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This is what you need to be a Final Fantasy game.
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Nov 13, 2016 09:12
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Except that hasn't really been true since 6 moving forward. Since they started writing actual stories for the games they kind of move heavily away from old concepts, keeping them in name or very loose association if they kept them at all. 6 to 7 to 9 to 10 have very little in common w/r/t lore or setting, minus the name of a few attack names here and there. 6 > 7 is a bad example because those two are probably the two most similar consecutive Final Fantasies. Maybe it's because I'm ultimately a child of the classic FFs where that was much stronger, but it's certainly still present. Some are far more imaginative than others, but they do share those same building blocks. That consistent vocabulary and bestiary is a big part of it, I'll admit; you will always be able to grasp what spells do what by name, Ifrit will always be your real introduction to summons (or at least pretty close by), and you know poo poo's gotten real when Meteor gets involved. But it's also sort of an intangible central piece to the approach, this consistency to how they play. I haven't really put enough thought into this to describe it, but it's all those little things to the gameplay systems that make them feel consistent and familiar. It's like an extreme version of how Nintendo's franchises go; no matter what new stuff a new Zelda throws at you, you can be confident that inside it's still the same game. I dunno, my vocabulary is failing me on this one.
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Nov 13, 2016 09:39
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Cleretic posted:6 > 7 is a bad example because those two are probably the two most similar consecutive Final Fantasies. Yeah, no, not buying that. I mean, this is just factually incorrect. Ifrit is always your introduction to summons? Sounds like someone's played V and just sort of stopped paying attention after that. VI and IX both have Ramuh as your primary summon point of contact, X puts Valefor front and center and XII doesn't even have an Ifrit. You can say Belias is kind of an Ifrit but then you'd be lying, wouldn't you? XII doesn't even have the classic summons! They're in there as name drops! You say "or close enough" but no, that's not close enough by a mile. XV has featured Ramuh and Carbuncle in its preview materials so far, that's already sticking closer to the "classic" summons than XII. "poo poo's gotten real when Meteor gets involved"? Where's the meteor in VIII? IX? X? XII? XIII? X moving back to a purely turn-based system is a sort of throwback to the NES era so we'll let that one slide, but in what way is XII's real-time with programmable AI acceptably Final Fantasy-esque whereas XV's isn't? Where do Hell Houses and the sentient choppers from VII fall on the Classic Final Fantasy Bestiary? Were they the next step in the evolution of Imps and Flans, which were not in that game at all? What about the consistency of the tried and true Chocobo-as-means-of-no-encounter mode of transportation? How does VIII's greater accessibility and focus on rental cars get a pass? I mean, no offense, man, but that whole bit about ~the indelible essence of Final Fantasy~, or XV's lack of it, is nothing more than trying to pin an objective criticism on a subjective queasiness. I'm not sure I'll like XV one bit either but I felt that way about XII as well and I didn't try to make it about how it wasn't "real" FF, I just said I didn't like it.
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Nov 13, 2016 10:05
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Other than music, motifs like Cid/several iconic monsters/spell names are really the only common factor among FF games, and it seems like FFXV is chock full of those. 
