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zen death robot posted:lol none of this can happen while the GOP controls nearly 2/3rds of all the state govts and right to work finishes off what's left of unions When every single one of those states turns into Kansas their citizens will need to find someone else to elect lol
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Nov 11, 2016 08:32
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zen death robot posted:lol none of this can happen while the GOP controls nearly 2/3rds of all the state govts and right to work finishes off what's left of unions speaking of which, ive been talking to some well-situated union-side labor attorneys (aka my colleagues) and the expectation is an amended NLRA and national right-to-work within 2 years
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Nov 11, 2016 08:32
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LastInLine posted:I do want you to know that I appreciate this thread and I believe that you earnestly want to understand why things went the way they did. Now that I know I'm more than twice your age your naivety and ignorance makes a lot more sense to me than it did before and I sincerely apologize if I came across as angry. I guess the frustrating thing from this end is that from here the answer looks so simple that I legitimately can't understand how the Democrats on the whole don't get it. It's fine man. If I couldn't handle people being upset at me I wouldn't have made the thread. And I agree with you that they need to be helped like yesterday. Do you think something like minimum income would also help them?
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Nov 11, 2016 08:32
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Homework Explainer posted:i didn't think i needed to spell out "changing overtime, benefits and pto law" as being part and parcel of a new government fiat enforced work week but here we are You and I both know that any "worker's rights" reform inevitably get monkey's pawed into a grotesque way to benefit Hell, Democrats can't even stop Right to Work (not that I believe they actually want to.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:32
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more lib unpreparedness, a bic lighter would have done the job twice as easily
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Nov 11, 2016 08:33
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Vox Nihili posted:speaking of which, ive been talking to some well-situated union-side labor attorneys (aka my colleagues) and the expectation is an amended NLRA and national right-to-work within 2 years Sounds like the time for solidarity based working class politics!!
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Nov 11, 2016 08:35
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LastInLine posted:Hell, Democrats can't even stop Right to Work (not that I believe they actually want to. While Dems have been very negligent. I do think that they do earnestly oppose right to work and are going to be very dependent on Unions moving forward.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:35
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Telling people they need to leave their homes and the associated culture and surroundings they've known their whole lives is a non-starter. You can debate whether it's true or not as much as you want because it's irrelevant; you can't tell people that. If you make policy that encourages people to leave smaller, poorer rural areas and at least consolidate in bigger richer, rural areas then that might actually help and be positive but don't frame it like that because it's tone deaf to how people feel.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:34
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Al! posted:more lib unpreparedness, a bic lighter would have done the job twice as easily
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Nov 11, 2016 08:35
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Venom Snake posted:While Dems have been very negligent. I do think that they do earnestly oppose right to work and are going to be very dependent on Unions moving forward. the culinary unions in nevada quite literally proved that this cycle. strong unions can still deliver dem victories. nevada was a strong state for trump in many ways (very low education, huge primary state for him), and he was beaten soundly there, and dems even picked up house seats
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Nov 11, 2016 08:36
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LastInLine posted:You and I both know that any "worker's rights" reform inevitably get monkey's pawed into a grotesque way to benefit Then maybe people should stop supporting democrats and the system that perpetuates this vicious cycle
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Nov 11, 2016 08:37
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Vox Nihili posted:the culinary unions in nevada quite literally proved that this cycle. strong unions can still deliver dem victories. nevada was a strong state for trump in many ways (very low education, huge primary state for him), and he was beaten soundly there, and dems even picked up house seats The dems also interestingly made massive gains in Texas of all places. Hispanics and Unions could very well give the Dems the sun belt moving forward. Deimus posted:Then maybe people should stop supporting democrats and the system that perpetuates this vicious cycle If the left doesn't rally around one banner to oppose Trumpism were not going to make it
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Nov 11, 2016 08:40
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Venom Snake posted:If the left doesn't rally around one banner to oppose Trumpism were not going to make it one lone jill rises from teh ashes
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Nov 11, 2016 08:41
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Neoliberalism is not the banner.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:43
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Vox Nihili posted:the culinary unions in nevada quite literally proved that this cycle. strong unions can still deliver dem victories. nevada was a strong state for trump in many ways (very low education, huge primary state for him), and he was beaten soundly there, and dems even picked up house seats Hmm that's interesting to me also. Deimus posted:Then maybe people should stop supporting democrats and the system that perpetuates this vicious cycle Who should people support then? I'm being serious. We can't support republicans because they run contrary to leftist interests in every way. We can't go third party because these candidates will literally never get elected . It's statistically impossible to do it, even Teddy Roosevelt couldn't do it in the Bull Moose Party. So we are at your statement that we should not support the left leaning party. Who is left? Who do we support in order to further our minority and working class interests?
