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BadOptics posted:Yeah! gently caress minorities/LGBT people in red states who are to poor to move! So progressive. I always suspected that the true opposition to #Calexit will be NY, MA, etc. going "what the gently caress, don't leave us to doom in a theocracy."
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Nov 13, 2016 05:11
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RaySmuckles posted:
Yes the few posters in here blaming all white people for this outcome and saying we're all racists isn't going to change anyones minds, in fact if you really are just ignorant of racial issues, getting in their face about how they are awful people will just shut down any discussion. Forming a dialogue about how ~ issue ~ is a big problem facing LGBT/Hispanic/Blacks/etc. is important and trying to bring about understanding. It's not simple and plenty of people won't listen, however plenty will and adjust their beliefs accordingly. BadOptics posted:Yeah! gently caress minorities/LGBT people in red states who are to poor to move! So progressive. Were not abandoning them it's a strategic withdrawal. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 05:14
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Jack2142 posted:Yes the few posters in here blaming all white people for this outcome and saying we're all racists Quote one person who said this, or anything that can be reasonably construed as this.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:19
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Jack2142 posted:Yes the few posters in here blaming all white people for this outcome and saying we're all racists isn't going to change anyones minds, in fact if you really are just ignorant of racial issues, getting in their face about how they are awful people will just shut down any discussion. Forming a dialogue about how ~ issue ~ is a big problem facing LGBT/Hispanic/Blacks/etc. is important and trying to bring about understanding. It's not simple and plenty of people won't listen, however plenty will and adjust their beliefs accordingly. Blaming white people for the problem isn't an answer to the problem, it's an answer to the bernouts and stayhomes complaining that it's everyone else's fault but theirs. That's been like, 80% of the discussion in this thread.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:21
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sincx posted:I always suspected that the true opposition to #Calexit will be NY, MA, etc. going "what the gently caress, don't leave us to doom in a theocracy." also the US military
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Nov 13, 2016 05:23
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sincx posted:I always suspected that the true opposition to #Calexit will be NY, MA, etc. going "what the gently caress, don't leave us to doom in a theocracy." MA would be fine with a theocracy, as long as it was based on lapsed Catholic atheists like God intended.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:31
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MickeyFinn posted:I know a dude who doesn't think Trump is racist. He knows the things that Trump has said, so he isn't ignorant of facts, he just thinks it is stupid, but not racist. Motivated reasoning is a hell of a thing. I asked some pro-Trump acquaintances that are pretty devout Christians what their thought process was behind voting for someone that seemed to be the antithesis of the biblical definition of a good person. The main points I listed were the typical: racist, misogynist, sexual harassment, etc.. etc.. The first response I got was: How is Trump racist? Give me one example. I sent one of the many highly documented examples (pre-campaign since they'd obviously decided nothing he's said in the campaign was racist somehow) along with one of the many articles listing several instances. They replied back that none of those are 100% substantiated and most of the examples in the article aren't even racist in his view. The main example (his statements about black and Jews in his casino) was dismissed as just being the way people talked back then, people made jokes about race/culture all the time because they weren't thin skinned. No... people back then frequently made racist statements because they were racist and it was a lot more acceptable in public. I didn't bother following up with the misogyny and sexual assault issues because I knew the response would be basically "locker room talk", etc.. and I wasn't looking for an argument or debate, just insight behind their choice to vote for Trump. I honestly hadn't even considered the fact that people really believed he wasn't racist. Sometimes I forget Arkansas is in the South and apparently here you're not racist as long as you're not using racial slurs or burning crosses. So at least some percentage of his voters are just completely in denial when it comes to the type of person he is. Though I think the truth is more that they're lying to themselves so they can vote for their party and not have to deal with the moral implications of that vote going to a horrible person.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:31
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if it was a hereditary monarchy with lapsed catholic/Bostoner rebbe Kennedys as the ruling class that would probably fly with most people in the commonwealth
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Nov 13, 2016 05:32
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RandomBlue posted:I asked some pro-Trump acquaintances that are pretty devout Christians what their thought process was behind voting for someone that seemed to be the antithesis of the biblical definition of a good person. The main points I listed were the typical: racist, misogynist, sexual harassment, etc.. etc.. Yeah, this is it. There is an old Upton Sinclair quote about how it is impossible to convince any man something is true when his job depends on his not believing it. Same mechanism here. If Trump were racist or fascist then having voted for him would have been unforgivable. So a lot of people just find it easier to be blind to his racism than to consider that they might have done something bad when they voted for him.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:37
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nessin posted:You mean the KKK march that didn't actually happen? There is some pretty weird and hosed up poo poo going on in the US, even in blue areas, but I won't belabor you with my 'data' because it's all anecdotal. poo poo is real enough and it's all going to seem very far away and fake until it's everywhere. Trump has to get out in front of this thing if he has any genuine desire to not be a huge racist rear end in a top hat. Even something like, "hey guys knock it off" would be appreciated.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:37
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Reports from the field: Trump's status as president-elect has caused a marked uptick in hate crimes and an enormous, unprecedented surge in concern trolling. The next four years are going to be rough.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:38
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Mendrian posted:There is some pretty weird and hosed up poo poo going on in the US, even in blue areas, but I won't belabor you with my 'data' because it's all anecdotal. poo poo is real enough and it's all going to seem very far away and fake until it's everywhere. Don't worry, he has no such desire. I'd he responds at all it will just be to deny that it is happening. Fakers and losers!
