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Lazrin posted:you need those type of people for sure. but you also need the people that push them, that challenge them. the ones that make them think its crazy, because if you're not, do yo really want the boring, reasonable, non-creatives delivering your game? No, what you need is people who can take their dreams and work towards making them reality instead of throwing a tantrum because reality isn't shaping up as amazing as you imagined it right this second. If you want to conquer Russia, it's not pushing the boundaries to say that you can totally do it without winter coats because you have such good ideas about logistics. The game industry actively shies away from hiring designers whose only ability is unrestrained dreaming because the only thing they produce is feature bloat and missed deadlines.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:05
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Lazrin posted:i see a lot of falses, as expected... If a large studio came out and said "We're going to make a game where you can walk around and talk to people, shoot people, do basic RP missions then jump in a spaceship and fly around in space, shoot other ships in space. We'll have planets with landing points and some form of exploration." I would think 'sounds cool, I'll keep an eye out for this'. At the first mention of... "hand-crafted, procedurally generated planets with varied wildlife you can hunt and vegetation you can farm, 1000 player-seamlessly-meshed instances, drink-mixing mini-games, cargo loading featuring grabby-hands™ technology". "It'll rival CoD for FPS gameplay, The Witcher 3 for RPG, Eve for the depth of economy and intrigue, WoW for the greatest ever MMO. Everything perfectly simulated in full 64bit precision fidelities!" I would change my mind to 'that's not going to happen. Why are they promising poo poo which is completely unrealistic?'
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Nov 5, 2016 20:06
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lol lazrin slipping into bargaining stage, with a side of anger. 'at least they tried what did YOU do???' depression a-coming stay safe commando.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:07
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Lazrin posted:i see a lot of falses, as expected... The right thing to do would be to support independent developers with proven track records for creating games, and a history and passion for space games. Like Frontier with Elite Dangerous for example.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:06
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loving lol, yeah all those boring non creatives over at Paradox, releasing their boring games that many love and play for god knows how many hours.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:06
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Lazrin posted:you should put that kind of can't-do thinking on your resume... it's a real asset to an employer. It you wanted to actually make a game like this the only way to would be to start with a good foundation and keep adding expansions like elite is doing. Making a pile of art assets and mocap with nothing functional underneath and hoping you can tape it together with dreams isn't going to work. People are throwing money in a giant bonfire labeled dreams and it isn't going to work no matter how mich you want it to, particularly with a hack like Crobbers in charge driving it into the ground.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:08
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Lazrin posted:you should put that kind of can't-do thinking on your resume... it's a real asset to an employer. to complete every feature promised so far, SC would probably run them another $300m to $500m and another five to ten years and then more years of testing it's great to have optimism, but in reality projects don't get unlimited time or budgets
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Nov 5, 2016 20:09
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Lazrin posted:you need those type of people for sure. but you also need the people that push them, that challenge them. the ones that make them think its crazy, because if you're not, do yo really want the boring, reasonable, non-creatives delivering your game? The bar for "feasible" has always been the same: You do as much as you can realistically achieve with the budget you have. If you try to do too much (as SC does) then only unlimited funding will save you. trucutru fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Nov 5, 2016 |
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Nov 5, 2016 20:09
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Wrecked Angle posted:If a large studio came out and said "We're going to make a game where you can walk around and talk to people, shoot people, do basic RP missions then jump in a spaceship and fly around in space, shoot other ships in space. We'll have planets with landing points and some form of exploration." I would think 'sounds cool, I'll keep an eye out for this'. Seriously, anyone who tried to pitch anything remotely like the scope of SC at any serious publisher would be laughed out the room, and not because publishers are evil nay-sayers who want to crap on the creativity of geniuses, but because hard-earned experience has taught us what a complete boondoggle un unrestrained design scope is.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:10
