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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Are you actually reading any of these articles you're linking? At no point does this say that he was going to sell the Brazilian government NSA data in exchange for asylum. It's referencing their outrage after it was already published that the NSA has spied on the Brazilian government. Maybe he was offering to work for their intelligence agencies or in some other capacity. As previously established, he didn't keep a copy of the material he stole and wouldn't have had it to give them. He literally offered them details about NSA surveillance operations and techniques. Go read his letter, it's all in there.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:24
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paranoid randroid posted:hahahaha. spare me you Asatru-cosplaying simian. through the power of Lysenkoist Meditation i have trained myself to operate at 100% metabolic efficiency, and no longer have need of booj-wah affectations like latrines and ostentatious starvation. oh, well, excuuuuuuse me for having never been born to begin with you ridiculous exuse for a being. i'm just a collection of possibilities without even the unecessary gilded extravagance of certainty and i certainly don't need your idiot luxury of having been created through biological processes to coddle me here in the howling void of nothingness. god i can't even show you how blinded by your own privilige you are, the fact that you even have eyes and a cognition to process your own massive, ponderous unnecessity you fat rear end in a top hat. "oooh look at me i need oxygen in my metabolic pathways to sustain my form" get hosed nerdlinger
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Nov 12, 2016 00:25
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Casimir Radon posted:So while we're at it anybody want to white knight Assange? I think everyone can agree that he is a colossal shithead and even Reddit shat all over wikileaks in their most recent AMA there. This should tell you something.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:27
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Casimir Radon posted:So while we're at it anybody want to white knight Assange? It is really mean to keep him in that embassy where he only gets visited by the likes of has-been Pamela Anderson.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:26
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steinrokkan posted:Elected a dangerous fascist with legions of mobilized fanatical followers? drat man youre like that monk from Name of the Rose who thought that humor was immoral because Jesus never laughed
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Nov 12, 2016 00:27
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Nevvy Z posted:Share my nightmare. Day 1- Republicans impeach trump. Pence is president. You don't think Fat Skeletor can get poo poo done? Within 3 months he'd have a skull-faced mountain fortress built and move his
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Nov 12, 2016 00:27
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Fitzy Fitz posted:It is really mean to keep him in that embassy where he only gets visited by the likes of has-been Pamela Anderson. On the other hand, Assange is possibly a rapist and definitely sent nude pics of himself to a child, so his current treatment isn't so bad
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Nov 12, 2016 00:29
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paranoid randroid posted:drat man youre like that monk from Name of the Rose who thought that humor was immoral because Jesus never laughed That man was right. Show a stiff upper lip or die.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:29
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paranoid randroid posted:im not saying that theyre any of those things, im saying theyre incredibly glib about the realities facing the left in this country, and disturbingly willing to cadge onto very ugly frameworks if it furthers their ability to be sanctimonious. it makes me extremely skeptical about the viability of a labor-left coalition if the thought drivers of that movement are more interested in getting to run a victory lap around their imagined enemies than in actually, yknow, coalescing. i dunno, "Won't Somebody Think of White Centrist Liberals???????" doesn't really seem to me in any way worthwhile to complain about. toleration of white working class racism is a very real danger with the chapo left but a party run by wealthy white liberal elites just got loving destroyed, so warning about the danger of moving away from them seems  as for flippancy and infighting, it's 3 days after the election. people have been pretty conciliatory and humbled in circular firing squad terms compared to what I had expected if Clinton lost. give it some time icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 00:29
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QuarkJets posted:They do both of those things. The first two showed that the Russian and Chinese governments definitely had a lot more of the Snowden documents than Snowden claimed, and my previous post showed that Snowden stole documents unrelated to the NSA surveillance program, including documents relating to operations being conducted by other countries. No they do not. The first two report that Russia and China might have had access to some of the information of the unconstitutional US wiretapping program, but don't support the claim that he sold it. The last article claims that Snowden proposed to share information with Brazil about the way the US wiretapping program impacted Brazil in exchange for asylum -- he didn't, and that info ended up being released anyway. None of this amounts to selling unrelated information for personal gain. Your last claim is one that nobody has ever challenged -- he wanted to blow the whistle on the illegal US wiretapping, of course he downloaded everything that might have been relevant and let journos sort through it. That unrelated information came with that is neither surprising nor discrediting. That does not say what you claim it says. QuarkJets posted:Snowden posted an open letter to Brazil offering US secrets in exchange for permanent asylum Did you even read that? He explicitly offers assistance in Brazil's own investigations as far as it's appropriate and legal, in a situation where the information you're talking about was in the process of being released through Greenwald and Poitras anyway. At no point is there the offer of additional, irrelevant information in exchange for asylum. edit: Just to make the timeline clear, Snowden's open latter to Brazil was published half a year after Greenwald and Poitras released the info on the US's spy program in Brazil. The information was already in Brazil's hands. It's ludicrous to claim that this was an attempt to bargain that information for asylum. botany fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 00:28
