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etalian posted:Hill Folk want to avoid any explanations why the unqualified Donald crushed her. I'm not a loving Hillfolk, I just hate Russell Brand and think he's a loving moron. I'm not interested it hearing his opinion about anything. Spamming links to a bunch of guys making shame on you videos is not helpful or productive. Put it in your own goddamned words.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:48
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:It's very easy to attribute things to racism, isn't it? I bet those people won't double down on their positions at all. But there is only one other cable package available and it didn't contain the channels you wanted either. So your option was Cinemax or no TV at all. And half the population cut the cord. Next time nominate Netflix.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:47
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bump_fn posted:people voted for trump instead of hillary for many reasons but a broad one was that for a lot of people she was a well known establishment politician that they had been trained not to trust for decades and had no compelling argument that she would help them when neither side had helped them for a long time The dems don't just need a mesage, they need to actually follow though. Obama had a message of hope, change, and getting the American economy working again. At the end of his 8 years the American working class still hasn't recovered from the recession and the best they have to show for electing him is a lovely insurance plan. The_Politics_Man has issued a correction as of 02:50 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 02:47
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Well What Now posted:I honestly can't keep track of who's saying what with all the more and more outlandish things that are being bandied about ITT. people are very angry and upset about what happened so this is gonna happen and people should try to breathe deep and calm down everyone here wants the same thing, which is for progressive politics to be the loudly shouted goal of the democratic party
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Nov 12, 2016 02:49
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I'm not really sure if LBJ would be welcome in the modern dems for his hawkishness and FDR wouldn't be welcome for that + being the physical representation of ultra rich power. Ultimately we can argue all day that what they accomplished was good and we need more of it but were going to need to accept that neither of these men would be considered acceptable candidates in 2016. Not talking racism here, just simply that their mentality of intervention and winning at all costs wouldn't be accepted.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:50
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resar posted:The dems don't just need a mesage, they need to actually follow though. Obama had a message of hope, change, and getting the American economy working again. At the end of his 8 years the American working class still hasn't recovered from the recession and the best they have to show for electing him is a lovely insurance plan. GOP Obstructionism is real, and its not my friend.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:50
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bump_fn posted:people are very angry and upset about what happened so this is gonna happen and people should try to breathe deep and calm down The people who represent and fund the democratic party are doing just fine, why would they want things to fundamentally change.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:50
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Venom Snake posted:I'm not really sure if LBJ would be welcome in the modern dems for his hawkishness and FDR wouldn't be welcome for that + being the physical representation of ultra rich power. Ultimately we can argue all day that what they accomplished was good and we need more of it but were going to need to accept that neither of these men would be considered acceptable candidates in 2016. Not talking racism here, just simply that their mentality of intervention and winning at all costs wouldn't be accepted. corpse of Eugene Debs 2020
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Nov 12, 2016 02:51
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lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjLTowhVVs
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Nov 12, 2016 02:52
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resar posted:The dems don't just need a mesage, they need to actually follow though. Obama had a message of hope, change, and getting the American economy working again. At the end of his 8 years the American working class still hasn't recovered from the recession and the best they have a lovely insurance plan. Actually we do need a message. We need the message that under Trump and the Republicans everyone is going to be even worse than what we had before Obama. I don't think anyone has any illusions that Trump was telling them the truth, but he deigned to address their concerns even if those concerns have no basis in reality. Having said that, everything else you say is right. What we need is a message and a goddamned followthrough.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:51
