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Lightning Knight posted:I like that the New England liberal tells us no war but the class war, stand for poor white people and then in the next breath dismisses Republicans backdoor banning abortion with "it will only affect poor people in red states." i assume you're talking about me so let me clarify some stuff for you i no longer live in the northeast and haven't in over 10 years, i do believe economics was the missing democratic plank, and i don't think abortion bans being relegated to poor rural states is a good thing. i was merely responding to someone who claimed that the administration would ban abortion nationally, which it won't do. those are many separate conversations. i believe that the democrats should embrace both radical economic change and keep all their plurality issues because they're both incredibly important. the democrats just lost because they spurned the economic needs of vast swathes of the country. their needs are real and important too. calling them racist, misogynistic bigots isn't going to win the democrats any elections. i want the democrats to WIN elections and make life better for EVERYONE. i also don't think its time to panic as though the world is loving ending. trump is SUPER BAD. but the democrats have a real chance to fix their mistakes and make some real, serious changes that will propel them even further and help the people of this nation. flipping a poo poo and lashing out at everyone you need to win elections isn't going to help you. the democratic party needs to refocus and change is platform so it can WIN. RaySmuckles fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 07:13
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Fojar38 posted:The world doesn't hate the US. They will in four years if they don't yet.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:13
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Crain posted:https://twitter.com/thehill/status/796908320179318784 But but but Bernie and ~sending a message~ and clear consciences! I hope your family stays safe, and I'm sorry.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:14
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Lightning Knight posted:They will in four years if they don't yet. Right now the world is scared shitless that the US is going to turn inward and leave everyone to fend for themselves.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:15
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RaySmuckles posted:i assume you're talking about me so let me clarify some stuff for you My problem with this isn't conceptual. I come from a middle lower class family of truck drivers from Wisconsin, it's not like this dumb absolution of working class white people for prejudice is some academic concept to me. My problem is that white progressives cannot be trusted to not abandon minority issues when it's convenient or fight for them when it's hard. History bears this out every time.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:17
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Odobenidae posted:Yeah, America has the good imperialism. Seeing what Russia does to gays, or even political dissidents, yes. American imperialism is far less sinister than a country run by a a KGB agent who desperately wants to be worshiped like Stalin and Lenin. Though who the gently caress knows what Trump will do. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:b) fbi director comey as bipartisan gesture that went nowhere, who apparently if reporting from both trump and clinton camps can be believed, singlehandedly delivered election to trump with that bullshit last-second stunt He will also never have to answer for it because the Hatch Act is a joke. Guy Goodbody posted:b should honestly be expanded to cover all of Obama's doomed attempts at bi-partisanship There was a post earlier showing a breakdown of last minute voters and they broke hard for Trump. Comey doing his "well I'm not saying we're gonna find anything BUT EMAILS EMAILS EMAILS loving EMAILS" letter was an absolute factor. As was his initial, hostile as gently caress, non-indictment of Clinton. Obama needed to fire him just for that poo poo alone. Comey's final salvo absolutely helped Trump because it ripped the scab off the email wound and that it was obvious bullshit didn't matter because it fed a narrative that was already being pressed constantly. Comey's behavior with the investigation in to Clinton was one of the largest and most effective attacks against her in the entire election because the FBI had a neutral observer kind of status to most people, therefore his condemnation of Clinton was extra bad in their minds. Fojar38 posted:The world doesn't hate the US. I'm less certain of that right now than I was 48 hours ago and this time next year I suspect the rest of the world will be less thrilled about us.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:16
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^^^ Doubtful, I suspect most people are bewildered and will probably wonder what could happen to them as they see far-right movements across the world. Fojar38 posted:Right now the world is scared shitless that the US is going to turn inward and leave everyone to fend for themselves. I've mentioned it before, but a dude in Vietnam asked me this past summer if I was worried about a Trump presidency. I laughed and assured him it wouldn't happen, but I said even if it were too, it should be him and not I that was scared. He agreed. poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:18
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Fojar38 posted:Right now the world is scared shitless that the US is going to turn inward and leave everyone to fend for themselves. I'm well aware. My problem with American foreign policy, like so many things, isn't that I think we can't do good, it's that I think we too often don't do good.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:18
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MickeyFinn posted:50 million people is this country said it is ok to call Mexicans criminals, and 'Blacks are lazy' and brag about sexual assault and threaten our allies with abandonment, and advocate war crimes. All of this is ok if you tell me I'm going to have a job, Yes, yes it is. Have you ever been long term unemployed?