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Nov 11, 2016 08:43
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Venom Snake posted:It's fine man. If I couldn't handle people being upset at me I wouldn't have made the thread. And I agree with you that they need to be helped like yesterday. Do you think something like minimum income would also help them? Do you remember when George W Bush promised everyone $300 if he was elected in 2000 and then literally gave everyone $300? That was a one-time payment and it worked. The problem with basic income is that Democrats always want to tie benefits to behavior modification and I would be worried that the temptation would be too great for them (or any future administration from either party) to tie basic income to "... as long as you quit smoking" or "... as long as you stop drinking soda" or whatever the cause du jour is. I also don't think it's anywhere near as good as giving out jobs. I genuinely believe most people (at least around me) would rather work in a factory for a decent wage than just be given free money. I'm not saying it wouldn't work as a vote buying tool, but I do think it would come off exactly that way, as buying votes and that red staters would resent being treated like whores even while they cashed the checks.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:44
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Venom Snake posted:If the left doesn't rally around one banner to oppose Trumpism were not going to make it I mean I know its really simple, but there will always be a lessee and greater evil, democrats and republicans feed off each other and they will continue to do so.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:45
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Al! posted:more lib unpreparedness, a bic lighter would have done the job twice as easily h*ck i wouldve used a blowtorch meself im jvst that dedic8'd 
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Nov 11, 2016 08:46
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zen death robot posted:Basically people in rural areas where lead mining died or agriculture is the main thing don't give a gently caress about much it seems. wonder what happened there btw when the republicans gently caress over the epa we're going to have a stupider and more violent populace because there's prob gonna be a shitload more lead in our drinking water.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:47
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LastInLine posted:Do you remember when George W Bush promised everyone $300 if he was elected in 2000 and then literally gave everyone $300? That was a one-time payment and it worked. A lot of economists think basic income is a good idea because it increases consumer spending so it's an issue you can get elites to support. It's not a perfect solution as you said though. You still need to give people something to do.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:48
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Princess Di posted:Hmm that's interesting to me also. Forget liberal democracy, all it does is poo poo itself. Support PSL or other socialist groups.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:49
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zen death robot posted:Guess what lead mining ain't coming back either. No one wants that poo poo anymore. give it time mate, remember we could have trump for the next 8 years
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Nov 11, 2016 08:48
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Deimus posted:I mean I know its really simple, but there will always be a lessee and greater evil, democrats and republicans feed off each other and they will continue to do so. it takes a brave man to say such things, but i salute you
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Nov 11, 2016 08:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You all realize that working class people are being pushed out into the suburbs while urban zones are being gentrified, right? No one is talking about this
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Nov 11, 2016 08:52
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If the DNC makes a serious commitment to the left, I am saying it now I will try to find a way to help out in local elections. I live in Texas, which isn't ideal, but I do live in Denton Texas, a city that successfully voted to ban fracking before the state government poo poo all over them. There is a tiny, tiny, tiny flame of resistance to the conservative mindset here, and I think it could be bigger. I don't think I'm anywhere near qualified for anything serious, since I'm 28 and still don't even have a goddamn bachelor's degree. But gently caress......this loss hurts. Something has to be done, and it's got to be done soon. If I have to make an rear end out of myself to maybe inspire someone else, I'll do it.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:51
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Venom Snake posted:A lot of economists think basic income is a good idea because it increases consumer spending so it's an issue you can get elites to support. It's not a perfect solution as you said though. You still need to give people something to do. I do think basic income would probably work but it's something so far removed from the possible that you might as well be talking about building Chuck E. Cheeses on Mars. There would have to be billionaires hanging from lampposts before the ruling class would ever allow such a thing to be seriously considered. That said if you have a path to start stringing up billionaires, I say go for it.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:53
