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Lightning Knight posted:Those jobs aren't coming back. What part of that is so loving difficult? The factories that have come back are robot-focused. We can't give these people back the 1950s, no matter what they demand. I mean, poo poo, last month I was saying "gently caress these people". They are not easy to like much of the time. For all her faults Hillary's Presidency would have been better for these people, there are people running for national and local office who will do even more for them in that capacity than Hillary would have done as President, but instead they voted for the screaming mouth and the people in his party downticket, who will do nothing for them but at least say they will and toss them a few scapegoats to blame.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:23
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I wonder, if you had a machine where you just turn a lever over and over and eventually you got a sticker saying "You succesfully built one [insert object here]" would that make people feel part of the building process? I will probably never understand this idea that certain work is for certain people either. It's like so many things we organise ourselves into "in group" and "out group" but sometimes it's just really hard to understand what is going on. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 16:23
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The people talking about how the jobs aren't coming back are missing the point. The jobs won't be back but you can expressly task government for the purpose of keeping people employed doing make work forever. Japan dealt with deindustrialization in the hinterlands through massive infrastructure spending. Highways to nowhere that are repaved regularly. China's GDP in some part gets propped up by massive government spending on infrastructure that is rebuilt frequently. I've seen 2 lane roads get expanded to 4 lane and then 6 lanes in between the constant repaving.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:23
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Lightning Knight posted:You're a massive prick about everything and your holier than thou "I'm the real leftist and you're all dirty centrist Clinton supporters" can gently caress right off. It's true, the democrats didn't destroy unions, they knowingly abandoned them once it became politically inconvenient to support them. You sure owned that guy by proving his point?
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Nov 13, 2016 16:26
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Condiv posted:and maintained the robots with their own money. and upgraded the robots with their own money. and fed the robots with their own money. etc. etc.  Dude, all of these factories haven't gone the route of automation because they specifically wanted to throw workers out in the cold. It's cheaper in the long run, you get more consistent products, and you also produce more of those consistent products. The jobs that have been automated aren't coming back and the ones that can be automated will be automated as soon as it's feasible for a company to do so. Those tax subsidies are what gets the factory where it's at. There were going to be robots in it no matter where it was.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:26
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Josef bugman posted:It might be because I am legit hosed in the brain, but I despair of this sometimes. I can't seem to understand it. Come on man what's to understand. To them a Factory job, is a 40hr a week good paying job, that you could retire from. They want the same poo poo you want a good paying job that, will afford them a good life, a job that they will not have to worry about losing all the time.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:27
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Business Gorillas posted:It's true, the democrats didn't destroy unions, they knowingly abandoned them once it became politically inconvenient to support them. lol remember when jimmy carter campaigned on guaranteed employment and then didn't do it and all the unionists backed reagan the next time round
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Nov 13, 2016 16:27
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Business Gorillas posted:It's true, the democrats didn't destroy unions, they knowingly abandoned them once it became politically inconvenient to support them. Yeah, but you were arguing they destroyed them. Bit of a difference when their own members turn on you. Why support people who don't want your support? The Republicans haven't in ages and they keep winning stuff.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:28
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Josef bugman posted:I wonder, if you had a machine where you just turn a lever over and over and eventually you got a sticker saying "You succesfully built one [insert object here]" would that make people feel part of the building process? The more separation between the person and the creation of the object the worse it is. So you have skilled labor at the top and on down to "push a button to turn robot on, watch colored light and push button if it turns red" at the worst end.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:28
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The other half of the jobs coming back thing is that if factories do move here in an onshoring effort they are going to be set up overwhelmingly in the south with right to work laws.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:28
