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shut up blegum posted:You could just not get the achievement I have USES for those 6 coins son
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Oct 26, 2016 08:58
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Coolguye posted:I have USES for those 6 coins son Just defend someone's safehouse while it's being raided 
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Oct 26, 2016 09:36
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Dead by Daylight just got Mike Meyers. I think we're in for a treat this year.
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Oct 26, 2016 13:32
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It'd be pretty loving unfair if Dead by Daylight gets a really cool tie-in on its first year, yet we don't get loving Ash Williams. Wait, Vox, we're getting the Canadian Comedian Heister or do you mean Micheal Myers?
Crabtree fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 15:42
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hey now, nothing's been announced...yet
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Oct 26, 2016 15:45
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Crabtree posted:Wait, Vox, we're getting the Canadian Comedian Heister or do you mean Micheal Myers? Sorry to disappoint edit: someone on reddit just pointed out that HRT now don't spawn at all. There were problems with HRT in the past, but their total exclusion is mystifying. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 15:49
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So what's this talk about getting Austin Powers as the Halloween heister?
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Oct 26, 2016 16:54
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How did we not get a Shadow Warrior 2 DLC? Where's my Wang, Almir?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:33
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in your pants
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Oct 26, 2016 17:56
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Coolguye posted:in somewhat related news, i am basically assuredly going to try to find a way to cheat Robbedacop out because I have fewer than 10k kills and i'm rapidly running out of other things to do aside from Ultimate Heister and that one. when I finish Ultimate Heister, Robbedacop is getting cheated. gently caress grinding kills, this isn't loving everquest. I've been messing around with lua lately and I figured out how to duplicate gage coin functionality for the safehouse (that is, complete a set of packages -> get 1 continental coin) among other things but I've also been looking into how to set my Robbedacop numbers to, at least, my post-FBI files total. Starting over this deep in the game's lifespan for a number that huge on what's meant to be a lifetime-achievement trophy is not motivating for those of us with thousands of hours in the game. Haven't found anything yet.
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Oct 26, 2016 18:01
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my current theory on how to cheat Robbedacop goes something like this: 1) open a heist on normal (something like four stores) 2) kill 2 guards in stealth 3) open cheat engine and look for '2' 4) go loud, use the team AI as cover as you kill 5 more cops 5) tab out and look for '7' 6) repeat steps 3-5 until you are down to only a couple of memory locations 7) set memory locations to 10k 8) finish heist if you end up with like 10k kills on the result screen, you've got it. run the heist again and set it back up to like 10, 50, or 100k (whatever you're comfortable with) and just do that as quickly as possible. to be clear, I have 0 idea how well this will work because I haven't tried it, but it's the basic idea for running cheat engine on most stuff so ostensibly it should work
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Oct 26, 2016 18:25
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Dr Cheeto posted:How did we not get a Shadow Warrior 2 DLC? They'd have to add double jumps, side strafing, a disjointed story line and only 12 hours of content including side missions if they did. Game still rocks
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Oct 26, 2016 18:55
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Do goons even play 1D are we all still collectively afraid of touching it?
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Oct 27, 2016 05:41
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i beat all the heists on 1d in one try before i ate breakfast this morning. its so easy a small child could do it no sweat
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Oct 27, 2016 05:46
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Crabtree posted:Do goons even play 1D are we all still collectively afraid of touching it? well I know at least five with the Ultimate Heister statue legit, and at least four more working on it, so...yes?
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Oct 27, 2016 06:17
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I have almost all the stealth ones and a handful of the loud ones, but I'm mostly waiting on some sort of patch. Passing the loud heists is heavily luck-based at this point.
