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One of the females leads is constantly disrepected by her subordinates, cries all the time and never accomplishes anything. The other cries all the time and never accomplishes anything. Thinderbolt is excellent but could be better.
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Oct 23, 2016 03:34
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| # ? May 24, 2024 01:58 |
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i guess what it boils down to is that both of the female leads' plots are very heavily concerned with their own personal emotions, and how them being emotional humans affects their decisions, while the male leads' plots are about losing themselves in senseless violence. so, from a meta-thematic perspective, fairly traditionalist gender roles. as darth walrus said earlier, it really wouldn't be a problem if there was a female lead who wasn't following that theme, because the stories themselves are well written and the female leads are fairly well realized characters. but that's not the case, so it's a little unfortunate to think about.
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Oct 23, 2016 03:37
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Improbable Lobster posted:One of the females leads is constantly disrepected by her subordinates, cries all the time and never accomplishes anything. The other cries all the time and never accomplishes anything. the scientist certainly accomplished something. it just wasn't what she wanted to accomplish. i'm pretty sure the commander girl had a scene where someone was saying "congrats, only 3 casualties that mission!" or whatever and she went to her room to break down because any casualties is too much for her, so assumedly she's not totally incompetent either.
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Oct 23, 2016 03:41
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ninjewtsu posted:sorta? they certainly use their agency way more. I disagree about the dudes having agency, or being in control of their actions. They are both consumed by war, like you say, and it's not like either of them really have a choice in the matter. Darryl has three limbs taken from him, and if he hadn't "chosen" to have the forth one amputated they would've done it without his permission. They are very clear about what Darryl has lost, and none of it was actually by choice. And Io just becomes a crazy killer. I think the only real difference between the male and female leads in Thunderbolt is that the men lean into it and accept becoming weapons, but the women don't.
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Oct 23, 2016 03:45
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Guy Goodbody posted:I disagree about the dudes having agency, or being in control of their actions. They are both consumed by war, like you say, and it's not like either of them really have a choice in the matter. Darryl has three limbs taken from him, and if he hadn't "chosen" to have the forth one amputated they would've done it without his permission. They are very clear about what Darryl has lost, and none of it was actually by choice. And Io just becomes a crazy killer. I think the only real difference between the male and female leads in Thunderbolt is that the men lean into it and accept becoming weapons, but the women don't. i pretty much agree with this, but my point was more that the male leads don't have stories about how they're being consumed by their emotions the way the women are. were Io or Darryl to refuse to take the actions they did, they probably would be in much worse positions than the commander girl would be. but neither of their storylines involve having any difficulty making choices, while having problems with making decisions is basically both of the female leads' plots in a nutshell, so it comes off as the women having less agency, even though logically they have more/equal agency.
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Oct 23, 2016 03:49
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basically the question of "do the women have more agency than the men?" is one with some nuance to it, though the end result is still that thunderbolt isn't exactly a progressive work.
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Oct 23, 2016 03:53
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ninjewtsu posted:i pretty much agree with this, but my point was more that the male leads don't have stories about how they're being consumed by their emotions the way the women are. were Io or Darryl to refuse to take the actions they did, they probably would be in much worse positions than the commander girl would be. but neither of their storylines involve having any difficulty making choices, while having problems with making decisions is basically both of the female leads' plots in a nutshell, so it comes off as the women having less agency, even though logically they have more/equal agency. I think the difference is that the women are in positions of responsibility, so their actions have consequences for others. The commander makes decisions that get people killed, the doctor's research leads to turning people into machine parts. So they have to struggle with what happens to other people, but the guys just have purely internal issues. The difference is because the female characters have power over the male characters. But overall, none of them actually have any choice in what happens. I think you really have to stretch to turn that into Darth Walrus posted:One caveat - Thunderbolt has issues with its female characters
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Oct 23, 2016 03:56
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The Plot to Assassinate Gihren Zabi was a much better manga than Thunderbolt and should have been adapted instead. 
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Oct 23, 2016 03:57
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ninjewtsu posted:the scientist certainly accomplished something. it just wasn't what she wanted to accomplish. I mean, the guy who said that also called her an incompetent rookie who only became commander because she's part of the rich elite and then he shot her .
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Oct 23, 2016 03:56
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when both female leads get fridged you dont have to stretch much to say it has poo poo writing
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Oct 23, 2016 04:00
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Plot to Assassinate Gihren Zabi was a much better manga than Thunderbolt and should have been adapted instead. hell yeah
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Oct 23, 2016 04:01
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karla got fridged?