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Condiv posted:hmm, and these factories are run with massive tax subsidies too. i wonder if that has an effect on them being able to afford robots instead of workers That's luddite nonsense, automatization is the wave of the future, like it or not.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:29
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Kilroy posted:Every time you hear "bring back the factory jobs" just replace it with "bring back economic empowerment". Nobody cares if they're working an actual factory job or not, they care if they're working a job where the pay is poo poo but there's 100 people in line waiting to take their job anyway, where if they get sick their boss still has them come in, where a bad quarter means they lose their job - or even a good quarter might mean they'll lose their job, just basically where the power is totally on the side of the employer and not at all on the side of the worker. They are treated as disposable chattel and there isn't anything they can do about it because it's either submit or be out on the street. Humiliate people like that long enough and eventually they'll vote for Donald Trump. I dunno the guy from PA who posted seemed pretty adamant that it has to be manly work because service jobs are for wives and children. Peven Stan posted:The people talking about how the jobs aren't coming back are missing the point. The jobs won't be back but you can expressly task government for the purpose of keeping people employed doing make work forever. I mean we can do this but it's inefficient. At a certain point we're subsidizing people to live in rural areas so they can hold on to the past indefinitely. I suppose that isn't really a problem if it doesn't mean sacrificing urban areas, but we also have to account for the fact that we're wasting a lot of resources while people in the Third World starve. There's so many people with nothing and not enough to go around. Business Gorillas posted:It's true, the democrats didn't destroy unions, they knowingly abandoned them once it became politically inconvenient to support them. What even is reading comprehension. Democrats didn't abandon unions, unions abandoned Democrats. Yes we should've kept fighting, but at the end of the day the New Deal coalition collapsed in the '70s because white union workers decided they valued candidates selling them on dogwhistle racism and backlash against desegregation more than they did their unions.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:29
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Stultus Maximus posted:The more separation between the person and the creation of the object the worse it is. So you have skilled labor at the top and on down to "push a button to turn robot on, watch colored light and push button if it turns red" at the worst end. I suppose. I just can't understand it, it's like the people who I work with. They spend hours, days of their lives moaning about where they work and the pay an so on. Then they say "but I won't join the union" or they come in on off days to help or they come in if they are ill. It's like loving stockholm syndrome.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:30
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build shitloads of public universities construction jobs, service and education jobs on the campuses, higher student capacity and lower tuitions, results in educated workforce capable of engaging in industries america has trade advantages in
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Nov 13, 2016 16:31
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Lightning Knight posted:You're a massive prick about everything and your holier than thou "I'm the real leftist and you're all dirty centrist Clinton supporters" can gently caress right off. Centrists can gently caress right off. We just got done coddling their worthless political ideology all general and centrists not only lost humiliatingly, they refuse to learn their lesson.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:32
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Peven Stan posted:The people talking about how the jobs aren't coming back are missing the point. The jobs won't be back but you can expressly task government for the purpose of keeping people employed doing make work forever. Josef bugman posted:I wonder, if you had a machine where you just turn a lever over and over and eventually you got a sticker saying "You succesfully built one [insert object here]" would that make people feel part of the building process? We need to curb the worst abuses of globalism which shift economic power up the ladder to the financial elites and the capitalists. We do need to bring back factories, run mostly by robots if you like, but owned by the workers and the profit distributed to those workers rather than funneled to the capitalists.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:33
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean we can do this but it's inefficient. At a certain point we're subsidizing people to live in rural areas so they can hold on to the past indefinitely. I suppose that isn't really a problem if it doesn't mean sacrificing urban areas, but we also have to account for the fact that we're wasting a lot of resources while people in the Third World starve. There's so many people with nothing and not enough to go around. Nobody cares about or benefits from efficiency except the tiny slice of fantastically wealthy capitalists at the top  That's a lot of room to be inefficient with labor costs without negatively impacting production of things
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Nov 13, 2016 16:33