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Oct 27, 2016 06:38
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I don't agree. There are layout advantages which have a significant difference on two maps that I can think of: Breakout D1 (don't get a SWAT van, it's too wide open to try and play around with one of those) and Bomb Forest (get that upper-right train car) and otherwise player skill and group composition will carry it - that's not luck. For example, van location doesn't mean a thing on Aftershock - best strategy is to rotate around the map anyway, so no van is in a bad place for you to swing by and restart a saw. Even a non-restarting drill on Hotline D2 is not a guaranteed failure state, and back when that was introduced on DW it pretty much was - Sure, having one makes it easier, but it's entirely possible without a restarter. I group 'having a solid strategy' under player skill of course - clicking heads isn't all you need to be good at to carry your weight on a 1D heist, though you do need to be good at clicking heads. Knowing where to hold out, how to manage a fade, what loadouts the team needs, and so on. Psion fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:04
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Psion posted:I don't agree. There are layout advantages which have a significant difference on two maps: Breakout D1 (don't get a SWAT van) and Bomb Forest (get that upper-right train car) and otherwise player skill and group composition will carry it - that's not luck. and to be clear what (i'm pretty sure) vox is referring to is that not just the health but also the spawn groups on 1D are mean to the point of having no-win situations right now. you can have a plan that works great for everything you could reasonably expect to deal with, but it WILL fall apart when four bulldozers, six shields, and a handful of tasers all show up within 10-15 seconds of each other (which happened three times in a row in various arrangements of Aftershock when i was trying it with some friends the other day, and twice they actually pincered us with the shields and tasers on one side and the bulldozers behind). with a group like that rushing you, you're just going down. even if you saturate the area with explosives, you're going to down each other because you're all dodge builds/armor is pointless. there's not really a ton of accountability for negative consequences in 1D right now, which means people who aren't playing this game as one of their primary preoccupations right now (e.g., most of the thread) are going to run into an experience like that, wonder why they're playing 1D instead of [insert here], and write off 1D until they feel like they have a reasonable amount of agency. or to put it another way, the most reliable way to beat 1D right now is to understand the map and AI spawning mechanics enough to be able to disrupt those mechanics on that specific map, precisely so really rough groups like the above don't happen. your example of Aftershock of just trawling around the map carrying a cop procession is a great example. it's completely anti-logical that you'd be able to do that, and pruning the cop-ball so it follows you properly without taking an unacceptable amount of damage isn't talked about anywhere in game and the learning process amounts to "get your dick caught in the doorway 50 times" or "have someone who's sperged over the long guide tell you how that crap works." that doesn't feel like skill to a lot of people, including myself. it feels like cutting gordian's knot because you're not addressing the problem at hand, you're addressing the underlying problems with the problem. and, note, i'm actually chipping away at the difficulty slowly. e: as an afterthought, i'm typically a huge fan of cutting goridan's knot, but if you want to apply that same logic to video games, in general, you're starting to talk about mashing the corpse cleanup button in stealth so the pager doesn't go off and other similar bullshit. exploiting well known flaws to dodge a challenge doesn't make anyone clever or skilled. or, put short: just because something is a possibility doesn't mean it's a good situation, and that sentiment rather neatly sums up 1D right now IMO. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:15
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Coolguye posted:e: you're starting to talk about mashing the corpse cleanup button in stealth so the pager doesn't go off and other similar bullshit.
