jaete posted:

My original point was that if you say "communism" and in fact mean "Sweden", then you're dumb and don't know what words mean. That point stands

I think the ideal solution to the problem is actually pretty close to Sweden, can you just please not call it "literally Stalin" tia

(Of course if you're actually advocating for literally Stalin then, well, I strongly disagree)

furiouskoala posted:

What's racist about it? The only good it'll do is giving some people their moral jollies. Refugees aren't going to help the economy. I don't care what race or color they are, we don't need to take on any refugees right now.

Judakel posted:

There is a way to know and I just explained it. No, they haven't held completely different position over the past 28 years. Even 36 years.

furiouskoala posted:

What's racist about it? The only good it'll do is giving some people their moral jollies. Refugees aren't going to help the economy. I don't care what race or color they are, we don't need to take on any refugees right now.

jBrereton posted:

"You see although the democrats and republicans have been playing chess, and the dems just lost, the democrats used their pieces more like checkers pieces so they would have won if they were playing that instead."

Very good.

Lightning Knight posted:

Ah, I bask in the sociopathy. We were going to take less than a hundred thousand refugees, do you have any concept of how little money that would cost in the grand scheme of the American budget? Poor Americans weren't getting denied help because we wanted to save people from war - wars that we caused - they're not getting help because rich people are pricks.

Bad Decision Dino posted:

No, my answer is still communism. Eventually all jobs will be replaced by robots, and the only solution is that we all own the robots. Sweden only came up because people claimed that sharing the wealth created by the means of production will inevitably lead to a horrible USSR-murder state, and I disagreed.

furiouskoala posted:

It doesn't matter what the reality is when it comes to voters, it's the perception of it.

furiouskoala posted:

It doesn't matter what the reality is when it comes to voters, it's the perception of it.

Lightning Knight posted:

Oh good so you admit that in reality Syrian refugees aren't a problem and yet you still voted against them. So you're an rear end in a top hat.

Literally "I don't care that they're running from a war we're responsible for, America first."

I hope California secedes, gently caress America.

Inferior Third Season posted:

lol. Take a look at the Senate seats that are up for election in 2018. Democrats will be lucky if they only lose two or three.

And good luck getting Democrats to turn out in a mid-term when they couldn't be loving bothered showing up to keep loving Donald Trump from becoming president.

jaete posted:

My original point was that if you say "communism" and in fact mean "Sweden", then you're dumb and don't know what words mean. That point stands

I think the ideal solution to the problem is actually pretty close to Sweden, can you just please not call it "literally Stalin" tia

(Of course if you're actually advocating for literally Stalin then, well, I strongly disagree)

HorseLord posted:

California, where eugenics is from.

PKJC posted:

I have people in my own life for whom Pence is a nightmare, I'm not co-opting the problems of any posters. Also cool how people who want to keep shouting down this issue and other people who bring up minority grievances the last two days assume that we somehow are uniquely uneducated in regards to electoral strategy, or why we lost, or what the weaknesses of hillary as a candidate were, or any of the other things that we already knew because we paid attention to the election too. but no we need to stop talking about any minority issues right now and only talk about 2018 and how awful Hillary's campaign was and how she's such a narcissist (haha yeah look at who actually got elected). Maybe if the people who think it's so important to harp on voter strategy and tell anyone concerned about the harassment and violence that's already started ramping up 70 days before inauguration how we really should listen more to the people who want us dead, they should go start their own loving thread that's just about strategy and how to win the midterms, and maybe if they want they can make another one to just dump on hillary.

Go, do it, have fun, I already understand political expedience as well as how willing fake progressives are to sell out parts of the coalition that's supposedly so important to them.

Judakel posted:

You understood nothing of what I said. I was as clear as one can be, and you still missed it.

HorseLord posted:

California, where eugenics is from.

Lightning Knight posted:

California, the sixth largest economy is from.

The resulting war would obliterate this country, I don't see why you're not salivating at the prospect, tankie.

Dazzling Addar posted:

friend. friend, please. calm down. you are not talking about minority issues, you are losing your mind swinging at phantoms. i am keenly aware of how unpalatable and ultimately useless it is to try and form a coalition with the aggressively intolerant, but you are using this reality as a shield to deflect much-deserved criticism of both hillary and how the modern democratic party operates in general. white supremacy and bigotry played an enormous role in this election. anybody who tries to deny that is a fool. however, that is not something that we can change. browbeating the stay-at-homes for passing a death sentence might make you feel better, but it will not advance The Cause any more than clinging to a spineless centrist as the great queer savior will. hillary clinton is not your friend. she is not your ally. she would dump us all in a flat second if it were politically expedient. we're simply fortunate that lipservice to queer rights and protections is currently fashionable - though i don't know for how much longer.

if you care - really, truly care - about minority issues, then you cannot in good conscience hang your hopes on the dnc establishment. when they are not actively malicious, they're basically useless. they have done nothing to address the systemic issues that plague the country, favoring transient panaceas like wishy-washy acceptance of gay marriage for well-off white people. small comfort that is now that pence has the keys to the kingdom. they failed at the one thing we could reasonably expect them to do, and it is high time to admit to ourselves their utter inadequacy and look for alternatives that will not meekly pledge to work with fascists and bigots as long as they play nice. hillary was not a bad candidate because she was too charitable to minorities. she was a bad candidate because liberals categorically cannot deliver on the social change she pretends to rally behind, and people are starting to catch on and stay home. also emojis. but mostly that. a hillary victory is merely a postponement of an eventual sentence, because she and her ilk will never go the distance and put in place the protections and reforms necessary to truly keep minorities safe - which, i might add, coincides a great deal with halting the erosion of economic safety nets and aiming for increased stability for low income families in red states.

spotlessd posted:

Even Sweden isn't Sweden anymore. I mean even ignoring that fact that Sweden's particular golden age and the basis for its prosperity was directly bankrolled by Nazis and the devastation of a major world war, their particular socioeconomic arrangement--like many other presumed Scandinavian Edens--has been subject to the same neoliberal contractions as every other capitalist economy.