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axelord posted:Come on man what's to understand. To them a Factory job, is a 40hr a week good paying job, that you could retire from. No that bit I can understand. Its more the bit from Popes toe about "I won't do that because it's womans work" or the post I was responding to which said that it was "productive". The productive bit is the bit I struggle with. Condiv posted:Centrists can gently caress right off. We just got done coddling their worthless political ideology all general and centrists not only lost humiliatingly, they refuse to learn their lesson. Bloke your talking to isn't centerist. But you and Business Gorrilla (whilst I may agree with you on many points) are still behaving as if anyone who disagrees with you is.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:34
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Condiv posted:Centrists can gently caress right off. We just got done coddling their worthless political ideology all general and centrists not only lost humiliatingly, they refuse to learn their lesson. lmao you just spent a hundred pages talking about how we lost to low turn out and now you want to turn away millions of voters. Progressives don't have the numbers to run the table from sheer force of will. Decades of propaganda against the left and entrenched FYGMism are massively working against us, we can't just shift the politics of this country overnight even if we wanted to. Like or not we need centrist Democrats to vote for us too. Bernie still lost the primary dude. quote:Nobody cares about or benefits from efficiency except the tiny slice of fantastically wealthy capitalists at the top I mean I don't care about efficiency of the work, I care about ensuring that we have the resources to end global poverty and are moving in that direction.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:34
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steinrokkan posted:That's luddite nonsense, automatization is the wave of the future, like it or not. I dunno I have a theory that ludditism could be the next idea that wins an election.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:35
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Kilroy posted:No, this is dumb and wasteful. We do need to focus on infrastructure, actually, and there are plenty of jobs to be created there, but building roads nobody is going to use, just for the gently caress of it, is dumb and does not grow the economy and does not truly empower anyone. This is the broken window fallacy. There are opportunity costs to what you're proposing which means this does more harm than good. It's just wealth redistribution writ large but with a veneer of "putting people to work". It will always be better to just cut people a check, than to do this. Agreed on that score. Crowsbeak posted:I dunno If we have a president named Butler then we can go full "Dune".
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Nov 13, 2016 16:36
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Pissing inability to post properly.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:36
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Condiv posted:Centrists can gently caress right off. We just got done coddling their worthless political ideology all general and centrists not only lost humiliatingly, they refuse to learn their lesson.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:38
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Lightning Knight posted:
Who cares man? Government has the beauty of being beholden not to shareholders but literally everyone in the country. Efficiency has never been the keyword for government, for better or worse, because people expect jobs from government. If you don't believe me, study how Clinton's Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) program pissed off nominally antigovernment republicans because he was going to end the gravy train for a lot of superfluous cold war-era military installations. The Postal Service could trim even harder by closing offices in unprofitable rural areas but the outcry would be absurd. If Trump can get his 1 trillion dollar crony infrastructure bill through congress then he will be reelected. It's that simple.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:42
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Lightning Knight posted:lmao you just spent a hundred pages talking about how we lost to low turn out and now you want to turn away millions of voters. We're a big tent party. It's just that the centrists have had decades to try their ideology and it's utterly failed us to the point of the dems being nearly dead. Their time as heads of the dem party is up, time for leftism to try.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:43
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Peven Stan posted:If Trump can get his 1 trillion dollar crony infrastructure bill through congress then he will be reelected. It's that simple. Mounting evidence for "no we're still pretty much hosed" continues to accumulate. Condiv posted:We're a big tent party. It's just that the centrists have had decades to try their ideology and it's utterly failed us to the point if the dems being nearly dead. Their time as heads of the dem party is up, time for leftism to try. You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that conservative Democrats don't still have all of the power and the money and don't actually believe in many of the things they claim to stand for. Also you seem to think they're just going to step aside and let us do whatever.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:44
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Condiv posted:We're a big tent party. It's just that the centrists have had decades to try their ideology and it's utterly failed us to the point if the dems being nearly dead. Their time as heads of the dem party is up, time for leftism to try. What happens if voters also reject socialist policy because the total tone of the nation shifts to the right under a trump presidency though?