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Mantis42 posted:I mean Trump actually knows UHC is good policy. He's stated as much several times. I hate to say it, but if there was a Democratic Congress he'd probably work with them a lot better than basically any other Republican president. That sounds like the stupidest chaos timeline. Donnie wins, but somehow the Senate and Congress flip blue. gently caress, let's make it more stupid and say the state goves also flip heavy blue.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:28
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I do honestly like Trump more than Pence. I worry about Trump as president because he doesn't care about LGBT minorities and will do nothing to stop legislature targeting them. Pence would actively be trying to create legislature to oppress them.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:30
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QuarkJets posted:He literally offered them details about NSA surveillance operations and techniques. Go read his letter, it's all in there. I read the letter. If you're referring to the following paragraph: quote:Many Brazilian senators agree, and have asked for my assistance with their investigations of suspected crimes against Brazilian citizens. I have expressed my willingness to assist wherever appropriate and lawful, but unfortunately the United States government has worked very hard to limit my ability to do so -- going so far as to force down the Presidential Plane of Evo Morales to prevent me from travelling to Latin America! Until a country grants permanent political asylum, the US government will continue to interfere with my ability to speak. That's not the same thing as selling them data, which he didn't have to give them. Are you just trying to make a point that he helped the Brazilians/Russians/Chinese because he revealed the general extent of the NSA's spying program? I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore and you keep shifting targets.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:31
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icantfindaname posted:i dunno, "Won't Somebody Think of White Centrist Liberals???????" doesn't really seem to me in any way worthwhile to complain about. toleration of white working class racism is a very real danger with the chapo left but a party run by wealthy white liberal elites just got loving destroyed, so warning about the danger of moving away from them seems im not talking about the centrist white liberals, im talking about the minority constituencies that get erased when you boil things down to "only lovely effete establishment people from Beverly Hills vote for Clinton"
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Nov 12, 2016 00:32
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botany posted:Your last claim is one that nobody has ever challenged -- he wanted to blow the whistle on the illegal US wiretapping, of course he downloaded everything that might have been relevant and let journos sort through it. That unrelated information came with that is neither surprising nor discrediting. I quoted someone for you who was challenging that, which was the origin of this tangent.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:31
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The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea of Ellison heading the DNC. He's a perfect bridge between the economic populist Bernie wing and the "identity politics" wing of the party. Bernie's biggest issue was that he couldn't connect with non-white voters and was tonedeaf at pitching his arguments towards that audience. I hope Schumer's endorsement means that he's going to get the job.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:33
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botany posted:Did you even read that? He explicitly offers assistance in Brazil's own investigations as far as it's appropriate and legal, in a situation where the information you're talking about was in the process of being released through Greenwald and Poitras anyway. At no point is there the offer of additional, irrelevant information in exchange for asylum. I never said that he offered Brazil additional, irrelevant information. Whether or not he gave journalists similar information is irrelevant to whether he was offering secrets to Brazil in exchange for asylum
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Nov 12, 2016 00:34
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Agnosticnixie posted:Like let's be honest here, most of the poor probably didn't vote, period. Completely by their own choice and not due to the extensive suppression efforts that have ramped up ever since the VRA was gutted. Please pay no attention to what happened in states like WI and NC and just blame those dirty poors for apathy.  Nevvy Z posted:Share my nightmare. Day 1- Republicans impeach trump. Pence is president. I don't think there's a lot of things that would spark waves of violence in the US but the GOP ousting Trump in a political coup is probably one of them.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:35
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RaySmuckles posted:this doesn't tell nearly all the story. Yup, blame the poor for not stepping up. Sure, a majority voted for Hillary, but it wasn't enough! They have to do more work for white collar technocrats with a twenty year history of deregulation, freezing wages, and gutting their security net! Vote, drat you scum!