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Oct 23, 2016 04:01
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ninjewtsu posted:karla got fridged? shes catatonic
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Oct 23, 2016 04:02
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oh lol, i didn't know that i mean obviously i knew she got super hosed up by the end but i wasn't aware of the specifics of it
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Oct 23, 2016 04:04
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was that in the movie and i just missed it in my 4 viewings, or is that what happens immediately after the movie in the manga?
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Oct 23, 2016 04:05
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Sharkopath posted:when both female leads get fridged you dont have to stretch much to say it has poo poo writing Did Io even know what happened to the Captain? Sharkopath posted:shes catatonic Bu that was the end of Karla's character arc, how did it motivate Darryl?
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Oct 23, 2016 04:07
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If there was say, a third woman with lines in Thunderbolt I wouldn't have any issues with it. As it stands it's a gorgeously animated and brutal OVA that's only real problem is the lacj of ant good female characters.
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Oct 23, 2016 04:07
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Improbable Lobster posted:I mean, the guy who said that also called her an incompetent rookie who only became commander because she's part of the rich elite and then he shot her . well yeah, but i thought his beef with her was more that she got her job through essentially nepotism (even though i think she didn't want it?) and that she goes off to cry in her room every time something happens. i don't remember there being much any other indications as to her actual effectiveness, other than obviously not being very morale inspiring. i don't really see why he'd lie to her about that, though there's plenty of reason why he'd get super mad about her reaction (no one who goes off to cry after being praised would rightfully be put in her position through merit)
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Oct 23, 2016 04:09
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Guy Goodbody posted:Did Io even know what happened to the Captain? the female characters don't exist purely to motivate the male characters. they have their own, fairly independent themes. that's why earlier i said, ninjewtsu posted:The female character problem isn't a big deal imo, more worth bringing up in a critical discussion of thunderbolt than in a recommendation. It's not as good as it could be with the female characters but nothing bizarrely gross or weird happen with them, from a critical standpoint the lack of Strong Female Characters is just the closest thing to a major shortcoming that thunderbolt really has. that being said, the fact remains that every female character is struggling with their emotions way more than the male characters and both have plots about being unable to do what they want to. which is certainly A Problem, but not to such an extent that thunderbolt is offensive for it or anything.
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Oct 23, 2016 04:14
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oh i guess you meant that fridge is a term specifically used for killing off women for the purpose of motivating male characters. yeah i'd agree that calling karla fridged is a bit of a stretch in that respect, i'm kind of used to just reading fridged as an unflattering term for "female character dies."
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Oct 23, 2016 04:17
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ninjewtsu posted:oh i guess you meant that fridge is a term specifically used for killing off women for the purpose of motivating male characters. yeah i'd agree that calling karla fridged is a bit of a stretch in that respect, i'm kind of used to just reading fridged as an unflattering term for "female character dies." Yeah, it used to have a specific meaning, I guess it has drifted a bit. Like how the female leads get fridged at the end of Thelma & Louise.
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Oct 23, 2016 04:19
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Thunderbolt manga spoilers. The federation captain is still alive and has amnesia. She's a part of an evil Buddhist Newtype cult. Also there is a female federation pilot who has a sweet Guncannon and is a competent pilot.
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Oct 23, 2016 04:33
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Ethiser posted:Thunderbolt manga spoilers. The federation captain is still alive and has amnesia. She's a part of an evil Buddhist Newtype cult. Hate it when that happens.
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Oct 23, 2016 04:36
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Motto posted:Hate it when that happens. Feds lose a lot of good captains that way.
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Oct 23, 2016 04:36
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Improbable Lobster posted:If there was say, a third woman with lines in Thunderbolt I wouldn't have any issues with it. As it stands it's a gorgeously animated and brutal OVA that's only real problem is the lacj of ant good female characters. 
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Oct 23, 2016 04:38
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Sharkopath posted:hell yeah Plot to Assassinate Gihren is So Good, but it's a bit low on mech fights until the end, and it doesn't have any good stopping points until it's over, which could be a problem for an adaptation. And that's all aside from the fact it leans heavily on UC politics making it a bit trickier to get into as a standalone. But yeah. I'd love to see it. As for Thunderbolt, I'd say that Io slapping Claudia was the moment where I went "Uh..." Because it's not just kind of unpleasant in a modern context, it's where her arc flatlines. Where Io and Daryl head merrily along the road to hell, and Karla at least gets something, Claudia is just kind of a fuckup without any of her fuckupery either leading to change or leading to real consequences. She has no real purpose in the part of the narrative we get animated. (I also think, although it's understandable the manga writer wanted to go on, and I can see Bandai want to be loyal to the original/leave room for sequels, that the anime would probably have been narratively stronger if it kept to the tagline promise that Io and Daryl would kill the other. The whole show was war as a black joke, and it loses something without a punchline.)
