phi230 posted:Kinda naive huh. Snoke would drop him like a sack of potates. He is loyal and appreciates the training he has already gotten.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:36
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Kly posted:oh. is any opinion phi doesnt agree with ironic? wasnt he also saying people were ironically defending and liking the prequels? yeah basically. i think he genuinely sees anyone who says they like the prequels as people who are only posting to troll him, and when you read posts in an antagonistic way like he does yours probably seemed like a low-info style reduction of that sequence, so he thought you were mocking him and TFA anywho sorry to be posting about posting Bongo Bill posted:They're more authentic successors to the Rebellion than the Resistance, who are cosplayers fighting a proxy war for The Man in an attempt to relive their glory days. What will become of them now that The Man is decapitated and the culprits of this genocide are on the run? Dunno yet. This is no poo poo my favorite part of TFA. When we follow the path of "Rebels" throughout the series we get CSA/Resistance -> Defeated by the Republic -> Which becomes the Empire -> Which is defeated by the Rebel Alliance -> Which becomes the Alliance -> Which is defeated(?) by the First Order By all rights the First Order are the Rebels of the Sequel Series so far, which stands in contrast to the Resistance, which is some sort of non-approved militia group trying to restore the monarchy. Someone earlier talked about how the prequels (in their opinion) lack a "rooting interest" and I think TFA wants us to all think Han and Leia are the "rooting interest" simply because we know them as the good guys from the old movies. But are they? We certainly want Finn to succeed because he seems like a good dude, but even as we see Rey suceed throughout the movie we see glimpses of darkness. Is rooting for her going to bring us another Anakin? Another Vader?
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Oct 18, 2016 18:37
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rear end Catchcum posted:Why would Any sith take on a student if you know they gonna murc u eventually There's also the fact that the Sith are a religious group, and there does seem to be a certain devotion to their ideals that goes above and beyond individual ambition. I think Clone Wars may have done things with this, and the Legends EU had a lot to say, so you can take or leave those as you like; but in the movies themselves the main evidence of this is Maul talking about taking their revenge on the Jedi in a way that sounds like much more than a personal goal. If you're the only Sith and you die, that's it, game over, the Jedi win.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:41
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rear end Catchcum posted:Why would Any sith take on a student if you know they gonna murc u eventually Most of the sith students in the films don't kill their master.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:56
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Ah that's interesting. Thanks.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:56
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Lord Hydronium posted:Kylo Ren's entire character is a mirror of PT Anakin.
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Oct 18, 2016 19:30
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temple posted:Mirror? Who is Padme? Who is his mother? Who is Obi-Wan? Who is his Palpatine? Raxivace fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 19:36
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Lord Hydronium posted:Kylo Ren's entire character is a mirror of PT Anakin. Off the top of my head (it's been a while since I've seen the movie), we also have Maz's mention of the Sith, Ren's reference to clone troopers, the visual reference to Coruscant of Hosnian Prime, and Ewan freakin' McGregor playing Obi-Wan in voice over. There's a lot more OT references because of the time frame and, well, it's JJ Abrams, but the idea that the PT is being ignored is wishful thinking. It might not be ignored, but it for sure felt like Disney/JJ/whoever made an effort to distance itself from the PT with how TFA was marketed at least. They put a strong emphasis on the return to using practical sets, creatures, etc. (yes I know the PT also has practical sets and creatures, but JJ and KK still made a big deal about it), the whole "We're home" trailer, and they even dropped "Episode" from the title.
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Oct 18, 2016 19:42
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What I think TFA does take from the prequels is, Kylo Ren is based on the same understanding that "evil" isn't cool or dignified or some kind of misplaced nobility. You don't "fall" because of some unnamed corruption (lookin' at you, Blizzard writers), people who do hosed up evil poo poo do so because they have emotional problems. Anakin had abandonment issues and a follower personality, Ren seems to be obsessed with a certain purity in the Dark Side- he wants to overcome his own weakness, I think. It's still a little vague. Which does bring me to what I do think a problem with TFA is that also reflects the era in which it's made- they leave a lot unexplained in the understanding that further installments will pay that off. Snoke is indeed a bit like Thanos, a guy who's introduced as just a shadowy figure who seems to be in charge of things, and in Eps. VIII or IX we'll see that play out. Now you can say the original did that with the Emperor, but in the very first movie there's no teasing- it's just, this is an Evil Empire, there is an emperor naturally, but the bad guys are Tarkin and Vader. We hear "evil empire" and we can infer all the bad stuff that follows. Here, though, we have a film which is, for continuity purposes, a sequel which ended with the Emperor dead and the Empire seemingly overthrown. What Went Wrong? Who is this Snoke guy and how come he's got an entire army behind him? Was he someone powerful from before or did he rise out of nowhere? Why did Han and Leia's kid turn against them anyhow? Star Wars was designed to be self contained because as far as Lucas knew this was his one shot, and while The Phantom Menace foreshadows a lot, all the unexplained bits stay in the background while the foreground story is again fairly simple and self-contained (the bad guys invade a planet, the good guys fight them off.) Poetry, rhyming, etc. TFA plays a bit more like the middle chapters, there's much more a feeling of transition.