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Nov 13, 2016 05:38
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nessin posted:You mean the KKK march that didn't actually happen? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/11/12/post-election-spate-hate-crimes-worse-than-post-911-experts-say/93681294/
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Nov 13, 2016 05:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Don't worry, he has no such desire. I'd he responds at all it will just be to deny that it is happening. Fakers and losers! Professional hate crime victims incited by unfair media.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:41
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i mean even reagan's campaign manager mentioned "tax breaks" as a dogwhistle term for n*****r
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Nov 13, 2016 05:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, this is it. There is an old Upton Sinclair quote about how it is impossible to convince any man something is true when his job depends on his not believing it. I think - and this may be the crux of the argument - that there are vastly differing definitions of 'racism' at play. Ideas like inward/outward racism or active/passive racism are relatively new social ideas and it's really not surprising that people don't think that way, but it is kind of a shame.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:42
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The Shortest Path posted:Same, and several of the remaining care more about EMAILS!! BENGHAZI!!!1 than the racism or subscribe to "they're both equally bad" South Park politik. This is the one that drives me most crazy. I could post a video of Trump raping a 6 year old child while taking the lord's name in vain and signing a pledge to gas homeless people and my dipshit FB friends would be like "well they're both bad, what are you going to do? Clinton's a criminal."  gently caress this emailbenghaziemailbenghaziemailbenghazi bullshit. It gave license to these morons with no sense of nuance to condemn Hillary over penny ante bullshit.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:42
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when i was at an internship in Iowa I walked people through what it might mean to poor people if people began to hate graduated income tax and love sales tax. and I made sure to emphasize how it would affect certain races disproportionately. Unless the person I was talking to was stupid (unfortunately a lot of them were fellow engineers) they'd stand corrected and thanked me for my input.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:44
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Why would a Constitutional Convention be bad here? Like why would they even want to call it? Just to completely solidify their control over government?
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Nov 13, 2016 05:45
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Mendrian posted:I think - and this may be the crux of the argument - is that there are vastly differing definitions of 'racism' at play. I don't think that analysis flies because Trump's racism is not sophisticated. It is blunt and crude. He refused apartments to black tenants. He said a judge could not rule fairly because he had Mexican ancestry. He called immigrants rapists. So on, so forth. There are no new ideas here, he isn't subtle. The Klan endorsed him for a reason. They're marching in celebration for a reason. And everyone knows what that reason is. But some people don't want to admit it.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:46
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Stallion Cabana posted:Why would a Constitutional Convention be bad here? Like why would they even want to call it? Just to completely solidify their control over government? I guess they could put something really stupid in the Constitution, like no abortion or something but yeah you're right, I don't see any wild changes to it. One of the nice self correcting things about the Republicans is that they all love the Constitution so much they'd marry it so I don't see any big changes happening.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:47
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Stallion Cabana posted:Why would a Constitutional Convention be bad here? Like why would they even want to call it? Just to completely solidify their control over government? Marriage amendment, for starters.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't think that analysis flies because Trump's racism is not sophisticated. It is blunt and crude. He refused apartments to black tenants. He said a judge could not rule fairly because he had Mexican ancestry. He called immigrants rapists. So on, so forth. Trump's racism may be overt and active but his voters not always so.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:48
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Stallion Cabana posted:Why would a Constitutional Convention be bad here? Like why would they even want to call it? Just to completely solidify their control over government? Add a 2nd, 2nd ammendment. Then the gungrabbers gotta repeal two of em, clever. 