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Doorknob Slobber posted:Offering people in dying towns retraining and subsidies for housing in more urban areas seems like a great idea to me. Its a lot different than forcing them to leave and getting people into urban centers should be a big focus for anyone concerned about reducing consumption and climate change. Although I don't agree with any notion that we should let them die. Just encourage people to let them die. HOLY loving poo poo STOP. You don't understand. You think it is easy to just pack up and leave and go where the grass is greener because that is probably what you did and it was easy for you. But you are not them. You do not know their situation. Their whole life is/was in that lovely dying town. Their whole community. Their friends are there, their neighbors are there, their community is there, their churches/places of worship are there. They have spent decades being a part of this city. I am sure a not insignificant sum of them are living in houses that have been in their families for generations. Their schools are there, their entire history is in that town. They had their first date there, lost their virginity there, got married, started a family, raised a family there. And you would just tell them to pack up and move? To leave everything behind? It's not so easy for them. Lima Ohio is not loving Centralia Pennsylvania. You see a people clinging to the past and dying in obscurity who need to move on for their own sakes. But these people see it as abandoning their history and their way of life. Even if we were able to, by some miracle, move an entire community to a better location you assume they'll be able to integrate. To qualify and get the jobs that are available. To adapt. Maybe they would, but they might not. On paper it looks good to consolidate the spread out population into bigger cities. More people = more demand and more demand = more jobs etc etc. But it doesn't always work like that. The demand is already in these cities and no one is investing. Also, you're forgetting/neglecting the human element. You're taking the people out of the picture and you are ignoring their wants. You come swooping in thinking you know what's best for them but you've already marginalized them. You are failing to see them as people. If you come charging in as the great savior of suffering whites and forcibly relocate them they are not going to look at you favorably. They are gonna see you as some loving rear end in a top hat making them leave their homes. They'd probably loving riot. These struggling people already justifiably believe their way of life is under attack and you wanna do this? Jesus loving christ. I like the plan to plop down government run factories that make stuff in as many dying piece of poo poo towns as we can idea better. If the jobs are there people from surrounding areas might actually self consolidate for their own benefit rather than being forced by us and resenting it. And if we go full on FDR and lock/fix housing prices so they don't start getting ridiculously expensive once the area gets prosperous and there's a high demand to be there we can make sure the people who really need to be there can still afford to. quote:Racism and avoiding the south etc. Woah drat. I am a cis bisexual disabled white woman who grew up in poverty but even I don't know what it is like to be an easily identified, and thus discrimated against and targeted, minority. But all your life you have probably been told to be careful and be wary. I have no doubts that you have experienced many situations where you have been actively discrimated against. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to see this country embolden and legitimize hatred, intolerance and fear the way it has this election. I imagine you feel quite rejected and unwanted. But I'm making a lot of assumptions. Racism is a serious problem in this country and we need to talk about it. And we cannot ignore that our future President is a person who campaigned on racism and that we, as a country, accepted that. This is not meant to imply that all Trump supporters are racist. But it is a factual statement. Trump was endorced by racists and supported by racists and people supported him and voted for him. Again, this does not make them racists. But it is still troubling that they did not find his racism objectionable enough to vote differently. But as it has been said, most of these people are not effected by racism and they were desperate and suffering and Trump promised them salvation. They were probably largely not concerned with the consequences of their decision (the emboldening and legitimization of racism) because what was foremost in their mind was their own struggles. It is hard to consider and support the suffering of others when you yourself are suffering. I have come to realize that a person can be a "good person" and still have horrible beliefs. They don't go out of their way to commit hate crimes but they /believe/ in stereotypes and prejudices. They are influenced by rhetoric and agendas that appeal and pander to their fear and hatred. They support candidates and legislation that unfairly targets minorities. They go about their lives being good spouses, providers, parents, workers, worshippers, etc never actively hurting anyone and ignorant of the effects the policies they and their candidates push and support continue have on the underprivileged and how they continue to perpetuate a system of discrimination on an institutional level. And yes, by supporting Trump they are championing his beliefs and even if they are merely one of the proclaimed apathetic supporters that were sold on his policies and promises they are still perpetuating bigotry. But again, it's not about you it's about them. It's about their wants and their needs and while for some it was personal for many it was simply survival. Hillary told them the truth, that coal was dead and manufacturing was dying. That they'd have to change and adapt and work. Trump lied to them and told him he could bring coal back and bring manufacturing back and bring them prosperity. And it didn't matter that he is racist, and it didn't matter that he could not actually do it. They needed saved. Democrats have been promising suffering whites salvation for years and largely failed to deliver. Trump is just doing the same drat thing. And dismissing all Trump supporters as a bunch of racists and bigots is not doing you any favors. It is being elitist. You are not seeing them as people and you are not listening to their problems. Just because some of them might be racists and bigots does not mean they all are or that they are unworthy of help or sympathy. Where is all our much lauded liberal tolerance when it comes to people we disagree with? We are dehumanizing them and not bothering to even get to know them and just writing them off as a whole and isn't that what they are doing to minorities? We should be reaching out to them and helping them. Also, calling someone a racist/bigot does not stop them from being racist or bigoted. The best way to combat racism and bigotry is to integrate with them and reach out to them. Because many of them are very isolated. Once they begin personally knowing minorities as people it becomes much more difficult for them to dehumanize and dismiss them. Of course, it is not a minority's job to fix white people. But that doesn't change the fact that people who grow up in areas with greater diversity and interaction are statistically less likely to be racist/bigoted. But yeah, I can understand not wanting to muck about with people you feel don't even see you as a person and who you feel threatened and intimidated by. You have no obligation to put yourself out there. Just, try not to be as equally consumed by hate. Don't be reduced to their level. These are still people and I believe most of them can be reasoned with. But, I'm a white person and I hardly know poo poo about this. I definitely am not intending to excuse racism in this post, racism is inexcusable. I just don't like how liberals have been propping ourselves up and spitting down on people who are suffering and lashing out. Especially when liberals have our own problems with racism. We are not immune. In short, I'm a loving idealistic piece of poo poo. Jenner has issued a correction as of 09:00 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 08:53
