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Like I voted Hillary in the NY primary but I'm 100% willing to admit the Bernie people were right. What good is the safe technocrat choice if you can't even turn out your working class voters or Detroit residents against Donald loving Trump.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:51 |
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# ? May 10, 2024 01:10 |
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Oh, and to be honest, there's an equivalent "deplorables" attitude towards second-wave feminists that has driven a lot of them into FYGM territory. People tend to think "political correctness" is a white men v. everybody proposition, and that is a huge oversimplification. A lot of older, 50-something white women do not like being chastised by tattooed, pierced, poly millennial women with undercuts. Whether it's justified or not, knowing as many older women as I do, I am confident this phenomenon is very real. Progressivism can't take women for granted either, and can't condescend to them. A lot of people are pissed at the idea they have to be in lock-step with the loudest voice in the room.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:54 |
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http://jezebel.com/please-stop-saying-poor-people-did-this-1788813761 Look at these people completely missing the point and still continuing to minimize people's concerns.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:54 |
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Peel posted:Lastly when declaring that people shouldn't be angry or contemptuous of Trump or his supporters, recall that the Republican response to Obama was to immediately melt down about the socialist usurper, and this reaction delivered them the House, the Senate and ultimately the presidency. Perhaps a hard line against Trump, rather than increasing his support, would reduce it by demoralising his softer supporters and hardening opposition, particularly in the wake of his inevitable bungling. The exhortations not to oppose Trumpists are both based on an unsafe assumption and asking something inhuman of people in the firing line of the most repulsive figure to ever assume the presidency. Yes, exactly, the Republicans melted down and *still* didn't attack their own base (at least as far as I could remember) or the voters they needed to swing things - they attacked the guy they wanted to defeat. Attacking, opposing, and delegitimizing Trump is fine and desireable. Being contemptous of his supporters is just going to make them cling to him harder.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:53 |
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you gotta remember that for the white working class vote, obama portrayed himself in 2012 as saving the auto industry (i.e. thousands of jobs in the rust belt) vs. a chariticure of gordan geeko / i.e. economic populism vs a technocrat imagine if hillary had invested in ads like this one from the steelworkers instead of "Trump's crazy lol" *ukalele & glockenspiel music* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7oxlTfqYk0
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:53 |
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/796831076886970368 ok, we are hosed now. Pick posted:Clinton was between a rock and a hard place on appealing to women. Feminism is very divided, enough that I would say even "2nd wave" and "3rd wave" are not distinguishing enough to properly communicate the magnitude of the difference. The first type is primarily grounded in economics. For example, things we take for granted now but needed to fight for: bank accounts without a male co-signer, can't be fired for pregnancy, can't be denied services on the basis of sex. The second is grounded on social behavior. For example, cat-calling, media representation, marketing/body image. I genuinely think Clinton cared more about the former, but campaigned heavily on the latter. Women who are older and who are poor care more about the former, in my experience--and in many cases it is justified, because a person's first priority is food on the table. That is why Taylor Swift weighing in would not do anything to change a Trump-voting woman's mind. whats the difference between 2nd and 3rd. because i know nutjobs like Dworkins started damaging feminism pretty bad.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:55 |
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:55 |
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Pick posted:Oh, and to be honest, there's an equivalent "deplorables" attitude towards second-wave feminists that has driven a lot of them into FYGM territory. People tend to think "political correctness" is a white men v. everybody proposition, and that is a huge oversimplification. A lot of older, 50-something white women do not like being chastised by tattooed, pierced, poly millennial women with undercuts. Whether it's justified or not, knowing as many older women as I do, I am confident this phenomenon is very real. Progressivism can't take women for granted either, and can't condescend to them. A lot of people are pissed at the idea they have to be in lock-step with the loudest voice in the room. maybe those older feminists also shouldnt tell the younger ones that they're just thinking with their vaginas when it comes to supporting candidates
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:56 |
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Dapper_Swindler posted:
2nd wave: pay us equally, stop raping us 3rd wave: burlesque is empowering, anything lena dunham does
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:57 |
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/796831076886970368 Yep, this one is a reallll kick in the nuts.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:58 |
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guts and bolts posted:gently caress Donald Trump, and goddamn it I cannot understand what leads someone to vote for him given his history and personality and qualifications and Trumpness, but taking a hard line against Trump is possible without permanently alienating the people who put him in office; I'm not advocating that we take it easy on ol' Don, but to dismiss his win as a victory of white nationalism and bigotry is short-sighted and a good way to just keep losing This was the hot take I sent to my Rep (Ellison) regarding me thoughts on losing the rust belt based on working at a Wisconsin manufacturing plant for a few years: quote:Now that I've recovered from my election night hangover and blues, I'm just writing to strongly suggest that the Progressive Caucus take an active role in bridging the the enthusiasm chasm to the working class. It is ridiculous that our party can have such poor engagement with what should be their core constituency. The DNC needs to clean house.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:59 |