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Nov 13, 2016 05:48
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speng31b posted:Quote one person who said this, or anything that can be reasonably construed as this. There were a couple of people posting that crap in here or one of the other post-trump threads today, they seemed to have moderated in posting or just have been probated. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 05:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Marriage amendment, for starters. I don't know if it speaks to my lack of creativity or my lack of sense but I hadn't even considered that. It makes my last comment extremely prescient.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:48
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Mendrian posted:Trump's racism may be overt and active but his voters not always so. Right, but for the "is Trump himself racist?" question.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:49
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Mendrian posted:I guess they could put something really stupid in the Constitution, like no abortion or something but yeah you're right, I don't see any wild changes to it. One of the nice self correcting things about the Republicans is that they all love the Constitution so much they'd marry it so I don't see any big changes happening. yeah like I get I guess they could do 'gently caress it no Muslims' or 'EVERYONE BETTER BELIEVE IN GOD AND CLIMATE CHANGE IS FAKE AND DEMOCRATS ARE ILLEGAL AND gently caress THE GAYS' but like. that's not realistic. That's evil empire doing dumb bullshit. Why would they open themselves up to even the possibility of weakness that something like that could cause when they could just do it through non crazy means? I don't know, it just seems far fetched. I mean I could be wrong, goodness knows. I could be totally off base and if they promised a new Consitution with no gays and all the guns people would go 'gently caress YES JUST LIKE THE FOUNDERS WANTED WHEN THEY WROTE THE ORIGINAL ONE' but it seems weird. Sorry, out of all the things that this election has a pretty huge chance of having completely hosed I think this is kind of unlikely, at least to me.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:50
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Stallion Cabana posted:yeah like I get I guess they could do 'gently caress it no Muslims' or 'EVERYONE BETTER BELIEVE IN GOD AND CLIMATE CHANGE IS FAKE AND DEMOCRATS ARE ILLEGAL AND gently caress THE GAYS' but like. I don't think Trump himself is really interested in relitigating gay marriage, but he changes attitudes from moment to moment so who knows. Abortion is more concerning.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Marriage amendment, for starters. This 100% this and if this happens then well thats just that because it would take decades to get rid of it.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:54
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speng31b posted:I don't think Trump himself is really interested in relitigating gay marriage, but he changes attitudes from moment to moment so who knows. Abortion is more concerning. Trump doesnt contol congress. Repubs do
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Nov 13, 2016 05:56
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Mendrian posted:Trump's racism may be overt and active but his voters not always so. Doesn't matter. Every citizen of Nazi Germany wasn't literally gassing Jews as a hobby in their backyard, but they passively allowed the concentration and extermination of them to occur because they didn't care. Voting for Trump makes one complicit in his racism. You give tacit consent with your indifference.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:56
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The GOP has no mandate for a constitutional convention and they know it. Besides, they don't have the numbers for it even after this rout. They're going to cloak this poo poo in "states rights" like they always have.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:56
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Marriage amendment, for starters. This is the most terrifying prospect, aside from all the other ones. Anything that Republicans are currently pushing as law could be enshrined in the Constitution semi-permanently. Not just opposite-sex marriage. Right to work. Religious freedom. Voter ID. The Constitution is the last line of defense. It overrules all other branches of government. Any law that Republicans pass, anywhere in the country, can be declared unconstitutional, up until they control what the Constitution says. Then it's over.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:56
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Cup Runneth Over posted:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/11/12/post-election-spate-hate-crimes-worse-than-post-911-experts-say/93681294/ I don't deny that's it happening, or that Trump supporters are instigating it in some cases. I was pretty clear about that in my last sentence. I was replying to someone who was specifically blaming Trump, Trump Supporters, and listed only events which would apply to Trump Supporters lashing out at non-Trump supporters.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:57
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TheDon01 posted:Trump doesnt contol congress. Repubs do True, but it remains to be seen how that whole dynamic's going to work.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:58
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I also find it odd that so many of the religious right want to keep Muslims out of our country given that our country was started by people fleeing religious persecution and founded with religious freedom as one of the core tenets. I've seen the usual argument about terrorism and "you don't see Christians flying planes into buildings". The 9/11 attacks killed 2,996 according to Wikipedia. The KKK, who consider themselves to be a Christian group, have killed 3,446 African Americans between 1882 and 1968 according to one study.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:59
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Cup Runneth Over posted:This is the most terrifying prospect, aside from all the other ones. Anything that Republicans are currently pushing as law could be enshrined in the Constitution semi-permanently. Not just opposite-sex marriage. Right to work. Religious freedom. Voter ID. The Constitution is the last line of defense. It overrules all other branches of government. Any law that Republicans pass, anywhere in the country, can be declared unconstitutional, up until they control what the Constitution says. Then it's over. I'm not sure how they would ever gain control of either 67 Senate seats or 38 states needed to amend the Constitution.
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Nov 13, 2016 06:01
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Cup Runneth Over posted:This is the most terrifying prospect, aside from all the other ones. Anything that Republicans are currently pushing as law could be enshrined in the Constitution semi-permanently. Not just opposite-sex marriage. Right to work. Religious freedom. Voter ID. The Constitution is the last line of defense. It overrules all other branches of government. Any law that Republicans pass, anywhere in the country, can be declared unconstitutional, up until they control what the Constitution says. Then it's over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSANTRnEBgg "Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws"
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Nov 13, 2016 06:06
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greatn posted:I'm not sure how they would ever gain control of either 67 Senate seats or 38 states needed to amend the Constitution. We weren't sure how they would ever ram Donald Trump into the white house either, yet here we are. Don't underestimate the mountains that can be moved by their spite.
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Nov 13, 2016 06:06
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