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Oct 27, 2016 07:25
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Crabtree posted:Do goons even play 1D are we all still collectively afraid of touching it? I ain't touchin 1D until overkill figures out that scaling enemy health with difficulty is totally bush league
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Oct 27, 2016 07:28
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I appreciate your explanation, Coolguye. I still disagree it's luck based. quote:you can have a plan that works great for everything you could reasonably expect to deal with, but it WILL fall apart when four bulldozers, six shields, and a handful of tasers all show up within 10-15 seconds of each other This is where team composition comes into it - I dealt with that poo poo on every 1D heist. You have to have people capable of handling every special, and you have to accept that some specials are someone else's job, and that can be dangerous. So a dodge/pistol guy with shockproof is going to handle your tasers and your dozers, and they need to zero in on that like lightning, but they aren't doing poo poo to a shield. Your guy with an HE bow and the china puff and the MGL or whatever has to stay on top of shields, and call out dozers for the pistol guys to come in and murder fast. Somebody with a 308 or something is on sniper duty. It's tough, I don't want to pretend otherwise, and it's really rude, but it is something where player skill can defeat the bullshit the spawn logic throws at you. How about this: 1D is unfairly demanding of both individual skill and individual builds as well as requiring every player to be able to play, at a high level, builds potentially outside their comfort zone because the team needs that specific composition? You can be the best player in the world but if your team composition isn't right, you're toast. But if you have that composition and you have players skilled enough to do it, 1D is more than possible. (fwiw we had at least one guy in ICTV on every loud 1D heist, and he sure as gently caress carried his weight. It ain't all dodge builds.  )
Psion fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:30
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To be clear, I was referring to the spawn limit on 1D causing half or more of all enemy units to freeze, as if the player is using national guard response. Depending on how/where this happens (and it's heavily random), you can wind up fighting 20 cops in what feels like a difficult challenge, 80 cops which will down you instantly regardless of behavior, or no cops at all, because all 80+ of them are stuck halfway across the map. It is indeed possible to exploit this to an extent, but it's mostly random chance. The flat damage and increased range, coupled with this set of problems, means that prevailing on 1D is largely a matter of luck and persistence that only feels like a product of skill. To the extent that folks have a "winning strategy" on 1D that feels like it lets them survive the assault, it's likely just that they are in a location that causes a large number of cops to effectively stop existing.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:30
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shut up blegum posted:Wait, does this work? you need a mod to invoke the corpse cleanup routine, it's not in the main game, so it's more overtly cheating than exploiting an AI bug. however, it does work because the game doesn't actually keep track of how many dudes with pagers have been shot, only responded to by the player. so yes, if you set up a button like that, it will work and you can kill all the guards in any stealth heist you like. the specifics have been known for years now though, much like the game's tendency to barf on itself when it has to deal with a lot of cop pathing. incidentally, that is what happens when you lead cops on a merry chase - the game has to consistently re-plot the paths of the cops you're carrying around, which leaves comparatively little time for actually hurting the players.
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Oct 27, 2016 07:32
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Discendo Vox posted:To be clear, I was referring to the spawn limit on 1D causing half or more of all enemy units to freeze, as if the player is using national guard response. Depending on how this happens (and it's heavily random), you can wind up fighting 20 cops in what feels like a difficult challenge, 80 cops which will down you instantly regardless of behavior, or no cops at all, because all 80+ of them are stuck halfway across the map. It is indeed possible to exploit this to an extent, but it's mostly random chance. The flat damage and increased range, coupled with this set of problems, means that prevailing on 1D is largely a matter of luck and persistence that only feels like a product of skill. To the extent that folks have a "winning strategy" on 1D that feels like it lets them survive the assault, it's likely just that they are in a location that causes a large number of cops to effectively stop existing. I think you need to step back a minute before you - I will assume unintentionally - insult everyone who's completed 1D loud jobs by saying "actually you aren't good, it was just luck," because that's kinda rude. Let me assure you, there were a lotta real angry cops shooting at us - including bullshit special phalanxes like Coolguye described - on most 1D heists. I am capable of telling the difference between 20 cops on map shooting at me and 80 cops on map doing the same. Now, for sure, what you describe happened - was there the occasional cop staring into the floor or ceiling, sure, absolutely. Was it the norm? No. And it's terribly arrogant of you to presume it's "likely" that we, and everyone else who's completed 1D, just 'happened' to be in a location which made cops stop attacking. I would also argue it falls apart in the statistical improbability of a group somehow managing to divine the perfect 1D spot in one try on multiple heists in a row, yet, we cleared multiple 1D heists in one try in a row. If nothing else, we can agree 1D punishes mistakes harshly and very, very quickly - inasmuch as you are then dead. The margin of error for fumbling into the perfect cop AI deadzones is therefore drat near zero, so it's even more improbable. Psion fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:38
