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ArbitraryC posted:I think you're missing my point here. I disliked hillary but was still very much pro both social and economic progressiveness. Trump got less votes than romney, it's not about people voting for trump it's clinton being such a garbage candidate no one wanted to vote for her. That's what happened this election, you should probably stop blaming everyone else for not sucking it up in the name of the greater good and admit trump largely won because of how the democrats ran this election. The it's her turn bullshit is why we have trump, we did this to ourselves and if we're gonna climb back up out of this hole we dug step 1 is admitting that. Even if we strike gold and find another Obama somehow, which is not going to happen. Say he inspires huge turnout and we take the senate and White House back in 2020 or even 2024. We we won't take the house because of gerrymandering, and that's only going to get worse. Then 2 years of maybe something but then mid-term elections roll around and most loving democrats have no clue what those are. gently caress! Harton fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 09:18
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ArbitraryC posted:I think you're missing my point here. I disliked hillary but was still very much pro both social and economic progressiveness. Trump got less votes than romney, it's not about people voting for trump it's clinton being such a garbage candidate no one wanted to vote for her. That's what happened this election, you should probably stop blaming everyone else for not sucking it up in the name of the greater good and admit trump largely won because of how the democrats ran this election. The it's her turn bullshit is why we have trump, we did this to ourselves and if we're gonna climb back up out of this hole we dug step 1 is admitting that. Admit that Hillary wasn't a good candidate? NEVER
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Nov 10, 2016 09:19
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ArbitraryC posted:I think you're missing my point here. I disliked hillary but was still very much pro both social and economic progressiveness. Trump got less votes than romney, it's not about people voting for trump it's clinton being such a garbage candidate no one wanted to vote for her. That's what happened this election, you should probably stop blaming everyone else for not sucking it up in the name of the greater good and admit trump largely won because of how the democrats ran this election. The it's her turn bullshit is why we have trump, we did this to ourselves and if we're gonna climb back up out of this hole we dug step 1 is admitting that. This is the correct answer. People still talking about race and trying to court white voters are missing the point. I voted for Hillary. I didn't like her all that much at first, but I warmed up to her quite a bit during the campaign. Now that we know what happened, I can admit she was the wrong choice for the nominee. We hosed up and we can come back from this by not nominating an establishment centrist with a ton of baggage. It's not going to be the impossible task that people think it is to take back the presidency in 2020. Especially if Trump truly is as godawful as we're all expecting.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:20
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Lightning Knight posted:Call me when you figure out how to get white labor to pick class over race. It's bigger than that. They're right now picking race over class, over country, over species. The left's collective failure to develop an ideology that encompasses all of this is why the pressure from the left continues to be anemic.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:21
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Trabisnikof posted:It's bigger than that. They're right now picking race over class, over country, over species. The left's collective failure to develop an ideology that encompasses all of this is why the pressure from the left continues to be anemic. Because there isn't an answer. So long as white people alone can decide elections the left is dead in the water in the US. Queering Wheel posted:This is the correct answer. People still talking about race and trying to court white voters are missing the point. "Don't talk about race" being code for abandon all issues pertaining to minorities of course. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Next time the black and Latino voters would stay home and then what? Never mind that the Republicans will still leverage racism with their populism.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:24
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They are choosing "jobs" over everything else, and the longer you remain in denial about this with your smug moral superiority complex, the longer their false narrative will be able to poison the well and keep you out of power, unless Trump fails and burn spectacularly on economic issues. If people decide based on immaterial factors like race or nationality first, then the whole "left" is a naive idea that deserves to die because it's founded on fundamentally wrong assumptions.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:25
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Lightning Knight posted:Clinton was a bad candidate who was still better than Trump. White people didn't care enough about minorities to vote against him. Why do they deserve absolution. Actually, clinton impressively did worse across literally every demographic than last cycle: https://twitter.com/SerenaMarsh/status/796228964679385089/photo/1 i think if we're gonna learn anything and make any progress from this election it's gonna be that we need to acknowledge there were other factors at play here than bigotry and it's not about giving people passes or not it's about working towards a common goal between both social and economic divides, the thing that made obama so popular.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:26