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Nov 12, 2016 00:34
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paranoid randroid posted:im not talking about the centrist white liberals, im talking about the minority constituencies that get erased when you boil things down to "only lovely effete establishment people from Beverly Hills vote for Clinton" I think it's entirely possible to harshly criticize white centrist libs while also affording due respect to minority opinions. I think Chapo and Jacobin probably don't in practice, but criticizing white centrist liberals isn't per se incompatible with respecting minority coalition partners. That's a pretty lovely comment on that Chapo guest guy's part, but that's not really what people like Kilpatrick are doing
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Nov 12, 2016 00:36
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Trump: Governor Gilmore, I wanted to reach out to you to see if you would help out with the new, better Trump administration to Make America Great Again. Gilmore: Hell that's what I'm here for. You're young, successful. You're elected! You want car with no car tax, right? You kids like tax cuts, right? Huh? Da da daa. Cha cha chaaa. Wait, wait, wait! Don't go! No. Not today. Not to Gil! I could taste that Department of Transportation post.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:37
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QuarkJets posted:I never said that he offered Brazil additional, irrelevant information. Whether or not he gave journalists similar information is irrelevant to whether he was offering secrets to Brazil in exchange for asylum Just gonna quote my edit because you probably missed it: quote:edit: Just to make the timeline clear, Snowden's open latter to Brazil was published half a year after Greenwald and Poitras released the info on the US's spy program in Brazil. The information was already in Brazil's hands. It's ludicrous to claim that this was an attempt to bargain that information for asylum.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:37
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Evil Fluffy posted:Completely by their own choice and not due to the extensive suppression efforts that have ramped up ever since the VRA was gutted. Please pay no attention to what happened in states like WI and NC and just blame those dirty poors for apathy. The theft of a SCOTUS seat should've sparked waves of violence.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:37
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Ellison is a really cool guy, a staunch progressive, and hella qualified. That's good enough in my book. Dean wasn't bad, but he's been out of the loop for a damned decade and is too tied to the banking wing that just got curbstomped 3-4x, depending on how you want to read the last several elections. That Keith's a minority muslim to tweak il Douche is just bonus points. Like a Mario coin room of bonus points.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:37
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Why would the GOP even want to oust Trump right now? He's gonna let them pass whatever legislature they want.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:39
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:That's not the same thing as selling them data, which he didn't have to give them. Are you just trying to make a point that he helped the Brazilians/Russians/Chinese because he revealed the general extent of the NSA's spying program? I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore and you keep shifting targets. I've said this several times: my point was that Snowden didn't just reveal the general extent of the NSA's spying program. He stole a lot more than that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 12, 2016 00:39
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Internet Kraken posted:Why would the GOP even want to oust Trump right now? He's gonna let them pass whatever legislature they want. Pence is a true believer and is less volatile. Plus the whole "fraud trial" still ongoing. Not saying it'll happen, but I wouldn't put it past them to let Donnie win them the brass ring and then shank him.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:39
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Mister Macys posted:Yup, blame the poor for not stepping up. Sure, a majority voted for Hillary, but it wasn't enough! They have to do more work for white collar technocrats with a twenty year history of deregulation, freezing wages, and gutting their security net! Vote, drat you scum! whoo buddy, that is not my thesis. based on what you posted i'm totally with you. in fact, i've been going on and on about it in this thread against all the hillary supporters for like 2 days straight. the democrats failed to reach out to an important segment of the population. its the democrats fault, 100%. are we cool?
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Nov 12, 2016 00:40
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QuarkJets posted:I've said this several times: my point was that Snowden didn't just reveal the general extent of the NSA's spying program. He stole a lot more than that. Your point keeps moving around, because earlier it was that he sold information to China and Russia.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:41
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icantfindaname posted:I think it's entirely possible to harshly criticize white centrist libs while also affording due respect to minority opinions. I think Chapo and Jacobin probably don't in practice, but criticizing white centrist liberals isn't per se incompatible with respecting minority coalition partners. That's a pretty lovely comment on that Chapo guest guy's part, but that's not really what people like Kilpatrick are doing its undoubtedly not incompatible. my complaint is that the radical left falls prey to the same impulses that they accuse the center left of. and to be honest it rankles me more when a radical does things like make sniffy dismissive statements that completely ignore the existence of the working class in my state, than when some lanyard at the Aspen Ideas Festival does the same for the Rust Belt working class. because we should know better than that. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 00:42
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QuarkJets posted:I've said this several times: my point was that Snowden didn't just reveal the general extent of the NSA's spying program. He stole a lot more than that. Right, then you made some stuff up about him selling it to foreign governments, which didn't happen. If you're stealing a chunk of data from a clandestine intelligence agency it's absurd to claim that he should have been extra careful and taken his time to make sure it was all directly related to spying and not reveal any of the other behavior going on at the NSA. Whether he stole 100 documents or 1,000,000 is irrelevant anyway, since he's not the one releasing them to the public. He stole them, made a hasty exit from the country, handed it all over to Greenwald and Poitras, then got stuck in Russia after the US scrambled to cancel his passport. He's been there ever since, occasionally surfacing for video interviews or whatever.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:45
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QuarkJets posted:I've said this several times: my point was that Snowden didn't just reveal the general extent of the NSA's spying program. He stole a lot more than that. Your point has been to make poo poo up every time you're called out on it. I sincerely don't think there's any point in pursuing this discussion with you.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:47
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What cabinet post will George Zimmerman have in the Trump administration?
