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UmOk posted:Good argument. But why is it OK for Empire and Jedi to change previous movies? He already explained that a few times. Not in a very satisfying way mind you, but he did answer that question already.
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Oct 27, 2016 18:50
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:Your analysis of TFA was challenged a few times. You just kind of ignored their arguments and accused people disagreeing with you of not agreeing with it because it wasn't stated in the movie. Such as?
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Oct 27, 2016 18:51
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Cnut the Great posted:Admittedly it is kind of baffling because if she turns out to be related to Luke everyone will just go, "Yeah, no poo poo" It really doesn't have to be a shocking twist, though. I think it's really more of a "Palpatine is Sidious" situation: not technically stated anywhere until we reach a big dramatic moment, but the suggestion is incredibly blatant if you pay attention to the clues.
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Oct 27, 2016 18:51
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Rey inherits a lightsaber that brought familial strife and calamity to its previous owners, and was separated from each of them by violence. In both cases the replacement of the weapon coincided with the rejection of the teachings of Jedi orthodoxy. She doesn't want it.
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Oct 27, 2016 18:56
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The falcon was traveling at relativistic speeds to cloud city and thus experienced time dilation Hyperspace does not incur time dilation I hope this answers your questions about the movie.
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Oct 27, 2016 18:56
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Zoran posted:It really doesn't have to be a shocking twist, though. I think it's really more of a "Palpatine is Sidious" situation: not technically stated anywhere until we reach a big dramatic moment, but the suggestion is incredibly blatant if you pay attention to the clues. The Palpatine thing was known to millions(maybe I'm being generous there?) of people who had read about him in the EU or seen his name on an action figure. Rey's situation just seem very predictable on its face but there's been no official materials that have outright confirmed anything.
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Oct 27, 2016 18:59
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Brainiac Five posted:It's an interesting inversion of the Sword in the Stone, which Arthur lost due to his unrighteous acts and had to replace with the pagan Excalibur, but here the sword itself is the unrighteous thing. I do think Luke will/should reject it. Everything contained in every Star Wars movie to date says that he can't/won't take it, so tbh the only interesting thing they can do at this point is have Luke grab it and start swinging away while making his own lightsaber noises.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:00
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sassassin posted:Everything contained in every Star Wars movie to date says that he can't/won't take it, so tbh the only interesting thing they can do at this point is have Luke grab it and start swinging away while making his own lightsaber noises. Jar-Jar can run in from off screen and take it.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:02
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sassassin posted:start swinging away while making his own lightsaber noises. A time-honored tradition of Star Wars actors!
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Oct 27, 2016 19:05
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Basebf555 posted:The Palpatine thing was known to millions(maybe I'm being generous there?) of people who had read about him in the EU or seen his name on an action figure. Rey's situation just seem very predictable on its face but there's been no official materials that have outright confirmed anything.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:15
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:Your analysis of TFA was challenged a few times. You just kind of ignored their arguments and accused people disagreeing with you of not agreeing with it because it wasn't stated in the movie.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:26
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Kylo Ren is right that the lightsaber should go to him. He's the one struggling to understand Darth Vader.Lord Hydronium posted:It was the same way with Palpatine, though; despite everyone knowing that Emperor Palpatine looked just like this Darth Sidious fellow, official materials were really cagey about actually saying they were the same. As in, they didn't until ROTS came out, even though there were a number of books and comics whose plot only made complete sense if you knew it. If you don't know their names and don't notice that they're the same actor (in particular: if you get so immersed that you also fall for the infallible ability of hoods to conceal identities), the reveal happens at the end of Attack of the Clones.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:47
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Bongo Bill posted:If you don't know their names and don't notice that they're the same actor (in particular: if you get so immersed that you also fall for the infallible ability of hoods to conceal identities), the reveal happens at the end of Attack of the Clones. It's never explicit until Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin in ROTS.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:55
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temple posted:The point about feudalism is like right at the beginning of the thread. Where the definition of feudalism became "whatever I say it is". I did not employ the term incorrectly, and even cited sources to the effect. Even if I had, semantic quibbling is not a rebuttal.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:58
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The duplicity was for the characters in the movies not the audience It isn't a who done it .
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Oct 27, 2016 19:58
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euphronius posted:The duplicity was for the characters in the movies not the audience Right. The point I was making was that the prequels technically had a "shocking reveal" that wasn't actually a big surprise for the audience, and wasn't intended to be. I believe that Rey's heritage is the same sort of thing: the obvious answer is the correct one, and the shock will be reserved for the characters in the story, not for the viewers.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:04
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Zoran posted:Right. The point I was making was that the prequels technically had a "shocking reveal" that wasn't actually a big surprise for the audience, and wasn't intended to be. I believe that Rey's heritage is the same sort of thing: the obvious answer is the correct one, and the shock will be reserved for the characters in the story, not for the viewers. Agreedo It's clear Lando is her father.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:07
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Her mom is the woman with lines in ESB who isn't Leia.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:09
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Zoran posted:Her mom is the woman with lines in ESB who isn't Leia. Cloud city ??
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Oct 27, 2016 20:12
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Zoran posted:Her mom is the woman with lines in ESB who isn't Leia. "Stand by, primary ion control", I presume.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:16
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I don't see how Star Wars has any elements of feudalism other than Jedi being called "Knights" which really has little to do with feudalism itself
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Oct 27, 2016 20:17
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Tenant farmers?