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Well What Now posted:So why bother with anything then? Why not just hand out the Flavor Aid and get it over with if you're so damned certain? Because those desperate people want real jobs. They want to go and do real loving work. The Democratic Party can absolutely loving do that for them. A GIANT PARSNIP posted:This is a good post. We need a New Deal. We need to fight for All Americans who suffer from social and economic injustice. This means working with and helping people that many liberals think are gross and uneducated and racist and stupid. Well guess loving what. Liberals just allowed the orange idiot king to become president, so it turns out we're not the loving smartest guys in the room after all. These people were loving savaged by the capitalist class and they're in major loving pain right now. Isn't the Democratic Party here to help people in these situations? Aren't we supposed to loving help the poor in their time of need? Give them factories that build solar panels and windmills. Give them research centers and health clinics staffed by graduates from local colleges for professional positions and the local town for support roles. Give them a reason to wake the gently caress up every morning and go to work and be proud of the poo poo that they're accomplishing. Don't loving sneer at them because they're "dumb loving hicks who ruin everything". These are real loving Americans who are absolutely equals to you and I, and they have real loving grievances about being savaged by the capitalist class.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:51
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Deimus posted:The people who represent and fund the democratic party are doing just fine, why would they want things to fundamentally change. They have no power anymore.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:52
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Deimus posted:The people who represent and fund the democratic party are doing just fine, why would they want things to fundamentally change. which is why we need to make it clear that if they don't hand over the keys we will burn this fucker down with them locked inside
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Nov 12, 2016 02:52
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Venom Snake posted:This is an interesting point: I'm really behind in the thread (fifteen pages) but in case this didn't get addressed, it's not an interesting point, it's a bad point. Yes, Democrats are doing a great job winning the Bronx. No one disputes that. The problem is that the system we operate in requires that a party adequately represent less populated areas in order to govern. It just does. The more you concentrate your constituents, the more diluted your ability to create national policy becomes. So you have to pay attention to my favorite post of the last ten pages I've read (totally serious): Peel posted:holy lol This is telling you everything you need to know about this election in three lines. There's a lot to unpack but it's all worthwhile. "holy lol" - This means "This should be obvious." "decently-off suburban republicans aren't going to vote for the party of blm dude" - Racism is component of Trump support, as others have noted Dems must be the party standing up for minorities. That means instead of being mealy-mouthed, you loving clearly and emphatically support these groups. Not changing your position on gay marriage after the Supreme Court legalized it, but actually have principles and stand behind them. "we talk about getting back white working class voters not because that's trump's or the republicans' mainstay but because it's the only part of it theoretically winnable" - Democrats have to expand their base beyond the coasts + Illinois. They have to gain support in red states not necessarily to flip them (although with policy successes they could), but in order to gain control of districts within them. They can't just keep getting redder. And the way you do it is exactly how Peel says in one sentence: You work attract the demographic that fits in with your party's principles. Under the Third Way, the Democrats have openly admitted to lacking core principles. They "go with the polls" and are "data-driven". However our principles to help and defend those groups who need help and defending should tell us that the white working class is a group who needs help and defending. They were our constituents and we lost them by selling them out every chance we could since 1992 and no, Trump nor the GOP are going to help them but they are willing to tap into their anger. If you want them back you can't just talk about education, you have to actually do concrete, visible things that they can see and understand to help their communities economically. Not check in the mail, not help them move, you have to make their towns and cities vibrant and alive after having killed them.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:53
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Because those desperate people want real jobs. They want to go and do real loving work. The Democratic Party can absolutely loving do that for them. I agree, I just totally misread your post. I'm loving angry too.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:55
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Well What Now posted:I agree, I just totally misread your post. I'm really loving angry too! I also make a dozen mistakes before noon! Let's go gently caress some poo poo up!