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Nov 11, 2016 07:19
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Evil Fluffy posted:I'm less certain of that right now than I was 48 hours ago and this time next year I suspect the rest of the world will be less thrilled about us. I know this might be hard to see from the center of it all but with two powerful revanchist states in Europe and Asia right now the rest of the world is really, really, really worried about American disengagement. People were all "Yankee go home" during the Bush years because it looked like the End of History and the US was just being bully meanyheads, but that is not the case now.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:19
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Fojar38 posted:I know this might be hard to see from the center of it all but with two powerful revanchist states in Europe and Asia right now the rest of the world is really, really, really worried about American disengagement. People were all "Yankee go home" during the Bush years because it looked like the End of History and the US was just being bully meanyheads, but that is not the case now. Nah, don't worry. We'll invade Syria with Russia!
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Nov 11, 2016 07:20
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Xequecal posted:Yes, yes it is. Have you ever been long term unemployed? Selling out black people to get a job when you're poor and desperate is understandable, it's just also despicable. Solidarity is a lie.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:20
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Lightning Knight posted:My problem with this isn't conceptual. I come from a middle lower class family of truck drivers from Wisconsin, it's not like this dumb absolution of working class white people for prejudice is some academic concept to me. but you NEED them to WIN or there will be MORE donald trumps. how do you reconcile that? you need to appeal to ~white~(all) working class ~men~(people) in an absolutely serious way so they don't feel like you'll abandon them as the democrats have time and time again. the democrats need BOTH serious economic reform AND plurality and social justice they need to be packaged together and sold as mutually beneficial and symbiotic. the party needs to target the billionaire class as its enemy and bring all working people together to fight for each others interests. whether this was actually IN hillary's platform or not, it doesn't matter. people didn't believe it. we need a candidate and a platform with credibility in both of these areas.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:21
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Xequecal posted:Yes, yes it is. Have you ever been long term unemployed? It would probably make more sense if the people listening to that recognized it was a lie being fed to them by someone who lies all the drat time, and has a history of stiffing workers, as well as a history of his companies shipping jobs overseas. Then on top of looking past all that they're okay with rolling those dice knowing it's going to directly harm a bunch of minorities. It's almost like these people are... garbage?
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Nov 11, 2016 07:25
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Lightning Knight posted:Selling out black people to get a job when you're poor and desperate is understandable, it's just also despicable. Especially since black people have to deal with long term unemployment, have to deal with it for longer periods, and at higher rates. But hey, sell everyone else down the river for jobs that won't ever come back!
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Nov 11, 2016 07:24
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Xequecal posted:Yes, yes it is. Have you ever been long term unemployed? Weird how all those people yelling at everyone to just "get a job" for decades all suddenly have "economic anxiety".
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Nov 11, 2016 07:26
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RaySmuckles posted:but you NEED them to WIN or there will be MORE donald trumps. how do you reconcile that? you need to appeal to ~white~(all) working class ~men~(people) in an absolutely serious way so they don't feel like you'll abandon them as the democrats have time and time again. My criticism of this isn't that we shouldn't advocate for policies to help poor white people. In fact as you alluded to we already do and ran on that. The problem isn't one of substance, it's one of messaging. People are literally too stupid to vote correctly or read basic policy platforms and need some nice sounding speech maker to promise them impossible things to show up. That's really bad. What's worse is that I honestly, legitimately don't think white people will show solidarity with people of color. That's why we keep pointing out that white college educated people and women who would've voted Hillary but didn't bother is a big loving deal. They decided personal ideological purity or emails or whatever dumb irrelevant bullshit was less important than voting to protect minorities from fascists. Now you're saying we have to adjust our messaging away from minority rights too. Focus all in on class warfare, bury what few mentions of BLM or LGBT rights we had to cater to the feelings of white people. And you really have to ask why we're concerned white people wont show solidarity with minorities? Maybe you're the model white progressive who truly will stand for minorities when it counts. Historically, though? Most didn't.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:29
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https://twitter.com/Rschooley/status/796961042907566080 lol
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Nov 11, 2016 07:29
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Lightning Knight posted:Selling out black people to get a job when you're poor and desperate is understandable, it's just also despicable. I agree with the first statement. It's sad but true. It is, as far as I can tell, human nature. People care about themselves and their families above anything else, no matter the consequences for others. With respect to the second, perhaps, but is there an alternative approach that can possibly work? Complete solidarity in the long-term isn't gonna happen, but at least a strong coalition of underprivileged minorities and, to some extent, on labor/working-class whites is how Democrats have won national elections for as long as I can remember. It's been done before many times -- I don't see why it can't be done again. There aren't going to be enough blacks and Hispanics in the country for a while to carry things without them otherwise.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:28
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Polygynous posted:Weird how all those people yelling at everyone to just "get a job" for decades all suddenly have "economic anxiety". Not the same group.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:29