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Psion posted:I appreciate your explanation, Coolguye. I still disagree it's luck based. frankly, bullshit: sure, you can deal with 2 bulldozers, their 2-ish shield butt buddies, and the odd taser, but even when we had people set up specifically for anti-bulldozer duty, cop crowd control, phalanx busting, etc there are simply situations where there are too many targets for anyone to respond in the amount of time the game gives you - which naturally gets even smaller in bad special spawn situations in particular. staying on top of these spawns is not useful feedback when the game spawns 4 shields, 3 tasers, and 2 bulldozers at a time in various spawn groups, and picks from these spawn groups psuedo-randomly. it is one hundred percent possible for all of the above to spawn within 5 seconds of each other, and then for some or all of them to spawn again 5 seconds later. the player has no way of even being aware of these spawn patterns, and trying to camp the spawn to keep them controlled is suicide in 1D. because the spawn limits are much higher and all it takes is an extra director command to go through at the wrong moment or for the host to have a good enough machine to let the inactive cops rip loose with their 100% accuracy rate once or twice more often than otherwise to pulse out a volume of damage that will wreck the plan that conforms perfectly to the meta laid out by this thread/the steam forums/reddit/etc - we all actually pretty much agree what is needed and what is useless on 1D. if this is not "luck" then we're not using the same definition of luck. i would agree there are a number of maps where 1D works okay, but i wouldn't call it the majority of the maps out there by a long shot. i've beaten a handful of my loud 1D heists on the first try too but they are outnumbered by the ones where i have to go into programmer mode to figure out how best to gently caress with the AI. e: also for what it's worth there are a lot of situations where you can make cops stop attacking for various reasons, and if you ever used sentries in your builds chances are great you were - intentionally or not - exploiting some. rats and cook off, for example, you can suppress about half of the overall cop activity on the second floor by putting a sentry on top of almost any box in the large room where the meth lab spawns, due to the goofy interaction between the way cops prioritize sentries and how especially the rank-and-file assault rifle cop reacts to that. that helps a tremendous amount with not just pulling off the kills you need, but also extending the fade period, since there will be a non-trivial number of cops in the very center of the map that must process retreat commands. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:46
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Psion posted:I think you need to step back a minute before you - I will assume unintentionally - insult everyone who's completed 1D loud jobs by saying "actually you aren't good, it was just luck," because that's kinda rude. look here buddy vox didn't spend hours on his stupid design fanfiction to have someone come in here and enjoy 1d more than his perfect shining example of gameplay clearly you just got lucky. if you were playing an actual skill based difficulty, like DEATH VOX™ you would be having a much more fun time.
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Oct 27, 2016 07:52
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Well, we agree camping 1D spawns is suicide, yes. So I'm a big fan of not doing that whatsoever at any time. Explain to me a little more of your Aftershock strategy, please? Where are you when you're getting 12 specials dropped in your lap with no time to react?Coolguye posted:e: also for what it's worth there are a lot of situations where you can make cops stop attacking for various reasons, and if you ever used sentries in your builds chances are great you were - intentionally or not - exploiting some. never used a single sentry on 1D except as a gimmick on one transport where I put one sentry next to the van after all 4 of us were in the escape zone, so I'm gonna say that one didn't count Psion fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 07:56
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It's terrible that One Down's most popular/viable winning strategies involve just setting up a super tight fort and playing the game like a cover-based shooter or risking a series of chain downs. Now I know this doesn't apply to every map but a lot of maps feature long open expanses for a ton of opportunities for Zeals to fire RPG bullets at long range with insane accuracy. It's become both tedious and boring. At least on Death Wish you can still run and gun mowing down countless enemies without worrying about taking a 250+ damage glancing bullet. At the very least the sheer health of Zeals need to be toned down. I'll grind though it eventually but the slog that was Lab Rats One Down and Bomb Forest really got me annoyed at 1D. At least I managed to complete Lab Rats 1D...