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steinrokkan posted:They are choosing "jobs" over everything else, and the longer you remain in denial about this with your smug moral superiority complex, the longer their false narrative will be able to poison the well and keep you out of power, unless Trump fails and burn spectacularly on economic issues. Ah yes, Donald Trump, the candidate who announced his run talking about how jobs are rapists... wait... Not that it matters anymore. Rural white people will burn in Trump's America and they'll blame Democrats too.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:26
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ArbitraryC posted:I think you're missing my point here. I disliked hillary but was still very much pro both social and economic progressiveness. Trump got less votes than romney, it's not about people voting for trump it's clinton being such a garbage candidate no one wanted to vote for her. That's what happened this election, you should probably stop blaming everyone else for not sucking it up in the name of the greater good and admit trump largely won because of how the democrats ran this election. The it's her turn bullshit is why we have trump, we did this to ourselves and if we're gonna climb back up out of this hole we dug step 1 is admitting that. The annoying thing is that nobody seems to think voting for the Democratic platform is worth it just because they dislike Hillary. There's more to the government than the president. Now people are stuck with a government they're totally opposed to because they didn't like the leader of the party they actually do like. Suck it up and vote for the party, not the president.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:26
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Queering Wheel posted:We hosed up and we can come back from this by not nominating an establishment centrist with a ton of baggage. What "baggage" did Hillary have? The only baggage she caused herself was the e-mail server which is how Colin Powell and the entire GWB administration handled their e-mail and they handed nothing over and nobody cared. All the other baggage she had was loaded on top of her by other people. She was the most qualified presidential candidate since George HW Bush so.. for people to just reflexively say she's an obviously poor candidate when so much of the baggage they point to was not caused by her in any way I start to get the sense that there may in fact be some 2nd or 3rd order sexism involved. I'm not accusing all Bernie supporters of being sexist, but there's a very big sexist theme to this campaign where she's hyper loving qualified and has a list of real accomplishments but somehow people just can't seem to trust her. She was a normal politician. She got hosed because the standard for female politicians is higher than for male politicians. Any hint of insincerity or any tiny untruth gets her lumped in the "duplicitous" and "selfish." category. The point I heard made on Keepin' it 1600 a while ago is spot on. People assume Hillary is a liar and Trump is a BS artist. It's actually flipped, and Hillary gets punished for being a BS artist the same way all politicians are BS artists because she's a woman. Trump never gets punished for being a liar because people feel it's priced in.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:28
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Trump never talked about jobs, about the TPP, about China, about "winning", about deals, about his history of getting the best deals... You are just completely blind to the majority of what happened during the election season-
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Nov 10, 2016 09:27
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ArbitraryC posted:Actually, clinton impressively did worse across literally every demographic than last cycle: Obama wasn't popular because of that, he was popular for being a charismatic outsider. Who is our charismatic outsider in 2020? 2024? You guys are still thinking in terms of recovery from this. The party is dead dude.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:27
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steinrokkan posted:They are choosing "jobs" over everything else, and the longer you remain in denial about this with your smug moral superiority complex, the longer their false narrative will be able to poison the well and keep you out of power, unless Trump fails and burn spectacularly on economic issues. For real. I'm black and I recognize this. The majority went with Trump just because they think he will put more money in their pockets with better/more jobs. It's not that they're like "wow I like that Trump is racist" its more like "I don't care about people that aren't my family or community". This is still lovely, and some did love the racism very obviously, but this poo poo isn't hard to figure out.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:29
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ErIog posted:Or maybe the "Hillary is so awful..." poo poo is just white voters giving themselves permission to vote for ethno-fascism. It's this. If you did not vote for Hillary Clinton on election day, you implicitly voted for white supremacy being okay. Full stop.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:29
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ArbitraryC posted:Actually, clinton impressively did worse across literally every demographic than last cycle: So you're ready to believe the polling that called the election wrong.. and it just so happens to be in service of blaming minorities for a Trump win. Okay, gotcha.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:29