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Pick posted:2nd wave: pay us equally, stop raping us well where do the sex negative ones fit in, because see them on twitter alot.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:00 |
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Zikan posted:you gotta remember that for the white working class vote, obama portrayed himself in 2012 as saving the auto industry (i.e. thousands of jobs in the rust belt) vs. a chariticure of gordan geeko / i.e. economic populism vs a technocrat Exactly. Obama won those voters because he said "here's a specific concrete thing I did to make your lives less lovely even though my opponents are gonna attack me for it." But yeah, they stayed home on Tuesday because racism.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:00 |
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Dapper_Swindler posted:well where do the sex negative ones fit in, because see them on twitter alot. Depends on what you mean by that. A lot of the lingo is thrown around haphazardly and has no firm meaning.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 22:59 |
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Zikan posted:you gotta remember that for the white working class vote, obama portrayed himself in 2012 as saving the auto industry (i.e. thousands of jobs in the rust belt) vs. a chariticure of gordan geeko / i.e. economic populism vs a technocrat remember when hillary attacked bernie for trying to shut down auto factories (when he wanted to bail them out, but not bail out wall st in the same bill) lol
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:00 |
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GlyphGryph posted:Yes, exactly, the Republicans melted down and *still* didn't attack their own base (at least as far as I could remember) or the voters they needed to swing things - they attacked the guy they wanted to defeat. https://twitter.com/McFlyCahill90/status/796815799671488517 This is a long tweetstorm but like, it's a view into a Trump supporter's mindspace that supports your viewpoint. His supporters-the swing voter ones, anyways, not the actual deplorables-can be our supporters. Because if you have two people speaking to you and one is talking about equal rights and the other is supported by the loving KKK most people are gonna pick #1. Pick posted:2nd wave: pay us equally, stop raping us As I understand it the 1st wave was basically 'equal pay, equal legal rights.' The 2nd wave was basically 'holy poo poo the entire system is rigged against us gently caress the system also gently caress men' and the 3rd wave is the sex positive, more charismatic version of the 2nd wave which is basically 'the system is hosed and rigged against women and it's hurting men too.' That said, the twitter summary of the waves is really really bad. Some 2nd wave literature is insightful, even if you don't want to agree with it. Some 3rd wave intellectuals have really wacky opinions. Etc.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:02 |
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considering that two straight white Christian men were just elected in recommending the Democrats find some of those are their candidates
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:01 |
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3rd wave seems p divided between people who just wanna do what they want at the expense of others, and people who think hey maybe having sex with more than one person is ok. the first seems like a vocal minority.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:03 |
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It's fuzzy. 1st wave includes suffrage and property ownership, so you have to go back a ways and plenty of them were in no way in favor of things like divorce or ladies being in any way "unladylike". 2nd wave you start getting into things like abortion as a political issue. 3rd wave brings a lot of individual expression. There have been radicals and dingbats and assholes at every stage as in any political movement. I personally have an issue with a subset of 3rd wavers seeming distinctly objectivist, essentially co-opting language for practically Randian ends.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:06 |
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Bernie is gonna be speaking on CNN in a couple minutes.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:07 |
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mastershakeman posted:considering that two straight white Christian men were just elected in recommending the Democrats find some of those are their candidates *lights the sherrod brown signal*
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:07 |
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:07 |
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Pick posted:Oh, and to be honest, there's an equivalent "deplorables" attitude towards second-wave feminists that has driven a lot of them into FYGM territory. People tend to think "political correctness" is a white men v. everybody proposition, and that is a huge oversimplification. A lot of older, 50-something white women do not like being chastised by tattooed, pierced, poly millennial women with undercuts. Whether it's justified or not, knowing as many older women as I do, I am confident this phenomenon is very real. Progressivism can't take women for granted either, and can't condescend to them. A lot of people are pissed at the idea they have to be in lock-step with the loudest voice in the room. turns out Smug Liberal syndrome is real and alienating and we need to bring that thread back
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:07 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Zach rules
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:07 |
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Another good article: http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-win-democratic-party-2016-11 quote:Schale, who briefly advised a group dedicated to urging Vice President Joe Biden to enter the Democratic race last year, couldn't help but wonder what could have been. Joe Biden would not have been an ideal candidate. But I can't imagine him losing Michigan.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:06 |