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Oct 27, 2016 07:56
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TopHatGenius posted:I'll grind though it eventually but the slog that was Lab Rats One Down and Bomb Forest really got me annoyed at 1D. At least I managed to complete Lab Rats 1D... For sure, 1D needs some help. The accuracy, I have to believe, is meant to incentivize bringing flashbangs. 24-27 flashbangs a heist is, no poo poo, critical to winning. If you asked me to beat every 1D heist without flashbangs I'd refuse instantly. Do I think it's good design to basically mandate a deployable along with more or less mandating a team makeup, individual builds to the highest degree, and all the other things 1D does? haha no Also, please accept my condolences: you picked two really bad maps to start 1D on. The worst 1D single-day heists, in my opinion, are aftershock (easily the worst) and bomb forest. And lab rats is a strong contender.  like, I can't say "it gets better" but ... it gets ... less bad?
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Oct 27, 2016 08:05
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I did a fat chunk of 1D heists loud and stealth, and I feel like I've had enough until they re-balance it. I guess I never felt rewarded for beating it, more like I just kind of brute-forced something that was blatantly un-fun. Death Wish was different in that it was pretty awful at first for the version of the game it was released to, but once the game added features and we figured out how to do the mode, it felt like you could get a good grasp of what was going on, and could regain control of a situation if lost. Meanwhile, if I miss a crossbow bolt in 1D, that just leaves room for a dozer to show up and down everyone near-instantly. I guess what I'm saying is that I can beat it, but I just don't feel satisfied when I beat it, so I have no real urge to keep it up. There's some room for it to actually be a decent mode. Hell, we actually made a breakthrough by effectively using ECM Feedback for a few of the heists. I'm probably in the minority when I say I actually kind of like how beefy the cops are, but I'm probably not outside the majority by stating that the damage and accuracy they get are dumb. I think if they realize the potential and can do actual interesting things, it has possibilities, but it's just so unfulfilling for what i put into it that I'm gonna wait.
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Oct 27, 2016 08:31
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Psion posted:I think you need to step back a minute before you - I will assume unintentionally - insult everyone who's completed 1D loud jobs by saying "actually you aren't good, it was just luck," because that's kinda rude. I, too, have completed 1D loud jobs. It is luck. Luck is the overwhelming factor in 1D loud jobs. Payday 2 was routinely unable to handle the existing max spawns on DW, which was ~44. 1D spawns 84 police. These are all supposed to be pathing to the players and attacking at once. Heavy zeal police (probably by far the most dangerous unit on 1D) deal 225 damage at higher than 70% accuracy at any range below 60m. For comparison purposes, the entire navigable area on the safehouse raid is less than 60m long. The default player health is 230. Black dozers did the same damage on DW, but at a range of 5m with a focus delay. No one is surviving sustained fire from zeal units. The only reason 1D is possible right now is that, as is most apparent on the safehouse raid, large numbers of enemies are not spawning, moving, or firing properly. When your team holes up in a position or bottleneck (and at 84 police, many innocuous locations in the map can be a bottleneck), you are actually encountering a tiny proportion of the police the map is trying to handle at any point in time- often only a couple spawngroups that still have a clear priority path identified are actually mobile. Is there a level of competence necessary to survive on 1D? Sure; you have it, and so do I. Beyond that point, though, we are rolling dice and hiding behind props.