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Oct 18, 2016 19:47
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teagone posted:It might not be ignored, but it for sure felt like Disney/JJ/whoever made an effort to distance itself from the PT with how TFA was marketed at least. They put a strong emphasis on the return to using practical sets, creatures, etc. (yes I know the PT also has practical sets and creatures, but JJ and KK still made a big deal about it), the whole "We're home" trailer, and they even dropped "Episode" from the title. A lot of the behind-the-scenes teaser stuff targeted at hardcore fans did try to address the standard prequel complaints, yes. "Real sets. Practical effects." "A real desert." And yeah, that marketing angle was mostly bullshit, both because the prequels used all those things extensively and because TFA inevitably used a bunch of CGI shots and pure greenscreen sets.
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Oct 18, 2016 19:50
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The marketing team on TFA definitely went into overdrive because they obviously wanted to prevent a "here we go again" atmosphere that could have easily developed around the movie. They knew exactly what they were doing when they did those little featurettes with the puppets and the location shoots, they were targeting a very specific group of vocal nerds who could potentially have thrown a wet blanket on the whole thing ala the Ghostbusters remake.
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Oct 18, 2016 19:55
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And the funny thing about that weird marketing push is that, as discussed the PT still used tons of practical effects, but also that TFA still ended up with shitloads of CGI like any other modern blockbuster movie. It was a comforting lie meant to reassure the small but vocal minority of shitlords who care about "authenticity" and whatnot. And the movie looks drat good, in terms of effects. Possibly because a previous filmmaker spent a lot of time and money pushing the envelope on integrating green screens, actors and props and spurring later artists to innovate and improve upon that foundation. I wonder who that was? Maybe someone we're all familiar with? 
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Oct 18, 2016 20:03
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Yeah Lucas was cool until he became a fuckin sellout
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Oct 18, 2016 20:11
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Phi230 posted:You seam to misunderstand what I was saying. How do you feel about flashbacks and movies like Sunset Boulevard or American Beauty, where you start at the end point?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:11
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homullus posted:How do you feel about flashbacks and movies like Sunset Boulevard or American Beauty, where you start at the end point? Those arent equivalent and you know it
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Oct 18, 2016 20:14
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Phi230 posted:Yeah Lucas was cool until he became a fuckin sellout He was always a sellout really, but still cool. A cool sellout.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:14
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Phi230 posted:Yeah Lucas was cool until he became a fuckin sellout Who did he sell out to?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:15
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Serf posted:Who did he sell out to? Disney. TFA is the literal result of Lucas selling out.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:17
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Picard Day posted:Disney. TFA is the literal result of Lucas selling out. But Tezzor loves TFA  Why would that make him uncool in Tezzor's eyes?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:18
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Bongo Bill posted:
I found the Star Destoryer (or whatever its called) to be kinda distasteful. Not only in redoing an old idea, but in its need to be even more powerful. Like, if we take this universe seriously, we just saw five planets at the heart of its civilization wiped out. Billions of dead is a weird way to launch an all ages sci fi adventure. And I just know that the movies will blow past that implication, because they have to, so it makes even more curious that they included it in TFA.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:20
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Phi230 posted:Those arent equivalent and you know it They aren't equivalent to each other and aren't equivalent to the prequels, but they are related. All of them showed you what happened later with some knowledge of the "prequel" material, though -- Lucas had some elements of Episode I through III decided all along. I am interested in your idea that prequels are bad per se and want to hear what you think about anachronism in film in general. What did you think of Memento?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:21
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Starkiller. How soon we forget Alderaan!