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Nov 12, 2016 02:57
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Deimus posted:The people who represent and fund the democratic party are doing just fine, why would they want things to fundamentally change. They will lose a lot if the economy goes to poo poo. Also Clinton hosed them over. These are people who don't like being hosed over. LastInLine posted:I'm really behind in the thread (fifteen pages) but in case this didn't get addressed, it's not an interesting point, it's a bad point. Yes, Democrats are doing a great job winning the Bronx. No one disputes that. The problem is that the system we operate in requires that a party adequately represent less populated areas in order to govern. It just does. The more you concentrate your constituents, the more diluted your ability to create national policy becomes. I know. I said it was an interesting point because people are becoming increasingly pissed off that their vote doesn't loving matter. The dems won the popular vote for the House this year by 6 points and only hold 45%. At some point these people are going to stop being okay with getting reamed in the rear end by a government that hates them that they are physically unable to vote against.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:57
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A Winner is Jew posted:which is why we need to make it clear that if they don't hand over the keys we will burn this fucker down with them locked inside They're not. The next election cycle they will get funding just like last time. They will play the lesser evil card and their representatives will still be well off, why change it. They will be trying to gather a base of progressives again and whatever happens the people at the top of the DNC will still be rich. No matter what happens the system is working for them either way.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:58
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resar posted:The dems don't just need a mesage, they need to actually follow though. Obama had a message of hope, change, and getting the American economy working again. At the end of his 8 years the American working class still hasn't recovered from the recession and the best they have to show for electing him is a lovely insurance plan. That's not exactly true, but Trump did his best to make people think that. Hillary's response of "checkout Fed employment report and my website" didn't exactly help either.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:00
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Well I certainly do want to see the Democratic party embrace economic leftism and appeal to working class whites, but there's another big factor that can't be ignored Bill Clinton won Al Gore lost John Kerry lost Barack Obama won Hillary Clinton lost Democrats win when the run a charismatic, personable candidate. Democrats lose when they run a boring technocrat
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Nov 12, 2016 03:00
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radical meme posted:Not at all; I'm merely pointing out that there is a difference between progressive ideology and socialism. We don't need to be shouting for socialism, eat the rich, at every level of the government. It's looking an awful lot like Hillary lost a fair share of Obama voters because of both parties full embrace of globalism and Trump was the only one saying he was going to protect everybody's job; he's not but that's beside the point. We ask for Socialism and if we end up with a more regulated market it's still a win.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:02
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Powercrazy posted:We ask for Socialism and if we end up with a more regulated market it's still a win. this also, sup powercrazy... you were also one of those i was a massive douche to
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Nov 12, 2016 03:03
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Guy Goodbody posted:Well I certainly do want to see the Democratic party embrace economic leftism and appeal to working class whites, but there's another big factor that can't be ignored whoa you're saying we also need good politicians? holy poo poo wow
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Nov 12, 2016 03:02
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bernoman wrote thing http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/opinion/bernie-sanders-where-the-democrats-go-from-here.html key point: "In the coming days, I will also provide a series of reforms to reinvigorate the Democratic Party."
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Nov 12, 2016 03:04
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bump_fn posted:whoa you're saying we also need good politicians? holy poo poo wow No, just politicians that seem to experience the full range of human emotions
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Nov 12, 2016 03:03
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Venom Snake posted:I'm not really sure if LBJ would be welcome in the modern dems for his hawkishness and FDR wouldn't be welcome for that + being the physical representation of ultra rich power. Ultimately we can argue all day that what they accomplished was good and we need more of it but were going to need to accept that neither of these men would be considered acceptable candidates in 2016. Not talking racism here, just simply that their mentality of intervention and winning at all costs wouldn't be accepted. Honestly I think that's a symptom of the problem with the current Democratic party too. If Trump with his privileges can be perceived as the champion of the working class, where you're coming from doesn't matter as much as what you do. I think the Democrats in general have always cared far too much about optics and far too little about results. Serious question, who, in your opinion, is the last Democratic president to actually Get poo poo Done?