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Oct 23, 2016 05:41
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chiasaur11 posted:Plot to Assassinate Gihren is So Good, but it's a bit low on mech fights until the end, and it doesn't have any good stopping points until it's over, which could be a problem for an adaptation. And that's all aside from the fact it leans heavily on UC politics making it a bit trickier to get into as a standalone. Yeah, but that final battle is pretty drat great. Edit: 0080 only had three fights, and is amazing.
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Oct 23, 2016 06:00
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Thunderbolt was very good, thanks goons
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Oct 23, 2016 06:48
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, but that final battle is pretty drat great. the best gundam projects are the ones that push the robots to the background, I've decided.
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Oct 23, 2016 06:58
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Claudia does get some good stuff. At the very end she snaps out of her rut and does a competent job of evacuating her crew to the lifeboats. But then graham shoots her because adults are the enemy and everyone in thunderbolt is an rear end in a top hat.Sharkopath posted:the best gundam projects are the ones that push the robots to the background, I've decided. Which is why the Origin OVAs are so goddamn good. They are excellent character pieces that flesh out fan favourites like Ramba Ral and the Black Tristars without it feeling like fanservice. Also, the soundtrack is amazing. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Oct 23, 2016 |
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Oct 23, 2016 07:02
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Guy Goodbody posted:Did Io even know what happened to the Captain? Second arc is half about him continuing to fight for the Zeon remnants to pay for Karla's medical fees.
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Oct 23, 2016 08:32
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My takeaway from Thunderbolt was that it was a very pretty story about hosed up people. I appreciated that with all pretenses off, Gundam Thunderbolt ends with both Io and Daryl saying gently caress it and trying their hardest to murder each other. I think that thematically, the OVA of Thunderbolt ends the way it needs to and I kind of want to ignore the rest of the manga.
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Oct 23, 2016 15:31
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Ethiser posted:Also there is a female federation pilot who has a sweet Guncannon and is a competent pilot. Does that turn out to be the female pilot who is part of the mob of teenagers towards the end of the OVA? She seemed to get a little more focus than was strictly warranted by her role in what we've seen so far.
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Oct 23, 2016 16:03
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Midjack posted:Does that turn out to be the female pilot who is part of the mob of teenagers towards the end of the OVA? She seemed to get a little more focus than was strictly warranted by her role in what we've seen so far. Nope, total newcomer.
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Oct 23, 2016 16:11
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Arcsquad12 posted:Which is why the Origin OVAs are so goddamn good. They are excellent character pieces that flesh out fan favourites like Ramba Ral and the Black Tristars without it feeling like fanservice. Also, the soundtrack is amazing. I'm gonna go ahead and say it: I can't stand the worship for the Black Tri-Stars. For whatever reason the fan base has made them out to be more than just villains of the week, and I don't get it.
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Oct 23, 2016 16:14
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Shinjobi posted:I'm gonna go ahead and say it: I can't stand the worship for the Black Tri-Stars. For whatever reason the fan base has made them out to be more than just villains of the week, and I don't get it. Well, for one, the Black Tri-Stars get more development in side materials, but they're also extremely memorable villains of the week. They're basically Boba Fett in that they're gotten big over their potential instead of their actuality but at very least even the creators consider them on the level of Ramba Ral. (In The Origin they're among the first MS test pilots alongside him for example.)
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Oct 23, 2016 16:17
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Edit: Double post?
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Oct 23, 2016 16:17
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Shinjobi posted:I'm gonna go ahead and say it: I can't stand the worship for the Black Tri-Stars. For whatever reason the fan base has made them out to be more than just villains of the week, and I don't get it. Very unique character designs that appeal to the young female fans
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Oct 23, 2016 16:26
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Guy Goodbody posted:Very unique character designs that appeal to the young female fans Ortega in particular secured that all-important elephant seal demographic.  
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Oct 23, 2016 16:35
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My favorite part of reading The Origin was when Amuro runs into the Tri Stars a second time and completely clowns them
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Oct 23, 2016 18:22
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