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It's anecdotal but I'm in a red state and pretty much all the youth/young adults/politically active democrats I know loved Bernie and went to caucus for him and were really passionate about his run. They loving all hated Hillary. Some voted Hillary because yeah -trump holy poo poo-, but many voted stein/johnson/stayed home. I remember the sanders thread being trolled hard by people saying stuff like Bernie supporters were being dumb manbabby cismales or whatever and how the party didn't need them and it didnt matter because trump could never win. I felt like that attitude was very prevalent in Hillary supporters and they took for granted that people won't always vote for an unlikable, scandal-laden candidate rather than just throw their hands up and say, "well, I tried to make change at the primaries, but not going to choose the lesser of two evils when I felt like the game was rigged from the start. gently caress it" I feel like with the people I know, it wasn't "not excited about Hillary", it was "gently caress Hillary and the dnc in general, I'm not rallying behind a lovely candidate I hate because that just rewards their behavior and entrenches it in the establishment status quo" I'm not defending any of that, but it astonishes me that people are surprised that people didn't want to go out and vote for Hillary. Unless I'm in some sort of bubble, almost everyone I know dislikes her. Progressives, conservatives and moderates alike. They picked the wrong candidate. I voted for her and I hated myself for it. Imagine the average moderate with less sense of civic duty. Again, anecdotal but I think turnout wasn't an issue of suppression or bigots flicking out in droves, it's that people don't loving like Hillary Clinton. Jesus, this poo poo has been obvious since the 90s. Hopefully she doesn't sabotage dems again in 2020.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:30
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The Shortest Path posted:It's this. gently caress you, I voted for Gloria La Riva in a decidedly blue state and this garbage rhetoric is what cost us the election.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:30
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steinrokkan posted:Trump never talked about jobs, about the TPP, about China, about "winning", about deals, about his history of getting the best deals... He talked about Mexican rapists and the wall, Muslim bans, (((globalists))), Chinese plots to fake global warming, and leaving NATO too. White people didn't vote for jobs rear end in a top hat. They voted for racism.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:30
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Mixodorian posted:For real. I'm black and I recognize this. The majority went with Trump just because they think he will put more money in their pockets with better/more jobs. This. It's really not that hard to understand.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:32
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Fascism in every country has always been the result of a toxic cocktail of economic decline and racism, I don't see why people are arguing so hard that it has to be one or the other. Perhaps the truth is... somewhere in the middle? 
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Nov 10, 2016 09:33
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Meow Tse-tung posted:It's anecdotal but I'm in a red state and pretty much all the youth/young adults/politically active democrats I know loved Bernie and went to caucus for him and were really passionate about his run. They loving all hated Hillary. Some voted Hillary because yeah -trump holy poo poo-, but many voted stein/johnson/stayed home. I think the point from the Hillary side is that she has been overly punished for doing things which are standard for politicians. When people whine about how terrible she is, I personally don't think they're realizing how much their perspective has been affected by 30 years of pretty unfair criticism.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:32
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Meow Tse-tung posted:It's anecdotal but I'm in a red state and pretty much all the youth/young adults/politically active democrats I know loved Bernie and went to caucus for him and were really passionate about his run. They loving all hated Hillary. Some voted Hillary because yeah -trump holy poo poo-, but many voted stein/johnson/stayed home. So what you're saying is if they can throw enough poo poo at a woman long enough it doesn't matter how untrue it is, we shouldn't run them. That the right can dictate who is acceptable with their smear campaigns and if white people wont vote for our candidate why did we pick them? This is why the Democratic Party is dead.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:33
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ArbitraryC posted:gently caress you, I voted for Gloria La Riva in a decidedly blue state and this garbage rhetoric is what cost us the election. Nah, racist white people deciding to stay home instead of voting against a fascist is what cost us this election.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:34
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Meow Tse-tung posted:It's anecdotal but I'm in a red state and pretty much all the youth/young adults/politically active democrats I know loved Bernie and went to caucus for him and were really passionate about his run. They loving all hated Hillary. Some voted Hillary because yeah -trump holy poo poo-, but many voted stein/johnson/stayed home. I also remember poo poo like this. And lots of Hillary supporters in the GE threads that seemed to believe the DNC and the Democratic Party were untouchable just because Obama was a popular president. They literally thought they were untouchable because the Obama administration was seen as cool.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:36
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Fascism in every country has always been the result of a toxic cocktail of economic decline and racism, I don't see why people are arguing so hard that it has to be one or the other. Somewhere in the middle, but I think people who want to make the economic argument also have to admit those voters were okay with racism. You didn't have to be a KKK member to vote for Trump. It just didn't have to bother you that the man ran an explicitly racist campaign and said explicitly racist things and hired anti-semites into top jobs in his campaign. That's the point I think gets lost when people start trying to make the economic excuses. Those voters might have all those feelings about the economy or whatever. They also had the feeling that Trump's racism was okay enough to vote for. That says a lot about the people who voted for Trump. It doesn't mean they're all KKK members. It means there's still a very high tolerance for racism in the US.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:36