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Nov 13, 2016 11:02
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Cleretic posted:6 > 7 is a bad example because those two are probably the two most similar consecutive Final Fantasies. Secondly Ifrit being your first summon isn't even true for the other Final Fantasy games. In 3 Evokers had all kinds of poo poo before getting full summons, In 4 There's the Mist Dragon, Titan, and Chocobo well before you meet the elemental summons and the former set are all part of the story where the latter have nothing to do with the narrative. 5 has several small summons and Shiva dungeons before Ifrit is ever available. 6 has you meet Ramuh and his squad before you go save Ifrit and Shiva, You get Chocobo and Shiva before him in 7 and summons have nothing to do with the story at all, 8 he's the first you get outside of the starter set, 9's plot in the first few discs is all about summons and you see Odin and Atomos as important plot points long before you could ever cast Ifrit and you get Ramuh, Phoenix, and Fenrir before you get Ifrit back. 12 and 13 don't even have him in there as summons. Most of what you call out as common connections is similarly kind of unconnected. Your own personal childhood memories of FF are probably a little off from sheer age and just nostalgia, because you seem to be basing these ~Final Fantasy Essentia~ is based entirely on half remembered facts. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 11:31
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:First, that initial claim requires some explanation because it is not some naturally inherent truth like you seem to feel it is. Umm, no? Final Fantasy 6 and Final Fantasy 7, out of all the other pairings of all of the Final Fantasies, are the most similar. It is a naturally inherent truth and requires no further explanation, despite how YOU feel. gently caress you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 13, 2016 12:55
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Well, the thing I was trying to say there was that while that vocabulary and series of recurring elements is certainly a factor, it's not the only one. There's also far more intangible concepts. (I will admit I hosed up my selections horribly, though.) I admit the separation I'm trying to talk about thereis hard to describe in Final Fantasy, so to nail them down I'm instead going to use a different example: Hyrule Warriors. It has a lot of that surface-level vocabulary you'd point to when saying 'this is a Legend of Zelda game'. it's got Link, Zelda and Ganon, it's got the Master Sword and the Triforce as central story points, you collect staples like bombs, the boomerang and the hookshot to solve puzzles and fight enemies that are only vulnerable to them, and if you're willing to fudge the numbers a bit you can even say it's got dungeon-style levels that contain McGuffins. If you're making a checklist of Things Zelda Games Have, it'd probably score just as well as something like Link's Awakening. But all of that does not make it a Legend of Zelda game, because mechanically it's something different, it's Dynasty Warriors. It's doing its own spin on that formula, using those Zelda staples to do something new with that formula, but wearing those clothes doesn't make it a Legend of Zelda game instead. And that's how I see FFXV. While it does seem to have a lot of superficial Things Final Fantasy Games Have, it looks to me like it's lacking too much of the under-the-hood mechanical things that 'make' a Final Fantasy game for me. I'm guessing I probably hosed up that explanation too, but that's what I'm rolling with. I admit this is kind of a pointless argument for me to be having anyway, because unless that rumor of it coming to PC comes true I'm not gonna be able to play it anyway, but that's where I'm coming from. ZenMasterBullshit posted:First, that initial claim requires some explanation because it is not some naturally inherent truth like you seem to feel it is. First of all I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, because VI and VII are both pretty solid games. For what it's worth I like VII more after having played both, so it's not even throwing stones at it for being derivative. Mechanically, if you were to distill and describe the progression mechanics of Final Fantasy games in the simplest way, VI and VII are the only ones where you'd use largely the same description twice in a row: equip magical things onto your party members to get separate experience that gradually gives you access to stronger magic/abilities. It's far from the only time two FF games have the same general description there (III/V, X/XII), but that's the only time where there isn't at least one game between them. Narratively, they've got a lot of similar plot features, just in nowhere near the same order or implementation. Vector and Shinra are both massive industrialist cities doing terrible things to the setting's source of magic for technological power. Kefka and Sephiroth are both experiments that go off the rails and eventually usurp their creators' antagonist role when they sink their teeth into a big ancient magical power nexus. Celes and Cloud are both supersoldiers made by the initial antagonist force, Terra and Aerith are both innocent (well okay, 'innocent' in Aerith's case) magic-using girls that are members/descendants of a largely-lost mystical race that is relevant to the story's main conflict. I could continue going on with parallels that admittedly get a little muddier after here (Leo/Zack, Death Gaze/Ultima Weapon), but generally I'm saying that there's a lot of common threads between the two games, they're just putting all of those pieces in a different order. And like with the mechanics, you've occasionally got similar characters/details/plot outlines, but it's a rarity when they're adjacent like that. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 13:32
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On the other hand Hyrule Warriors is the best non-handheld Zelda game to come out since Wind Waker.
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Nov 13, 2016 13:40
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Cleretic posted:I feel like at this point I need to buy XIII just to have my own informed opinion on it. ...And probably XIII-3, because what little I've seen of it seems to be 'Things Cleretic Likes: The Game' only with Lightning as a protagonist instead of someone like Faris (and even then...). lightning returns is maybe 20 hours long
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Nov 13, 2016 14:22
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I would agree that XV has strayed from what mainline Final Fantasies have felt like, except XII came out a long time ago and that to me pretty much told me "Final Fantasy can be whatever it wants". The combat to me felt entirely different from what a Final Fantasy game before had done.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:10
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XV feels more like a standard AAA game with FF names stapled onto it I guess from what I've seen. I guess if you wanted 'old school' FFs you'd look at WoFF. I'm sure I'll still enjoy it, with my inner hipster going 'I liked Final Fantasy while you guys were still raving about Dark Souls and Skyrim'.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:14
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Pretty excited for Final Fantasy XVI to come out so we can talk about how it isn't a real Final Fantasy.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:22
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FF15 isn't a real Final Fantasy because I still can't believe it's coming out.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:24
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FF15 is going to be bad because it's 4 guys and Trump is president so you know what that means
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Nov 13, 2016 16:32
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I can't believe not-a-real-Final-Fantasy and not-a-real-Resident Evil are coming out within two months of each other it's like 2005 all over again.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:32
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FFXV is going to be trash and I don't know how anybody could possibly defend it in light of taking 10 years to make. Enjoy your dead gay game plebs!