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negromancer posted:Especially since black people have to deal with long term unemployment, have to deal with it for longer periods, and at higher rates. yeah, really weird how black people, who were hurt worse from the recession and gained less from the recovery, managed not to vote for trump go figure
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Nov 11, 2016 07:30
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Fojar38 posted:Right now the world is scared shitless that the US is going to turn inward and leave everyone to fend for themselves. Scared shitless or happy. I've talked to Chinese who were rooting for trump. If they knew about the dangerous path of global warming trump is marching us on, they would be scared shitless however. http://www.wingia.com/en/services/about_the_end_of_year_survey/global_results/7/33/ 2014 poll but the sentiment probably hasn't changed much.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:31
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^ Remember, they're Chinese, they know it's all a hoax.Nevvy Z posted:Not the same group. Uhhhh has someone never heard the term "welfare queens" before because that is the exact demographic who bought into that horseshit.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:31
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Suckthemonkey posted:I agree with the first statement. It's sad but true. It is, as far as I can tell, human nature. People care about themselves and their families above anything else, no matter the consequences for others. Ok let me just say this: I know we need white working class people. I'm not arguing we don't need them, I'm arguing that when it comes down to it, white people will sell minorities out and keep all the money to themselves. It's what they've - we've - always done.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:32
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Being complacent with American Imperialism and American domination over the global south is to be complacent with their brand of global white supremacy. If you agree and wanna read more click this. Peace.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:31
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I am so terribly confused as to how so many posters in this thread can look at what happened and can so completely lock on to race as to the sole, driving explanation. In a world where there is unprecedented inequality in America. Where the economy has improved dramatically, visibly, and yet benefited so few. Where labor is at its lowest levels in history. Where towns are dying all across the map. Where anti-trust legislation is few. Yes, there is only one possible explanation for any of this. Boon fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 07:34
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RaySmuckles posted:i assume you're talking about me so let me clarify some stuff for you This is the high road. Lots of progressives want to burn stuff and start fights (metaphorically). Not exactly the high road. The high road isnt easier, but it gets to the same place. I think the discussions Dems are having now are productive because lots of them involve trying to embrace a large coalition despite what appears to be fundamental differences. AmericanBarbarian fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 07:35
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Boon posted:I am so terrible confused as to how so many posters in this thread can look at what happened and can so completely lock on to race as to the sole, driving explanation. Proportionate to their share of the population, what group do you think has suffered most because of the problems you listed?
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Nov 11, 2016 07:36
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Boon posted:I am so terrible confused as to how so many posters in this thread can look at what happened and can so completely lock on to race as to the sole, driving explanation.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:35
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PKJC posted:Proportionate to their share of the population, what group do you think has suffered most because of the problems you listed? Is this like a trick question, or are you just thinking that you have some special insight? We all know that minorities in America suffer. The truth is, it doesn't matter if that other person is black, hispanic, asian, or also white. If it's a choice between that person and your family - you're going with your family every time. Will Trump deliver anything for them? Nope. But that's tangential to this behavioral reaction. Nevvy Z posted:Just because it wasn't their primary concern doesn't mean half the country didn't sign off on all the racist poo poo Trump said Yup, I got that Boon fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 07:38
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yeah I'm close to berniebro here but loving lol if you think race didn't play a gigantic factor in this election. Trump really got going once he started talking about building a wall.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:38
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RaySmuckles posted:i assume you're talking about me so let me clarify some stuff for you I'm lashing out at the people who through action or inaction helped put this disaster into motion and then leaped into these threads at the first possible chance to smug it up about how they are the true progressives because after six months they still cannot loving deal with losing the Democratic primary. At this point I'm not even sure it's because Bernie lost, just that their dude lost and they're mad, because so many of them did stupid poo poo like spite vote for Trump or run to the Libertarian candidate or simply not care about what was going to be done to real people across the country enough to do what was necessary to stop a fascist and instead decided some manufactured construct of personal purity was more important than women, undocumented and documented immigrants, Muslims, the LGBTQ community, black people, ethnic minorities in general, the disabled, the environment, the Supreme Court and all the lower courts, anyone we end up going to war with because of Trump's fragile baby man ego, and any possibility of economic relief, even token, for at least four years. They are drawing up lists of how they're going to gently caress us all and in how many ways and there is literally nothing stopping them but four elderly justices and one potential swing vote, the non-existent principles and spine of the GOP Congress, and the loud but likely soon to be nearly powerless voices of our congressional Democrats being led by an old angry jewish dude who has fought against this poo poo his entire life and actually understands what's going to happen to all those people these true progressives abandoned to make the most ill timed dumbass stand against the decidedly lesser of two evils. Nobody made anybody's life better by doing this, and you know what? While you're entirely right about what's needed going forward I am really loving angry about the lives and all the progress we're about to lose along the way, and how even now all these stupid shitheads can seem to say is 'but Hillary Clinton BAD' and demand everyone beg forgiveness for her existence. gently caress Bernouts and all of their sanctimonious hypocritical poo poo, is what I'm saying.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:38