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Nov 13, 2016 16:45
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Lightning Knight posted:Mounting evidence for "no we're still pretty much hosed" continues to accumulate. Just imagine if the centrists had compromised and we won? It'd be the age of the dems. Instead leftists were shut out and now we're done
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Nov 13, 2016 16:45
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Odds/Evens on how long it takes weird angry dudes like Gorillas going from only blaming minorities in the undertones to doing it openly in that scenario.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:46
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Sharkopath posted:What happens if voters also reject socialist policy because the total tone of the nation shifts to the right under a trump presidency though? Then you do what we in the UK are preparing to do. Die. Hope is a lie.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:47
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Condiv posted:Just imagine if the centrists had compromised and we won? It'd be the age of the dems. Instead leftists were shut out and now we're done lmao I love that your definition of "compromise" is "give us everything we want." Like yeah we should've run Bernie but the compromise was Hillary runs and Bernie gets to help write the platform. They did compromise. You didn't like the outcome. That's the problem. Progressives can't even stop fighting each other or minority voices long enough to come up with a solution and conservative Democrats aren't going to let us just do whatever because we keep saying they've failed. Meanwhile Trump is most assuredly going to get a second term. But that smugness sure feels good I bet, jackass.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:47
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Sharkopath posted:What happens if voters also reject socialist policy because the total tone of the nation shifts to the right under a trump presidency though? Presumably because he's been so successful, and there's lessened discontent with the Washington establishment? No. Voters will repudiate whatever "Washington is" at any given time almost regardless of all else, assuming they even have an option to do so. The only way Trump keeps the right in power much longer is if he literally dismantles the ability for anyone else to run.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:49
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Josef bugman posted:Bloke your talking to isn't centerist. But you and Business Gorrilla (whilst I may agree with you on many points) are still behaving as if anyone who disagrees with you is. Good thing my statement was centered on centrists and not him then huh? Lightning Knight posted:lmao I love that your definition of "compromise" is "give us everything we want." Like yeah we should've run Bernie but the compromise was Hillary runs and Bernie gets to help write the platform. They did compromise. You didn't like the outcome. That's the problem.  Go take a long hard look at clintons campaign and say they compromised again. Hillary paid some minimal lip service to a small amount of leftist stuff and dropped it
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Nov 13, 2016 16:49
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Condiv posted:
Sure. I'm sure that we're totally going to have unity and successfully depose the fascists, and not crash and burn when progressives take their ball and go home again. And again. And again.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:51
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Sharkopath posted:Odds/Evens on how long it takes weird angry dudes like Gorillas going from only blaming minorities in the undertones to doing it openly in that scenario. Keep an eye on the protests. Much more violence, or the right "type" of violence, and I can guarantee you'll see it the liberals turning on their own to bend over backwards in the name of order and civility.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:51
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Sharkopath posted:What happens if voters also reject socialist policy because the total tone of the nation shifts to the right under a trump presidency though? Don't forget the GOP is neoliberal in its own way as well they're just more ghoulish about it. It's just as dead now on their side too.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:52
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Sharkopath posted:What happens if voters also reject socialist policy because the total tone of the nation shifts to the right under a trump presidency though? Then we take what trumps doing that doesn't screw over the poor, weak, or downtrodden and try to forge a new platform that can win from that. Ditto for actually listening to people.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:53
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speng31b posted:Keep an eye on the protests. Much more violence, or the right "type" of violence, and I can guarantee you'll see it the liberals turning on their own to bend over backwards in the name of order and civility. I'm already seeing it in my circles with mostly white bernie supporters angry that people are protesting now when they didn't protest during the primary, so nobody should protest at all I guess. It seems really counterproductive in the name of righteous smuggery, which doesn't accomplish much.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:54
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you think these voters are dumb but they're smart enough to realize democrats have been selling them up the river for decades... they notice that type of poo poo if there is not a progressive revolution in the dnc it is done, progressives may as well abandon the party en-masse and commander the greens or something
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Nov 13, 2016 16:54
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Lightning Knight posted:Sure. I'm sure that we're totally going to have unity and successfully depose the fascists, and not crash and burn when progressives take their ball and go home again. And again. And again. So now you're dropping the pretense that clinton tried to compromise and jumping straight back into "it's the voters who are wrong, not clinton"
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Nov 13, 2016 16:55
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