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Wiz posted:No, what I put on my resume is Game Director (aka creative lead) of Stellaris, an actually released title that is currently being played by hundreds of thousands of people every month. This in addition to AI Programmer, AI Lead, Project Lead and CEO of my own game company that once tried to make an MMO with a vast scope that wasn't even a fraction of SC's scope and failed for many of the same reasons SC is failing. paradox does quality work, but they are safe products. nothing revolutionary, from a creative or technical perspective. nothing wrong with that... monetary success to be had, to be sure. i also don't think you're being entirely fair and assuming that there isn't beyond chris some kind of talented folks doing the best they can to keep it on the rails, and they still believe in the project. don't sell them short. not everyone is a good fit for a project that is trying to push the boundaries. something that takes them out of their comfort zone. look at the glory days of apple with steve jobs. lots of hyper-talented people who thought they could absolutely not do what he wanted, and they left or were fired. but with the right type of folks and staff that is willing to dive-in rather than doubt, that's how things *do* get pushed forward.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:11
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Lazrin posted:i don't disagree with almost anything you said... (i don't think they'd need to start over... but a solid 'reset' after a real assessment at where they are and how to move forward realistically would do wonders.) I think if Mr. Roberts were to be reeled in a little bit, and became a little more grounded, and then they rescoped/refocused a little bit it would go a long way towards creating an actual product. If he were to make some concessions, and allow more autonomy of his staff that might be helpful. I am afraid that a large portion of the backers, and the "Whales" would disagree with this approach though. But I could be wrong about that. I make this suggestion not because Mr. Roberts is necessarily incompetent, but because it is not efficient to have one person gate the progress of hundreds of employees.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:10
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Lazrin posted:i see a lot of falses, as expected... Truthfully, we wouldn't be complaining quite so much if there was some coherent roadmap, instead of a pile of promises delivered from a developer with a checkered delivery past that is known for micromanagement and scope creep. And, even at that, people would be paying for a finished product, not some weird not even CLOSE to real semisortapossiblyprealphabutreallyjustatechdemo.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:11
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Wiz posted:Basically you will always have some 'special' fans but it's very rarely a big problem unless you start actively enabling them with access and preferential treatment. Not to mention cheesecake shots of the Director of Marketing/lead developer's wife, which, no matter which way you slice it, fosters a feeling of intimacy.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:12
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TheAgent posted:SC isnt impossible to do I sincerely doubt it's possible even with the best development team and that much time and money. Like sure, you could make a game that technically checks all the boxes but it's going to be a bloated, crappy mess full of half-baked features with no clear core gameplay, and even if that would be a monumental achievement. There's just too many conflicting parts of the design, too many things that have to fit into each other, and neither manpower nor design complexity scales nearly - the bigger your team and the more features you have to fit into the game, the more time you waste on management, iteration, resolving conflicts and re-doing things.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:12
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"God, what a piece of poo poo."
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Nov 5, 2016 20:13
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Lazrin posted:you should put that kind of can't-do thinking on your resume... it's a real asset to an employer. Because they are not cynically draining money from a cult of broken people?
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Nov 5, 2016 20:13
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Lazrin posted:paradox does quality work, but they are safe products. nothing revolutionary, from a creative or technical perspective. nothing wrong with that... monetary success to be had, to be sure. Truly, complex historical grand strategy games is the safest of the safe. Practically the brown military shooter of 2016. So Lazrin, do tell, where does your expertise on game development come from?