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Nov 12, 2016 00:46
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botany posted:Just gonna quote my edit because you probably missed it: The contention was whether he was offering secrets to Brazil in exchange for asylum. That definitely happened. Whether or not journalists had that same information already isn't actually relevant, and it's further difficult to believe that Snowden would limit his offer of knowledge access to only whatever some journalists had already published
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Nov 12, 2016 00:48
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paranoid randroid posted:its undoubtedly not incompatible. my complaint is that the radical left falls prey to the same impulses that they accuse the center left of. and to be honest it rankles me more when a radical does things like make sniffy dismissive statements that completely ignore the existence of the working class in my state, than when some lanyard at the Aspen Ideas Festival does the same for the Rust Belt working class. because we should know better than that. Fair enough
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Nov 12, 2016 00:49
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mcmagic posted:What cabinet post will George Zimmerman have in the Trump administration? Minority Outreach Tzar
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Nov 12, 2016 00:48
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Internet Kraken posted:Why would the GOP even want to oust Trump right now? He's gonna let them pass whatever legislature they want. I wonder exactly how scared they are of his volatility. Do they understand that he poses a real existential threat to world peace or do they just not care?
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Nov 12, 2016 00:49
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Evil Fluffy posted:Completely by their own choice and not due to the extensive suppression efforts that have ramped up ever since the VRA was gutted. Please pay no attention to what happened in states like WI and NC and just blame those dirty poors for apathy. lol at implying I'm throwing blame. Also even in states with comparatively less suppression turnout cratered. That's not on the poor who didn't or couldn't vote, that's on the gop for suppression, sure but the dems didn't get out the vote. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 00:50
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QuarkJets posted:The contention was whether he was offering secrets to Brazil in exchange for asylum. That definitely happened. Whether or not journalists had that same information already isn't actually relevant, and it's further difficult to believe that Snowden would limit his offer of knowledge access to only whatever some journalists had already published No that did not definitely happen outside of your imagination. Also is your theory now that Snowden was sitting on additional information he didn't give to the Guardian that he was bargaining with? Info that never saw the light of day? Where is that info now? How did he transport it when we know he destroyed all harddrives after the hand-off in Beijing?
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Nov 12, 2016 00:51
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botany posted:Your point keeps moving around, because earlier it was that he sold information to China and Russia. I made my primary point abundantly clear in several posts: QuarkJets posted:My primary accusation was that Snowden didn't just steal secrets related to the NSA surveillance program. He definitely stole a lot more than that. Some goons said otherwise, but they were wrong QuarkJets posted:Even if you dismiss all of the evidence pointing to Snowden selling secrets (even though he definitely offered to sell secrets to Brazil in exchange for asylum), my point was that he stole secrets that were unrelated to the NSA surveillance program. There is a lot of evidence supporting this point, and I have provided some of it. QuarkJets posted:First of all, my accusations were two-fold. You can't claim that his only crime was revealing the NSA surveillance program: that is false. This was the idea that I was attacking, so I focused my efforts on supporting that. QuarkJets posted:The fact that it was the NY Times loving up the redaction is irrelevant. It proves my accusation that Snowden stole secrets that were unrelated to the NSA spying on US citizens. QuarkJets posted:Not at all, I had read many articles to the effect that Snowden didn't just steal a handful of surveillance documents. I didn't feel like posting any while I'm on my phone, but I was pressed to anyway, so now I have done that
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Nov 12, 2016 00:52
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