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So what you're saying is "shovels all sorts of poo poo into your mouth" poop, how unreasonable.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:36
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ErIog posted:Somewhere in the middle, but I think people who want to make the economic argument also have to admit those voters were okay with racism. You didn't have to be a KKK member to vote for Trump. It just didn't have to bother you that the man ran an explicitly racist campaign and said explicitly racist things and hired anti-semites into top jobs in his campaign. Or more likely- it did bother them, but they were more concerned about their economic prospects.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:39
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ArbitraryC posted:So what you're saying is "shovels all sorts of poo poo into your mouth" poop, how unreasonable. I mean you're arguing that we have to allow the right to dictate who is an acceptable candidate to run. Woman? Too bad, smear campaign? War hero? Yup him too. Dedicated public servants? How dare they know their policy and geography, elitists! The last two Democratic presidents were a neoliberal conservative white man we all hate and Barack motherfucking Obama. If he's what it takes to make white people ignore Republican messaging we are right hosed. ^ literally FYGM is ok guys they're white people
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Nov 10, 2016 09:38
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Lightning Knight posted:
Its completely irrational.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:39
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ErIog posted:Somewhere in the middle, but I think people who want to make the economic argument also have to admit those voters were okay with racism. You didn't have to be a KKK member to vote for Trump. It just didn't have to bother you that the man ran an explicitly racist campaign and said explicitly racist things and hired anti-semites into top jobs in his campaign. We've been kind of disagreeing, but I completely agree with this. I've stopped short of saying that these voters are racists, but I think this is true. They are all, to a man (or woman), people who - at best - looked at Trump's racism, looked at their own situation, and said "better them than me" and pulled the lever.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:40
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After decades of the right fringe making GBS threads their pants over the UN, over THE DEBT, over Agenda 21 and other conspiracies to weaken America and steal money from its citizens, Trump came and started pummeling the "globalists", whatever that means, for putting America on second track, he called out the 1% for not caring about the working man and abusing the tax code, he made some "common sense" proclamations about the debt and how America can't be in somebody else's pocket, how there need to be better deals so America isn't giving away its wealth in exchange for nothing, he pummeled past leadership on being too weak in dealing with China and on allowing the NAFTA to hurt American manufacturers, or on hurting American interests and finances by trying to be a world cop, he complained about the weakness of American military strategy... Hell, he even took credit for American companies moving some factories from Mexico back to the US, and said he would convince more to return! He played straight into the most obvious political openings, and it worked, and what is frustrating is that those are the same opeinings that could have been used by the Democrats, but weren't - the overwhelming anti-1% sentiment, the hatred towards the TPP, the desire for a stable economy with low unemployment... But he also made some remarks that were racist, so that is 100% of the reason why he is successful.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:40
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Skanker posted:I think the point from the Hillary side is that she has been overly punished for doing things which are standard for politicians. When people whine about how terrible she is, I personally don't think they're realizing how much their perspective has been affected by 30 years of pretty unfair criticism. What other married pair of politicians have made 130 million in less than a decade on speaking fees? The Shortest Path posted:Nah, racist white people deciding to stay home instead of voting against a fascist is what cost us this election. This is idiotic. What about all the minorities that went missing from 2008 and 2012? Hillary running a lovely campaign is what cost us the election. White people are racist, the sky is blue water is wet... you can't magically change that and have to account for it as a politician. She should've been much more focused on jobs talk. I much rather have diet racists on my "team" than let republicans win.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:41
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Or more likely- it did bother them, but they were more concerned about their economic prospects. Again, if they were actually more concerned about economic prospects and were informed enough to be running that kind of calculation.. then Hillary's policies should have won them. To come to your conclusion on this you're parsing this so closely that "these people are informed enough to have very complex feelings about the economy and which candidate will benefit them economically but also are so ignorant of the policies that they fail to realize Trump doesn't really have policy" I'm sure there's a small percentage of voters like that. Doesn't explain the rest or the majority.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:40
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ArbitraryC posted:gently caress you, I voted for Gloria La Riva in a decidedly blue state and this garbage rhetoric is what cost us the election. So can Hugo Chavez do no harm in your eyes?