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Oct 27, 2016 08:49
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I feel like there's luck in certain factors, and that most of the failures and successes I saw were due to them. There were times when we were moving bags through open ground where 95% of other times we should have all been downed but we were just lucky and didn't get hit that time. Or those times where I stood up for an instant to throw a flashbang but got caught with the 2-3 necessary bullets to down me before I could even start a wind-up. On those ends, it's entirely luck-based and you can't debate that for even a second. That's one of the reasons why I find 1D unfulfilling. Any time we beat it, it felt like there were moments where we should have all died but just didn't that one specific time, but when we lost, I felt like it was from factors that were out of our hands a vast majority of the time, like a cop 50 meters away on a dark map. On the other hand, there were successes and failures that happened for non-luck reasons. Tactics we came up with that beat the mission fairly or mistakes that genuinely lost it for us, like the time on Transport: Park where we went "heck with it ECM feedback (RIP Scalding Coffee)" and we won. But on the same note, we only beat that because the escape arrived quickly and directly on top of us. If it was on the other side of the map, we would have lost because it was open ground and the mechanics were busted. The problem is that those moments of winning through control were far more in the minority than being insta-downed from across the level through a keyhole, or surviving a hail mary bag run that would have lost it for us a majority of other times. If they want to take a look at 1D and make it a legitimate difficulty challenge, those moments need to have more control or punish lack of good play in order to work. It was like the whole Hans debacle in Killing Floor 2. Yeah, that's great that your team went all max-level berzerker and beat him with one living player left, but I'm betting that the dude who got insta-killed by melee or hitscan attacks for no good reason or lack of good play at the start the match didn't find it very fun.
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Oct 27, 2016 10:05
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Can anyone confirm or deny that akimbo SMGs work for the 25 enemies in 25 seconds trophy? Also, has anyone got a good spot for it? There's an enemy spawn in a back closet area on Undercover, but I don't own that one. It also seems like they moved the Watchdogs day 2 spawns that used to be behind the shipping containers to just feed infinite swat corpses.
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Oct 27, 2016 10:44
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Akimbo quad mag krinks with all oppressor skills, aced swan song and aced bulletstorm was how I got that trophy. Try Diamond. The first timelock gate with the rooms on both sides is a good area for bunching a lot of cops in a tight space.
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Oct 27, 2016 10:58
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Can anyone confirm or deny that akimbo SMGs work for the 25 enemies in 25 seconds trophy? Also, has anyone got a good spot for it? There's an enemy spawn in a back closet area on Undercover, but I don't own that one. It also seems like they moved the Watchdogs day 2 spawns that used to be behind the shipping containers to just feed infinite swat corpses. Metal recommended I do Birth of Sky on normal difficulty by running through the plane once without killing anybody, then running through it a second time while killing everybody. Got it on the first try.
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Oct 27, 2016 11:02
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In a shocking turn of events, Vox and Coolguye reveal their inability to handle the challenge of OD and repeatedly insist that winning or losing is based on factors beyond player control, absolving themselves of personal responsibility.
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Oct 27, 2016 15:03
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LuciferMorningstar posted:In a shocking turn of events, Vox and Coolguye reveal their inability to handle the challenge of OD and repeatedly insist that winning or losing is based on factors beyond player control, absolving themselves of personal responsibility. In unrelated news, "git gud" continues to be a fantastic way to excuse questionable design choices. More at 11.
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Oct 27, 2016 17:12
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JohnnyOso posted:In unrelated news, "git gud" continues to be a fantastic way to excuse questionable design choices. More at 11. You may note that neither Psion nor I are arguing that the design choices in OD are necessarily good. We're simply pointing out that, by summoning your demonic powers to get good, you can overcome the OD challenge, instead of whining about how it's just luck.
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Oct 27, 2016 17:19
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LuciferMorningstar posted:In a shocking turn of events, Vox and Coolguye reveal their inability to handle the challenge of OD and repeatedly insist that winning or losing is based on factors beyond player control, absolving themselves of personal responsibility. dont answer back, you twat
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Oct 27, 2016 17:29
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Nerfing down bows yet again, are they finally including them in certain skills or is this purely "They're all using them now on 1D, nerf it down"?
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Oct 27, 2016 17:32
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