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Nov 12, 2016 03:03
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Oh Snapple! posted:Excuse I'm getting tired of seeing in places: "Hillary did talk economics, the media just didn't cover it!" Yeah, well, she didn't want to work in soundbytes except when to attack Trump, so it's easy to guess what the news covered. Hearing it all from a surrogate on the news channels when you don't hear it from the actual candidate is janky, rudderless messaging and sends the message that the candidate doesn't own the policy. While I'm at it, nobody gives a poo poo about going to a website just because you said you had one* and gently caress all those assholes who kept saying "just look at her website" -- no, you're selling someone on the idea of clinton, give them enough info about her poo poo that they'll want to look it up on their own. I mean, seriously, when was the last time anyone seen that policy ad of Clinton's where the announcer touted it as the most liberal platform of all time? *wasn't it Carcetti who kept dropping his url so often it was like his hands were greased?
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Nov 12, 2016 03:04
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anime was right posted:bernoman wrote thing bernie ... good?
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Nov 12, 2016 03:04
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Wow our politics are diseased
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Nov 12, 2016 03:07
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LastInLine posted:Serious question, who, in your opinion, is the last Democratic president to actually Get poo poo Done? LBJ vietnam was a poo poo show and it's important to remember that when mentioning him, but domestically i would put him up against either roosevelt any day A Winner is Jew has issued a correction as of 03:11 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 03:06
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Venom Snake posted:I'm not really sure if LBJ would be welcome in the modern dems for his hawkishness and FDR wouldn't be welcome for that + being the physical representation of ultra rich power. Ultimately we can argue all day that what they accomplished was good and we need more of it but were going to need to accept that neither of these men would be considered acceptable candidates in 2016. Not talking racism here, just simply that their mentality of intervention and winning at all costs wouldn't be accepted. And maybe that's the problem with the Democratic Party. Donald J. Trump just gave the Republicans all three branches of government.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:06
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Venom Snake posted:They will lose a lot if the economy goes to poo poo. Also Clinton hosed them over. These are people who don't like being hosed over. Powercrazy posted:We ask for Socialism and if we end up with a more regulated market it's still a win. I think these two posts are interesting together because I want to say that there's no contradiction between progressive, leftist policy and not being anti-business. A lot of progressive policy is good for companies and investors if they can get their heads out of their asses and look at the long term. Universal healthcare means your workers spend less time roughing it and more time working as healthy, productive workers than miserable fucksticks! Working conditions that don't suck poo poo mean you have healthy productive workers who spend a longer time working rather than guys who keel over at 50 from black lung! Stable economic policy rather than 'lol let the markets decide' means you're less likely to run face-first into a recession when you're unprepared and lose everything! Environmentalism is a job opportunity-and it's kind of hard to spend your money when your financial centers are literally underwater due to rising sea levels. Etc. I don't think it's impossible to sell the majority of the democratic establishment on non-incrementalist progressive platforms. And you don't need to convince all of them, just convince enough that the rest quietly get out of your way and don't work against you.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:13
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anime was right posted:bernoman wrote thing  "HIllary sent us to a hell but we are going even deeper. Take back everything that we have lost."
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Nov 12, 2016 03:12
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bump_fn posted:bernie ... good? Cliton exposed as fraud and a complete failure. She will be going back to collecting her Goldman Sachs money this week after recovering from her defeat. Bernie offers a way forward for success and not giving up.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:15
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A Winner is Jew posted:LBJ I agree with you on both points. Now, post-1968, here are Republican presidents who Got poo poo Done: Nixon - Ended Vietnam, established EPA, opened trade with China, began nuclear de-escalation, and got us Title IX. Reagan - I don't need to put anything here, surely. GWB - Started 2 (TWO!) wars, destabilized Middle East, established domestic surveillance state Starting to see the problem?