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Nov 13, 2016 16:49
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Terper posted:It's the first half of chapter 1 Badass
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Nov 13, 2016 16:49
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if I cant even kiss them, whats the loving point?
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Nov 13, 2016 17:02
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Sakurazuka posted:I can't believe not-a-real-Final-Fantasy and not-a-real-Resident Evil are coming out within two months of each other it's like 2005 all over again. the last not-a-real-resident evil was the best in the series so perhaps its time for final fantasy to get its turn
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Nov 13, 2016 17:04
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Is there a list of the preorder bonuses and where they're available from for FFXV in the UK? PSN has a bunch of stuff, including the Season Pass, but I really want a physical copy. Game seems to be my best bet so far, since it has a pack with Kingsglave and the steelbook, but no pass.
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Nov 13, 2016 18:46
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Dammit there is a great orchestra version of this that I can't find now.
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Nov 13, 2016 19:00
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Kaboom Dragoon posted:Is there a list of the preorder bonuses and where they're available from for FFXV in the UK? PSN has a bunch of stuff, including the Season Pass, but I really want a physical copy. Game seems to be my best bet so far, since it has a pack with Kingsglave and the steelbook, but no pass. I went with amazon in the end because I trust their shipping a lot more than I trust my local Game, and the price difference on PSN is nuts. As far as I can tell, Game, Amazon and PSN are the only sources of bonus content.
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Nov 13, 2016 20:04
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The Black Stones posted:I would agree that XV has strayed from what mainline Final Fantasies have felt like, except XII came out a long time ago and that to me pretty much told me "Final Fantasy can be whatever it wants". The combat to me felt entirely different from what a Final Fantasy game before had done. Also X game out before that and if you wanna play "Which one of these games doesn't belong" with mainline FF it's probably going to be the psychedelic Pacific island themed one with the religious focused narrative where all the outfits and high tech stuff looks right out of some neon fairy tale.   Seriously if you told 2000's me that these were from the next final fantasy game I wouldn't have believed you. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 20:38
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Also X game out before that and if you wanna play "Which one of these games doesn't belong" with mainline FF it's probably going to be the psychedelic Pacific island themed one with the religious focused narrative where all the outfits and high tech stuff looks right out of some neon fairy tale. Uh FF2 doesn't belong at all what with not having levels.
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Nov 13, 2016 20:42
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Agreed. This makes me very happy. (although it means that FF2, FFT, FF8, FF10, and FF13 aren't Final Fantasy games)
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Nov 13, 2016 20:49
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Fister Roboto posted:Agreed. This makes me very happy. Someone doesn't rememeber the credits of FFVIII! I salute your noble efforts but we can't disown FFVIII.