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hahahhahahahahaahaahahahahaaha*slowly descends into weeping*
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:06 |
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Zikan posted:*lights the sherrod brown signal* He'll need to survive 2018 first
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:09 |
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Someone in this forum once joked that American feminism is about putting women in a position to oppress the underclass and I sometimes fear that this was not only not a joke for a chunk of feminists, but applies to other social movements as well.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:09 |
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/796831076886970368 Watching Obama pal around with Trump was absolutely disgusting. There's not enough rope in the world to hang all of these Centrist hacks.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:10 |
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Peel posted:Lastly when declaring that people shouldn't be angry or contemptuous of Trump or his supporters, recall that the Republican response to Obama was to immediately melt down about the socialist usurper, and this reaction delivered them the House, the Senate and ultimately the presidency. I'm only going to respond to this because this sums up how wrong about everything you are and incapable of self examination. Dems got insanely lazy in 2010, and passed down a watered down healthcare law that only plutocrats liked and told working class whites to just eat the scarps given. With the high black turnout, congressional dems essentially thought the Obama effect applied to them and picked the wrong horse. Obama rectified this but 2012, but the damage was done and was mostly saved by an rear end in a top hat like Romney who told poor whites to go gently caress themselves. Until 2016, the Dems ignored them and Rebs despised on a low key level. Until now, democrats were suffering from laziness and poor planning, along with continued apathy. Dems seem to only to care about the Big House and are letting to let republicans win "small victories". Trump understand the frustration of the working class and made the Dems pay for 20 plus years of ignoring the largest demographic in America. Having a tanturm like the Tea Party did won't work, because they gerrymandered the districts to capitalize on angry white dudes. Having a tantrum won't work against working whites, because there are too many of them. They are the majority. Demographics might change in twenty years true, but the changes in America can be so vast as to change that. That isn't, ah, loving good. You have no one to blame but yourself and Woke Corporate Friendly Liberalism. Telling an out of work construction worker about how he has to check his privilege was, in lieu of rebuilding the safety net, dumb and unironically blind to the insane privilege professional college grads have. It is still extremely possible to have this conversations, feminism and other civil rights groups have evolved before. Women's rights groups used to pal around with white nationalist groups and help form lynch mobs, they then went to work with the Black Panthers. poo poo changes and alliances have to change for the betterment of everyone.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:11 |
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Fullhouse posted:turns out Smug Liberal syndrome is real and alienating and we need to bring that thread back I was always getting yelled at in the old feminism thread but considering that I am mad as hell anyway and everything's in the shitter I'm ok with saying that I think that the cause hurt itself by appealing to individual self-interest and segments became egregiously superficial and materialistic.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:11 |
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for real tho all hetero sex is rape because there's an underlying power dynamic of male supremacy that makes uncoerced consent impossible welp lmao cya
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:11 |
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HannibalBarca posted:He'll need to survive 2018 first well at least the bernie dnc will have a goal beyond stamping out third wayism now
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:11 |
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where can I order a bunch of these
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:10 |
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crazy cloud posted:for real tho all hetero sex is rape because there's an underlying power dynamic of male supremacy that makes uncoerced consent impossible welp lmao cya nice. real nice
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:11 |
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DNC throws Muslims under the bus consistently for the last year and a half and then wonders why so many in Michigan voted third party. Hmmmmmm.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:11 |
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mastershakeman posted:where can I order a bunch of these https://shop.hillaryclinton.com/products/the-woman-card hillary's gonna need the money anyway
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:12 |
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mastershakeman posted:nice. real nice
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:12 |
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Oh Snapple! posted:Someone in this forum once joked that American feminism is about putting women in a position to oppress the underclass and I sometimes fear that this was not only not a joke for a chunk of feminists, but applies to other social movements as well. American feminism doesn't mean anything at present, because it has literally no cohesive identity or belief, and is not expressed in any coherent movement.
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:13 |
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# ? May 10, 2024 01:10 |
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Mormon Star Wars posted:DNC throws Muslims under the bus consistently for the last year and a half and then wonders why so many in Michigan voted third party. Hmmmmmm. http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/politics/muslim-american-voters-bernie-sanders-irpt/
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# ? Nov 10, 2016 23:16 |