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Nov 12, 2016 03:15
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LastInLine posted:Honestly I think that's a symptom of the problem with the current Democratic party too. If Trump with his privileges can be perceived as the champion of the working class, where you're coming from doesn't matter as much as what you do. I think the Democrats in general have always cared far too much about optics and far too little about results Agreed. LastInLine posted:Serious question, who, in your opinion, is the last Democratic president to actually Get poo poo Done? Bill was very scummy but he navigated Washington expertly. Of course he didn't exactly get stuff we wanted very much done, but he did accomplish things. Carter got a lot loving done for a 1 term President but he made everyone in D.C. hate him and when the chips were down nobody had his back. Probably the best example of someone who Gets Things Done would be LBJ. The man was a legislative legend. The hawkishness he displayed in some area's was good, the big gently caress up that was Vietnam kinda rains on all his foreign policy accomplishments. All the good examples have drawbacks to them which is a good example of why baggage and scandals actually mean gently caress all vis a vis the effectiveness of your reign in office.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:15
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Guy Goodbody posted:Well I certainly do want to see the Democratic party embrace economic leftism and appeal to working class whites, but there's another big factor that can't be ignored Replace "boring technocrat" with "carefully triangulated and inoffensive suit trying desperately to do an impression of a business wing Republican" as if there's anybody on the planet that actually wants that and it will let us sneak D policies into the White House under cover of darkness. Then when it fails over and over again we sit around waiting for the genetic lottery to drop another "once in a lifetime master politician" in our laps because we think being able to genuinely connect with people different than yourself is magic that comes out of nowhere.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Can we talk now about how the idea that "demographics are destiny" is basically unreconstructed race science? Actual response to this is I think "demographics are destiny" ideology hosed up the Dems more than "identity politics" Viewing the electorate as just race, gender, and education (as a proxy for class) means the Dems missed a lot of obvious things. Like white women going to Trump, and Mook turning out other Trump supporters. It's also blinding a lot of the debate over Trump's base, because many commentators are assuming the high school educated white guy in Pittsburgh who's just sort of pissy about DC is as racist and ignorant as the high school educated guy in N. Carolina getting ready for the Klan. The geography of those two things can be switched too, since not all white guys in the South are racist and not all Northerners are woke. Things like social networks, life experiences, type of employment and union membership are just as important in determining beliefs in many social theories, but are hard for data firms to track. So you get a politics of what your data guys can track, and it winds up they think of things in terms of race science. Hot sauce and Beyonce for the black turnout, Abuela for the Latinos, and Lena Dunham for white women. Actually talking to people, learning of their concerns, and making a good faith effort to address them is better than whatever the gently caress Clinton 2016 just did.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:21
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bump_fn posted:people are very angry and upset about what happened so this is gonna happen and people should try to breathe deep and calm down pretty much this, once the dust settles it will get better just don't start plotting assassinations or anything grievously egregious in here, thats all its fine to be angry, i get it. I went off early in discord but yea don't start threatening people and calling for blood unironically. I'm not fond of probating if this happens unless you're a total dickbag, don't make me do it  Powercrazy, watch the racism chat if you're going to be inflammatory about it, thanks in advance. We should call for political capital instead, starting obviously with progressive control of the dnc as the left wanted when DWS kept shooting them down By the way if you guys are feeling really stressed out and need some decompression, C-SPAM Nite Crew has been playing music and movies for the past two weeks at night, so if you want to find out more about that, check the National Nightmare thread, I'll be posting some information about it pretty shortly. I really recommend it if you need to take the edge off, we're gonna be playing good movies. I don't want to derail too much here while there's some discussion. Keep it chill, namaste, 
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Nov 12, 2016 03:21
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MJ12 posted:A lot of progressive policy is good for companies and investors if they can get their heads out of their asses and look at the long term. We have a winner. This is how you get elites on board. I met a lot of awful poo poo heads at the fund raisers I attended this past year but I met one guy who was cool and this to say about supporting Dems: quote:Republican business leaders are just as dumb as their base is. They will cut taxes and deregulate everything only to flush the economy down the tubes and all their gains with it. Why do I support Dems, even progressives like Sanders crowd? Because I might gain 20% in lowered taxes in an R administration, but the possible market crash will cost me 50%! With dems I'm happy to pay more in taxes because I'll easily off set that with growth. Ever notice how all the Republican states are poo poo holes nobody rich wants to live in? There's a reason for that.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:23
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