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Oct 18, 2016 20:22
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Shageletic posted:I found the Star Destoryer (or whatever its called) Death Star
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Oct 18, 2016 20:24
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temple posted:Mirror? Who is Padme? Who is his mother? Who is Obi-Wan? Who is his Palpatine? In addition to what Raxivace said, there's also some elements of Obi-Wan in Han, recreating the good dad/bad dad dynamic that was central to Anakin's arc. Like Anakin, Ren is torn between the two sides in a way that manifests itself with a lot of angst and uncertainty about his place. The major difference is that Anakin had good reason to be the way he was - his family dynamic was hosed up, being torn from his mother at a young age (and then having her die in his arms), not having a real father and having his surrogate father forced to be emotionally distant as part of his job, and falling in love with his surrogate mother. Ren, on the other hand, seems to be going through a lot of the same angst without a lot of the external factors - yeah, from what he get of his backstory his parents seem to have been somewhat distant, but nowhere near the extent to justify what he does. Basically, Ren is roleplaying as Anakin, not just in costume but in personality. His turn to the dark side is much more of an intentional adolescent rebellion - he's trying to be badass Vader, but is ending up as whiny Anakin (because they're one and the same). teagone posted:It might not be ignored, but it for sure felt like Disney/JJ/whoever made an effort to distance itself from the PT with how TFA was marketed at least. They put a strong emphasis on the return to using practical sets, creatures, etc. (yes I know the PT also has practical sets and creatures, but JJ and KK still made a big deal about it), the whole "We're home" trailer, and they even dropped "Episode" from the title.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:24
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homullus posted:They aren't equivalent to each other and aren't equivalent to the prequels, but they are related. All of them showed you what happened later with some knowledge of the "prequel" material, though -- Lucas had some elements of Episode I through III decided all along. I am interested in your idea that prequels are bad per se and want to hear what you think about anachronism in film in general. What did you think of Memento? The only thing that matters to him is whether or not Lucas had the prequels planned out from the beginning, and if not they can't possibly add to or inform the originals. Why that's important I can't say. We're talking about the same guy, George Lucas, who wrote the story for the OT. So why wouldn't he be able to think about the OT and then later on come up with a prequel story that casts those events in a different light? What about that idea is so offensive? Only Tezzor can say.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:25
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Serf posted:Who did he sell out to? Large hollywood types. He became what he fought really hard against Especially since he fuckin hated the idea of changing films. Then he goes and changes the OT negatives
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Oct 18, 2016 20:26
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Serf posted:But Tezzor loves TFA So you hate TFA? You only like the prequels?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:27
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homullus posted:They aren't equivalent to each other and aren't equivalent to the prequels, but they are related. All of them showed you what happened later with some knowledge of the "prequel" material, though -- Lucas had some elements of Episode I through III decided all along. I am interested in your idea that prequels are bad per se and want to hear what you think about anachronism in film in general. What did you think of Memento? Im talking about later additions to existing works of art you dolt. If Nolan made a prequel to Memento where its revealed that he doesnt ever actually have amnesia then I would have a problem
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Oct 18, 2016 20:28
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Lucas considered(until he sold it) Star Wars his property, and therefore it was his right to change it as he saw fit. The kind of alterations to film that he is against is studio interference where the work is taken out of the hands of the person who created it. You can disagree with Lucas all you want, and I do personally, but what he did isn't hypocritical.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:30
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Phi230 posted:Large hollywood types. He became what he fought really hard against So... just some nebulous idea of "large hollywood types"? That's the best you can do? Also, people aren't allowed to change and grow as time goes on? Opinions can't shift and evolve? Your view of how humans supposedly work is fascinating. Phi230 posted:So you hate TFA? You only like the prequels? I love all of Star Wars, Tezzor  You would know this if you read the thread.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:30
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Phi230 posted:Large hollywood types. Name three!
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Oct 18, 2016 20:30
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When I say retroactive change I dont mean addition or inform btw. I mean changing the absolute meaning into something completely different. LIKE when Han shoots first, thus completely changing the character.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:31
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Phi230 posted:Im talking about later additions to existing works of art you dolt. So just to be clear, if something happens in the next few Star Wars sequels that changes the way we see events of the OT, you'll be pissed off about that, correct?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:31
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Maxwell Lord posted:Name three! Harvey Weinstein, John Goodman, and Rebel Wilson?
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Oct 18, 2016 20:34
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