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Lightning Knight posted:Ok let me just say this: I know we need white working class people. Ah, well in that case -- absolutely, I'd expect nothing less. I'd imagine that to be a consequence of any community in a position of power over another when confronted with the opportunity of either share it or keep it to themselves. My hope is that the Democratic party of today is sufficiently inclusive and non-whites are empowered enough to where any future president wouldn't let that happen easily. But it's a very valid concern.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:38
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Lightning Knight posted:Now you're saying we have to adjust our messaging away from minority rights too. Focus all in on class warfare, bury what few mentions of BLM or LGBT rights we had to cater to the feelings of white people. And you really have to ask why we're concerned white people wont show solidarity with minorities? where on earth are you getting this from me? we need BOTH. together. and you DO need to cater to the feelings of ~white people~ because you just LOST an election by not doing so. i can see your points about the fragility of solidarity, but that's where strong leadership comes in. by keeping these things together and sold together. whatever you personally think, hillary turned out to be a horrible leader. regardless of her success relative to TRUMP of all people, she lost millions of formerly democratic voters. calling them "stupid" isn't right or beneficial. those people were desperate to see structural change that democrats refused to offer and trump lied about providing. i get that people are upset and emotions are running high, but this loss should be making us learn. we need to learn how to package these two concepts together and make them successful. its 2016 and plurality has come a long way (not far enough, granted, but further than even 10 years ago). the electorate was willing to come together under Obama and he didn't even have plurality or social justice as major planks of his 2008 campaign. how can we as a party make sure both minorities and structurally hosed over whites BOTH get benefits they so desperately need?
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Nov 11, 2016 07:38
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Boon posted:I am so terribly confused as to how so many posters in this thread can look at what happened and can so completely lock on to race as to the sole, driving explanation. It is unfortunate these people are too stupid to realise Trump can't fix the problem, yes. He won't bring jobs back and he'll drive up the cost of living, but oh well, at least he tells it like it is.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:38
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Boon posted:I am so terribly confused as to how so many posters in this thread can look at what happened and can so completely lock on to race as to the sole, driving explanation. I mean even at our most charitable all of Donald Trump's supporters aren't racist but they also don't care enough about racism to be against it and white liberals didn't care enough about it to vote against it either. So our most charitable read is that FYGMism condemned millions of minorities to years of hell because stupid people wanted unicorn economics that doesn't exist
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Nov 11, 2016 07:39
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Rated PG-34 posted:Scared shitless or happy. I've talked to Chinese who were rooting for trump. If they knew about the dangerous path of global warming trump is marching us on, they would be scared shitless however. Well yes, the people who have been being fed authoritarian propaganda their entire lives would doubtlessly be pleased but that wasn't who I was talking about.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:39
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Lightning Knight posted:So our most charitable read is that FYGMism condemned millions of minorities to years of hell because stupid people wanted unicorn economics that doesn't exist Yup this is basically it. Also, Milwaukee failed to turn out a huge chunk of voters, largely black. I had a real heated conversation on election night with a black acquaintance from Milwaukee whom I'd posted about before as he'd long advocated publicly that black people not vote to support Hillary. Dude is a pretty liberal guy. Also, half of the arguments in this thread are stemming from posters seeing quote:Racism isn't the fundamental cause for Trump's win and reading quote:Racism did not play a role in Trump's win Those are not the same goddamn thing. Boon fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 07:43
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Boon posted:Is this like a trick question, or are you just thinking that you have some special insight? We all know that minorities in America suffer. The truth is, it doesn't matter if that other person is black, hispanic, asian, or also white. If it's a choice between that person and your family - you're going with your family every time. It's not a trick question but since the answer is definitively not white people, declaring it was mostly economic rather than mostly race is a pretty stupid position. Numbers shifted but Hillary still won voters below the poverty line. Hmm, wonder why all of those poor people managed to not sell out minorities for the sake of their survival while this other group of poor people was totally on board with condemning them to harassment, violence, and death because the human tangerine promised to bring back jobs that anyone who made even a rudimentary attempt to educate themselves would realize is bullshit that will never happen. Hmmm, what factor could cause people suffering economically to vote for Hillary, but then this other group of people, also suffering economically, but inherently to a lesser degree because of... something... can you fill in the blank here or do I need to spell that out for you too?
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Nov 11, 2016 07:46
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Odobenidae posted:Being complacent with American Imperialism and American domination over the global south is to be complacent with their brand of global white supremacy. If you agree and wanna read more click this. Peace. Thanks for this link. I've seen this dumb argument trumpeted up, and this is a good nuanced rebuttal.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:46
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