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Vox Nihili posted:give it time mate, remember we could have trump for the next 8 years
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Nov 11, 2016 08:53
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Shinjobi posted:I don't think I'm anywhere near qualified for anything serious, since I'm 28 and still don't even have a goddamn bachelor's degree. But gently caress......this loss hurts. Something has to be done, and it's got to be done soon. If I have to make an rear end out of myself to maybe inspire someone else, I'll do it. This is one area where President Trump should be an inspiration
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Nov 11, 2016 08:53
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Deimus posted:Forget liberal democracy, all it does is poo poo itself. Support PSL or other socialist groups. lol Shinjobi posted:If the DNC makes a serious commitment to the left, I am saying it now I will try to find a way to help out in local elections. The party is fractured. It's looking like the Bernie faction is going to take control at the moment. Right now my job will be helping rebuild the VA and FL parties and rallying around progressive grass roots activism. Never think your not qualified. gently caress if I'm qualified at all lol
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Nov 11, 2016 08:54
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LastInLine posted:I do think basic income would probably work but it's something so far removed from the possible that you might as well be talking about building Chuck E. Cheeses on Mars. There would have to be billionaires hanging from lampposts before the ruling class would ever allow such a thing to be seriously considered. Like I said economists like the idea. The big problem is funding. Really to be quite honest even taxing all the shitzillion dollars thats flowing out of the finance and tech sector a tiny bit would be enough to pay everyone 30k a year. You just gotta get political control back over the House and Senate. Social issues are also a great wedge because many big companies are forced to support the Dems by default because Trumpism is way to racist and sexist to be good for their brands. It sounds really scummy but If progressives take full control your going to have corporations at your beck and call simply because Trump is probably going to self destruct the economy lol.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:58
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Harlock posted:I really feel even if Democrats/the left/whoever fails in opposition he will be primaried by his own 'party' lol well my response to that: -Democrats: in disarray, will probably revert to old habits, still in grasp of clinton coterie by any reasonable measure even if shes done and gone forever. still probably most likely option of the three -the left: i want to believe but there are like 5 of us, it will take more than 4 years to ramp up into something that could challenge the dems assuming that movement happens outside the party -primaried by own party: if trump gets GOP laws passed and doesnt completely poo poo the bed theyll be happy enough to stick with him. and frankly, i expect him to mostly stay out of the way and let them do what they want other than in the like 3 arenas he expresses even the slightest interest if the economy doesnt collapse in the next four years (dodd-frank will be gone, so it will collapse eventually, but it could take some time!) then we could easily have 8 years of trump. we've already fatally underestimated him repeatedly at this point
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Nov 11, 2016 09:00
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Atrocious Joe posted:This is one area where President Trump should be an inspiration Hahahahaha, that's about as silver a lining as you can get, true
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Nov 11, 2016 09:02
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Shinjobi posted:Hahahahaha, that's about as silver a lining as you can get, true He has made everyone in D.C. poo poo their pants in terror. People who I thought would never get their head out of the sand are begging progressives for salvation.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:03
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Venom Snake posted:lol Dude you're a 20 year old Dem apparatchik who got his position thanks to familial connections right? Your heart's in the right place but uhhhh like drat. Take your skills and work for a union if you want change. Unite Here has a decent presence around DC if you're impressed with what their Culinary Union local did in Nevada.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:04
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Cyron posted:also that video of 5 black kids beating up a old white guy who voted for trump. 😰
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Nov 11, 2016 09:04
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Jenner posted:In short, I'm a loving idealistic piece of poo poo. A wonderful post.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:05
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ill win
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Nov 11, 2016 09:06
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anime was right posted:ill win lets start an anime party
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Nov 11, 2016 09:10
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Continue complaining about those darn republicans in congress, it's working real well.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:11
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