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Nov 5, 2016 20:15
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It only took 10 minutes for his first crash.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:14
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I like how he was so baffled at how user unfriendly everything was. That reaction was almost as bad as my reaction to trying to do stuff in windows 8.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:16
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Lazrin posted:you need those type of people for sure. but you also need the people that push them, that challenge them. the ones that make them think its crazy, because if you're not, do yo really want the boring, reasonable, non-creatives delivering your game? At this point, I don't think it is 'feasible' for you to actually listen to any dissent.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:17
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Lazrin posted:
Sure! But this project is being led by Chris Roberts, Sandi Gardiner, and the Tickler-in-Black with special guest-star Ben Lesnick.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:17
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Lazrin posted:you should put that kind of can't-do thinking on your resume... it's a real asset to an employer.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:17
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Trying to trigger Twitter. https://twitter.com/Sevadus/status/794982127573962752 He's being told to Tweet about Derek Smart. lol
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Nov 5, 2016 20:19
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Lazrin posted:i've asked before in this thread... so what do they do? what would *you* (thread) support? would you jump all over them if they did just that -- stopped and reassessed and rescoped? or would you laud their wakeup call? If they came out tomorrow and said 'Chris Roberts is no longer in charge, his services will be retained in a consultancy role (bullshit), [experienced game lead] is now in charge of this project and over the next few weeks we will be reassessing the viability of many aspects of the game. We have $50m* left to work with and will be seeing what assets and ideas we can retain from previous work." I would change my rating of Star Citizen's future from 'Completely hosed' to 'Under concern'. *Hint, they don't have $50m left to work with, they are hosed.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:21
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Lazrin posted:but with the right type of folks and staff that is willing to dive-in rather than doubt, that's how things *do* get pushed forward. So you agree then, CIG is the least equipped and capable of finishing this — or indeed any — project. Look, the “at least they tried’ argument is a platitude. It's worthless because it tells us nothing as far as establishing any reason for admiration. There's a difference between trying and being outright stupid. SC is a case of the latter. There's a reason why Molyneax ended up being asked “would you say that you are a compulsive liar?” — say what you will about the tone, but he had so consistently confused those two that it had become an actual sensible thing to ask him. He's not alone. To reuse the stupid moon landing analogy. There's trying to go to the moon (and succeeding) by building on the existing Mercury program, expanding that to the more complex Gemeni program, and then, bit by bit, try more and harder things until you're in a position to not explode, fling yourself into space, not crash, not get stranded, not burn up, and not drown. Then there's being stupid by just aiming at the moon and lighting the fuse on the biggest pile of explosives you can find, while wearing a spangly cape that will look swell on camera. In this analogy, guess which strategy CIG has chosen. Tippis fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 5, 2016 |
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Nov 5, 2016 20:20
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TheAgent posted:SC isnt impossible to do and a custom engine that is not named CRYENGINE PlaneGuy posted:is Sandi in charge of that stuff? let's compare: 
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Nov 5, 2016 20:21
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TheAgent posted:SC isnt impossible to do too many others to quote, but this is the kind of discussion i *hoped* could be here once in a while... it's reasonable and civil, and thank you. i've *always* said there's a huge risk that the project can't ever be finished... but the difference is i'm not worried about that, and would rather see someone try. i back nearly every crowdfunded game project for that very reason. i think its time gamers put their money where their mouths are... and yes that means that sometimes they are going to take the same financial hit a publisher would. too many people here though, without any actual proof, evidence or insight, decided that everyone at cig is a pedophile bank robber without any intention to ever make a video game... and you let that drive the conversation.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:21
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Wiz posted:Truly, complex historical grand strategy games is the safest of the safe. Practically the brown military shooter of 2016. So, I tried to teach my 9 year old son how to play EU IV. He wanted to learn, because he saw it was my favorite game. It didn't work out that well unfortunately  It is not casual enough yet!! We ended up playing Plants Vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare instead, which I recommend as a fun, functional, FPS that you can play right now!