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Nov 13, 2016 20:57
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Barudak posted:Uh FF2 doesn't belong at all what with not having levels. To be honest I was mostly talking about visuals and story, but you're right the series has always been kind of free form with letting games do whatever. Hell after that proto-saga game we got the first class swapping system, which is also a massive departure from the original. Cleretic posted:First of all I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, because VI and VII are both pretty solid games. For what it's worth I like VII more after having played both, so it's not even throwing stones at it for being derivative. You don't feel like you're broadstroking it very hard to lose details? Because on a surface level yeah Kefka and Sephy are both crazy experiments, but once you go beyond even a cursory glance their roles in the story, how they interact with the other characters, their goals and motivations, the tone and weight the story gives them, their origins are all massively different. All your points you're boiling them down to a few bullet points so you can try to overlap them. Like the Terra/Aerith comparison is completely laughable because even you point out that the connection you're making is spurious at best when you look at how one of the characters is written. If you take away the vague 'similar personalities' you have "Are magical and important to the plot." which describes half the cast of any fantasy RPG ever made. In fact Aerith and Terra couldn't be less alike. Aerith is a wise young lady who understand basically everything going around her well before anyone else gets it who is confident and never really wavers. She even ends up kind of manipulating the protagonist who she knows isn't quite right in the head but she needs his help and kind of likes him. Her motives are kept hidden for a lot of the game and most of the things she does make a hell of a lot more sense in hindsight. Terra's entire arc and character is about being unsure about herself and others, mistrustful and fearful of what she is/might have to do. She's one of the two main protagonists and your focal character for half of it so there's no real mystery to what she's thinking or planning. She's quiet, lacks confidence, and is pretty self serious. Aerith on the other hand makes goofs, never doubts that she can do something, and is the first person to threaten to castrate a man to get info. You're kind trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with these comparisons. The Leo/Zack one is similarly vapid because the only real trait their stories have is "Worked for bad guys, died." Who they are, what they did, how their stories affected the narrative and cast as a whole, their motivations and how the greater plot uses them could not be any more different. Most of your comparisons are like this. Fister Roboto posted:Agreed. This makes me very happy. Excuse me, FF10 had a version of Prelude. It was just Zanarkand as all hell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FhS5eRD6iM ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 21:04
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Oh my god how long is this final dungeon in 13?
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Nov 13, 2016 21:56
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Nephzinho posted:Dammit there is a great orchestra version of this that I can't find now. Please find it
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Nov 13, 2016 21:58
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Sakurazuka posted:Oh my god how long is this final dungeon in 13? Much like the rest of the game, too long. The Huge Manatee posted:I went with amazon in the end because I trust their shipping a lot more than I trust my local Game, and the price difference on PSN is nuts. As far as I can tell, Game, Amazon and PSN are the only sources of bonus content. If Game is the only one with actual unique content for the physical release, I'll probably go with them. I have a Game right round the corner from my work, so I'd probably just skip along after on release day.
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Nov 13, 2016 21:59
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Sakurazuka posted:Oh my god how long is this final dungeon in 13? There's like 4 long stretches with a boss at the end of each then a small room with a save point and a teleporter to the opening room and a door to the final boss.
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Nov 13, 2016 21:59
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That final stretch where you enter into Eden's true form or whatever that weird dimension is is an absolute slog. Even going through there completely maxed out on everything is a huge pain and the only thing going through your head is "When will this end?" as the place is rearranged and another path is opened up to you by those weird robot ladies.
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Nov 13, 2016 22:09
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I like that part because the fights are pretty challenging
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Nov 13, 2016 22:11
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Although that's also where I got to on the PC version before thinking "I wonder what cheat engine does t this game" and messing around with 999% insta-stagger cheats
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Nov 13, 2016 22:11
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One of the hallmarks of FF since 6 has been a large diverse playable cast and 15 does not have that and it bugs me. 10 handled the cast size in battle mechanics best because you could use everyone in a battle. I wish they'd taken that idea and riffed on it but open world games are the big thing and here we are.
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Nov 13, 2016 22:20
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Outside of normal attacks, noctis have movesets similar to his friends and you control all their specials anyway
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Nov 13, 2016 22:24
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I can see the end now but I'm also feeling ill because my sisters kids gave me a bug or something so who knows if I'll survive to see it.
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Nov 13, 2016 22:35
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bloodychill posted:One of the hallmarks of FF since 6 has been a large diverse playable cast and 15 does not have that and it bugs me. 10 handled the cast size in battle mechanics best because you could use everyone in a battle. I wish they'd taken that idea and riffed on it but open world games are the big thing and here we are. On the other hand, as far as gameplay goes, a big problem the series has had since 6 has been in making each character feel unique in combat, since by and large, after a while, everyone can do everything. 9 was the last game in the series that managed to give everyone a distinct role (yes, I know, there's also 12 Zodiac Edition, but that was released after the fact) and X did a really good job of it, until you got to the end and had the resources to explore other characters' Sphere Grids. Since then, if you're not being forced to use certain characters, you load up your party with whoever you like best and you're away.
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Nov 13, 2016 22:54
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Final Fantasy 1 just isn't Final Fantasy enough
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Nov 13, 2016 23:00
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I can't believe people post in this thread without grasping the true essence of FF. You should be ashamed and stop posting...in life.
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Nov 13, 2016 23:00
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