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Oct 27, 2016 20:18
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Han's a peasant that herds nerfs.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:17
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euphronius posted:Tenant farmers? Where is there a tenant farm? Luke is a tenant on his Uncle's farm but none of them swear fealty to a local lord.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:19
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"Listen, strange old hermits in earth tones handing out laser swords is no basis for a system of government!"
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Oct 27, 2016 20:20
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Phi230 posted:Where is there a tenant farm? Luke is a tenant on his Uncle's farm but none of them swear fealty to a local lord. Serfs do not swear fealty. They are bound to the land regardless. I think. Have not done feudal law in awhile.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:22
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euphronius posted:Serfs do not swear fealty. They are bound to the land regardless. Can verify that this is true.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:21
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Luke rejecting the lightsaber proves only that the filmmakers understand Star Wars. They saw Return of the Jedi. Bit deal, so did we. Luke taking up the lightsaber proves that the filmmakers understand story, making suddenly relevant the question a lot of people are already asking ("What happened to Luke?"). Only even better. What's happening to Luke?!?
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Oct 27, 2016 20:24
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Serfs are specifically manorialism, which is distinct from the feudal system that governed obligations of service among the nobility and free towns. But they're both part of the mindset of medieval Europe which is being discussed.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:26
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euphronius posted:Serfs do not swear fealty. They are bound to the land regardless. Yea Serfs don't swear fealty but if we wanna get specific we are not ever shown a Feudal Contact between supposed Serfs and any kind of local Lord. As much as we are shown, the Skywalker family are all free men. Also the place is called the Lars Homestead which either means "a parcel of land equal to 160 acres" or "a legal concept where one owns land by living on it" and I'm inclined to believe the 2nd. At no point are we shown or told Lars is simply working a lord's land, nor are we shown or told that he has any obligations to any lord. We aren't even shown any kind of governance on Tatooine other than an Imperial Occupation of the major cities.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:25
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TFA is specifically what is being called feudal, what with "She'll always be a princess to me" and Rey being "above" the other scavengers by birth..
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Oct 27, 2016 20:26
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Lord Hydronium posted:It was the same way with Palpatine, though; despite everyone knowing that Emperor Palpatine looked just like this Darth Sidious fellow, official materials were really cagey about actually saying they were the same. As in, they didn't until ROTS came out, even though there were a number of books and comics whose plot only made complete sense if you knew it. Official materials really weren't cagey about it at all before the PT began. It was well known, at least amongst fans, that the Emperor's name was Palpatine. Here we have a Senator named Palpatine and he's played by the same actor. Its not made explicit in the movies because little kids back then and in the future can still watch and potentially be surprised by it, but there was never any attempt to surprise the fans with it in the same way that we have these mysterious visions of Rey's that are hinting at things and encouraging people to guess who her parents are.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:27
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Brainiac Five posted:TFA is specifically what is being called feudal, what with "She'll always be a princess to me" and Rey being "above" the other scavengers by birth.. I'm not sure where the Rey being above others comes from, seeing as she lives in poverty and we don't see her enjoying any other privileges that other people don't have on Jakku. And just because Leia is a princess doesn't mean that TFA is feudal. It may mean that Alderaan had Feudalism, but seen what we know of their culture I'm more inclined to believe it was more of a situation ala the UK's constitutional monarchy. The UK has dukes, earls, Queens, princesses and princes but the UK is not a feudal state. Leia was also a senator was she not? (Or was her dad the Senator the whole time) but that does not necessarily mean The Empire was a republic. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Oct 27, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 20:29
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I'm talking about how characters refer to her as above the other scavengers. Feudalism denotes class by blood as proxy for an inherent worthiness. Your net worth has nothing to do with whether you are of noble rank.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:37
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The closest thing to Serfdom we have is the Moff system of the Empire, where Moffs control sectors of space almost with autonomy, and the citizens under the Moff are subject to taxes, military service, what have you. However it is still not feudalism. It more closely resembles the Viceroyalties of the Empire of Spain, since a Moff-dom is not hereditary. Nor is there any power structure where there is a hierarchy of loyalties of lords of varying power. Moffs are appointed military officials who act as governors. Almost a perfect Viceroy.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:37
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm talking about how characters refer to her as above the other scavengers. Feudalism denotes class by blood as proxy for an inherent worthiness. Your net worth has nothing to do with whether you are of noble rank. Can you quote where she is said to be above other scavengers? I can't find it. But yes noble rank is very important. The noble rank was what was hereditary, your blood did not dictate rank but the rank dictated the blood if you know what I mean.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:38
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Phi230 posted:Can you quote where she is said to be above other scavengers? I can't find it. Finn asking why she stays on Jakku when she's a pilot. Kyle's interrogation of her, where he makes the mistake of assuming she's an ordinary scavenger/villein and gets ruthlessly owned by her.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:40
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Brainiac Five posted:Finn asking why she stays on Jakku when she's a pilot. Kyle's interrogation of her, where he makes the mistake of assuming she's an ordinary scavenger/villein and gets ruthlessly owned by her. 1. She says she stays because she is waiting for her parents to come back. 2. Kylo's mistake comes in that she is powerful with the force moreso than Kylo, which Kylo did not expect. Her "bloodlines" still aren't mentioned. maybe this will become a theme if Luke is her father, god forbid.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:50
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Phi230 posted:I don't see how Star Wars has any elements of feudalism other than Jedi being called "Knights" which really has little to do with feudalism itself A character is a princess.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:53
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Does Luke qualify as a prince? He is the legitimate son of a monarch
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Oct 27, 2016 20:55
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