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Nov 5, 2016 20:21
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And of course TheAstroPub showed up as soon as he started bad mouthing SC.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:24
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Yeah gamers put the money where your mouth is. Or how about don't identify as a loving gamer and buy a completed product when it's released. Crowdfunding needs to die for all this stupid poo poo.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:23
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Lazrin posted:i don't disagree with almost anything you said... (i don't think they'd need to start over... but a solid 'reset' after a real assessment at where they are and how to move forward realistically would do wonders.) I'd pay David Braben 20 million to make me an 80 million dollar game and keep 30 million.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:25
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As a game designer, these are some things I pride myself on: - Having a good understanding of game design and how to scope it. - Staying connected with the players and understanding their desires. - Playing my own games (this is a huge issue in the industry imo, too many people try to design games without ever playing them and seeing how the things in their head turned out). - Making good games. As a game designer, this is a thing I *don't* pride myself on: - Having ideas. Everyone has ideas. Some of them are bad, some of them are good. Even having good ideas doesn't mean jack poo poo if you cannot create a working plan for turning those things into reality. Sure, a designer shouldn't have to timebox every individual part of every feature at the start of a project, but they should go into the project understanding roughly what is possible with the resources you have and dividing features into must-have/should-have/would-be-nice so that when the scope is inevitably downscaled (and the scope is *always* downscaled) you know what to do next. Saying 'oh we're just going to do everything' has never worked out in the history of mankind.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:26
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Lazrin posted:too many people here though, without any actual proof, evidence or insight, decided that everyone at cig is a pedophile bank robber without any intention to ever make a video game... and you let that drive the conversation. Dude, this a comedy forum with a certain culture. You're mistaken the "funny" posts with the serious ones. The main argument of this thread is that SC is a bloated feature-creeped mess of an idea that is being developed on the wrong engine by a man with a proven record of non-delivery of bloated, feature-creeped space games. There is plenty of actual proof and evidence of those.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:28
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Lazrin posted:too many people here though, without any actual proof, evidence or insight, decided that everyone at cig is a pedophile bank robber without any intention to ever make a video game... and you let that drive the conversation. I am actually worried about the careers of many of the folks at CGI. I can only imagine that a lot of their talent might be fresh into the industry, and they were attracted to CIG by nostalgia and the allure of a "Chris Robert's" game. I think most of the employees there, with the exception of a few notable deplorables, are probably fine, hardworking folks who are trying their best to make a fantastic game. I imagine they have a lot of real talent, and that if they could have a little bit more focused direction they could be improving their skills and delivering an acceptable product. I am sure the majority of the workforce of CIG want to deliver what they promised, and are trying their best to do so. While the rumors about CIG being an unpleasant place to work are *hopefully* just rumors, I am legitimately worried that this experience might sour their experience in creating games and drive otherwise talented individuals out of the industry.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:27
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Wiz posted:I sincerely doubt it's possible even with the best development team and that much time and money. Like sure, you could make a game that technically checks all the boxes but it's going to be a bloated, crappy mess full of half-baked features with no clear core gameplay, and even if that would be a monumental achievement. There's just too many conflicting parts of the design, too many things that have to fit into each other, and neither manpower nor design complexity scales nearly - the bigger your team and the more features you have to fit into the game, the more time you waste on management, iteration, resolving conflicts and re-doing things.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:29
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Lazrin's steady slide into depression is the feel-good story of 2016
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Nov 5, 2016 20:30
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I am actually worried about the careers of many of the folks at CGI. I can only imagine that a lot of their talent might be fresh into the industry, and they were attracted to CIG by nostalgia and the allure of a "Chris Robert's" game. I think most of the employees there, with the exception of a few notable deplorables, are probably fine, hardworking folks who are trying their best to make a fantastic game. I imagine they have a lot of real talent, and that if they could have a little bit more focused direction they could be improving their skills and delivering an acceptable product. I am sure the majority of the workforce of CIG want to deliver what they promised, and are trying their best to do so. Eh, everyone in the gaming industry has worked for someone like Chris Roberts or knows someone who has worked for someone like Chris Roberts. I'm sure it turns some people off, but I think most of them know it's not the whole industry that's like this.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:30
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Wiz posted:Truly, complex historical grand strategy games is the safest of the safe. Practically the brown military shooter of 2016. i've managed large software projects in the healthcare industry with budgets in the tens of millions with application revenue opportunities an order of magnitude more revenue than that. i've also managed people across disciplines on those projects. though they weren't game projects, the factors for success are the same... not everyone here is a dummy.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:30
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Wiz posted:As a game designer, these are some things I pride myself on: Yeah, but would the people you work with have unconditional *FAITH* in the face of any evidence of failure? This is what is important for truly groundbreaking game development.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:32
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Listen 2.6 is coming this year with star marine, my sources then say 3.0 is right around the corner and will redeem star citizen in Q1 2017. But also theres some chance there is nothing, in that case at least they tried.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:33
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