Look I get that its not any fun to have the Marxist drive by and rain on everyone's parade but even if you don't think the answer is communism or anything like it I can't imagine how any serious look at political economy anywhere can proceed if no one acknowledges the fact that there actually is a crisis (and furthermore that the crisis has thus far been immune to all the usual sorts of intervention). If you want to make the case that this particular crisis thwarts a traditional Marxist analysis, I think you're insane but that's at least a point that starts in reality.

Any plan for a future economic platform that isn't a big fat loving fairy tale has to start by coming to grips with the fact that 20% of the world's productive capacity is more than enough to provide for the abundance of goods for everyone. Just finding novel ways to expand the wage system doesn't even theoretically begin to address this absurdity.

steinrokkan posted:

Uh, yeah, but your perception is flawed, and you apparently are aware of it? In that case it's not a valid defense for your stance.

Dazzling Addar posted:

PKJC posted:

Stop defending fake progressives. Also cool how you felt the need to emphasize "if I really, truly care". You do not know me, don't pretend you have any insight into my life.

Non Serviam posted:

You're right. Your failed ideology will solve the world when robots take over.

Non Serviam posted:

You're right. Marxism killed 100 million people in less than a century

Non Serviam posted:

You're right. Your failed ideology will solve the world when robots take over.

Bad Decision Dino posted:

You have failed to answer the single essential question I have asked you several times now. Automation has rendered the working class of this country unable to earn a living wage. As technology progresses, more fields will continue to be made obsolete until we reach a point were the majority of people are unable to contribute to society, because a robot can do their job cheaper and better.
What, as a society, is our obligation to those who are unable to contribute? I believe the only system that is equipped to deal with this situation is communism: we all own the means of production. If you disagree, please tell me how we can organize society so that we will not simply have to let those unable to contribute starve.

PKJC posted:

People willing to sit at home when faced with someone whose opening gambit was "mexicans are rapists" don't really care much about progress imo

HorseLord posted:

Let's check the source which originated this amazing claim, the "black book of communism":



Well we know one day in New Mexico State Penitentiary 33 people died out of 1136, and there's 2220300 people in american prison, so that must mean 64482 people are dying every day, and america is over 87765 days old, which means no less than 5659,262,730 people have died in george washington's gulags so far. Seems legit.

PKJC posted:

Stop defending fake progressives. Also cool how you felt the need to emphasize "if I really, truly care". You do not know me, don't pretend you have any insight into my life.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I agree with your diagnosis but "install communism, problem solved" is too simple an answer. We will need universal health care and a guaranteed minimum income. Past that it's hard to say.

steinrokkan posted:

Clinton convinced millions of people not to vote for Trump, but didn't convince any of those to vote for her. That speaks as much about the incompetence of the Democrats as about the apathy and moral laxness of the electorate. Except only the former can be really changed.

steinrokkan posted:

You are right, Juche is the light, now go suck Stalin's syphilitic cock.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I agree with your diagnosis but "install communism, problem solved" is too simple an answer. We will need universal health care and a guaranteed minimum income. Past that it's hard to say.

PKJC posted:

Emphasis mine, your personal dislike of her as a candidate isn't evidence for that statement. I wanted someone else too but I'm not enough of an idiot to say no one wanted to vote for hillary on her merits and her record and she's the worst democrat to ever run.

Dazzling Addar posted:

buddy boy if you think that i am defending fake progressives after that exhausting screed against the inadequacy of democrat politicians to actually do jack and or poo poo to protect the disenfranchised i do not even know what to tell you. all of the folks sticking their thumbs up their butts and screaming "stdh.txt!!!" at instances of hate crimes and harassment can go have a pow-wow at the bottom of a gorge for all i care, but there is legitimate criticism of your beloved abuela that you refuse to entertain for reasons that at this point i simply don't know. wake up. the blue dogs have been failing us long before this election.

HorseLord posted:

Some guy: Communism killed one hundred million people

Me: here is the name of the book which first made that claim, and an excerpt where the author admits that he did "no extensive investigation" and reveals that he assigned an entire country a death toll by multiplying the number 5 repeatedly until the answer was suitably big.

Me: If you do the same to the USA it becomes clear how dishonest and bad this calculation is

Steinrokken: checking sources is for people who suck dicks.

PKJC posted:

Beloved abuela? gently caress off. I want the Bernie/Warren wing in charge at a bare minimum. Even in a red state I had the loving sense and common decency to say no to fascism. You're welcome to argue blue dogs aren't progressive but I wasn't saying they are, I'm saying someone faced with a open bigot and avowed rapist who does not enthusiastically vote to shut that ideology down doesn't really give a drat about progress.