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Nov 10, 2016 09:42
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steinrokkan posted:After decades of the right fringe making GBS threads their pants over the UN, over THE DEBT, over Agenda 21 and other conspiracies to weaken America and steal money from its citizens, Trump came and started pummeling the "globalists", whatever that means, for putting America on second track, he called out the 1% for not caring about the working man and abusing the tax code, he made some "common sense" proclamations about the debt and how America can't be in somebody else's pocket, how there need to be better deals so America isn't giving away its wealth in exchange for nothing, he pummeled past leadership on being too weak in dealing with China and on allowing the NAFTA to hurt American manufacturers, or on hurting American interests and finances by trying to be a world cop, he complained about the weakness of American military strategy... Hell, he even took credit for American companies moving some factories from Mexico back to the US, and said he would convince more to return! Hatred of free trade is wrong and bad and we should not be encouraging it. That's the problem. The problem isn't racism. The problem is they want to be given impossibilities and terrible policy. And even if we offer them poo poo we can't give and is impossible, the Republicans can do that too - with racism! And thus they win because they offered more.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:43
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ErIog posted:Again, if they were actually more concerned about economic prospects and were informed enough to be running that kind of calculation.. then Hillary's policies should have won them. Trump was telling people he would slap GM with a 35% tariff if they moved manufacturing to Mexico. It doesn't get much more straight forward when speaking to a rust belt voter than that.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:43
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Skanker posted:The annoying thing is that nobody seems to think voting for the Democratic platform is worth it just because they dislike Hillary. There's more to the government than the president. Now people are stuck with a government they're totally opposed to because they didn't like the leader of the party they actually do like. Suck it up and vote for the party, not the president. The presidential candidate is the standard bearer for the platform. If she can't articulately sell the platform, she hosed it up. Hillary had no big ideas, no understandable policy positions. When asked what she stood for shed launch into rambling thirty second long policy wonk speeches that just do not connect. Donald Trump would say 'build the wall' or 'bring back jobs' or even just 'make America great again'. All of those are easy to grasp aspirational goals, even if they dont loving *mean* anything. I mean Obama won with 'Forward' and 'Yes We Can'. What the gently caress do those even mean? Nothing but they sound like good goals. Hillary never fought for any big ticket projects. She billed herself as the status quo candidate through the entire primary, and for a lot of people the status quo frankly sucks rear end. The recovery completely passed over middle America. They absolutely do not want more of the same. They want to know how Hillary is going to help them, specifically. And preferably in ten words or less. She half assed adopted Bernie's platform after his surprising performances, but with such triangulating insincerity no one seriously expected her to ever follow through. And then of course she never fought for any of the things she supposedly had adopted. Hillary never sold herself, never adopted messaging that wasnt some dogshit 'Im with Her' or 'America is already great' (because no it loving wasnt for the people who ended up defecting) and never presented a case for herself beyond 'WELL IM NOT TRUMP LOL'. Turns out people dont get out and vote against things, they get out and vote *for* things, and Hillary gave them nothing to vote *for* except her historic first vagina. Hillary failed the democratic party and the nation. It was her job to make a case for voting for her, and she failed miserably.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:43
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Why did Obama win the rust belt states as a black man??? What was a big difference he campaigned on between him and Hillary?
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Nov 10, 2016 09:45
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Mixodorian posted:Why did Obama win the rust belt states as a black man??? What was a big difference he campaigned on between him and Hillary? The difference is that Obama is a brilliant orator and public speaker and apparently all Americans give a poo poo about is pretty speeches and soundbites.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:46
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Real talk, Bill and Hillary destroyed the democratic party. People need to come to terms with this.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:46
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