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Zikan posted:this article is garbage No kidding. "People are now saying that the Democratic Party needs to change but I say gently caress it lets double down on the same old message and policies that pay lip service to minorities but have done nothing to improve their actual economic situation in 30+ years!"
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Nov 14, 2016 00:42
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Lightning Knight posted:White working class voters don't vote for us yet. In the meantime the Republicans are aggressively enacting voter suppression. We need to fix both of these problems. If you think one of them is undeserving you're going to keep losing elections. I don't, but that has nothing to do with winning minority votes. quote:I said I want a bullshitter who will enact the platform when they win. They don't have to lie, but they can't go for Hillary's schoolteacher act. Regular people don't like listening to policy dumps. They want to feel special because they heard a cool speech. So, not a bullshitter?
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Nov 14, 2016 00:42
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boner confessor posted:agreed, which is why they need to adopt a more realistic perspective and push for expanded welfare rather than engaging in pointless raindances hoping that high wage semiskilled jobs will fall from heaven I've never been against a stronger welfare state or mincome. Last time anything like that was suggested it was immediately scuttled by centrists as unrealistic though. Lightning Knight posted:I love that this is consistently the butthurt message you get out of this. "Please, white dudes, listen to minorities and help them gain leadership positions" has become "white straight men are banned from politics, you can never run for anything." We need hundreds of congresspeople, of course some of them are gonna be white dudes. We need thousands of leaders in the party, and some of them will be white dudes too. All I want is to not have another procession of fifty white dudes for President while we promise minorities we swear we care about you please vote for us. Why is that so much to ask? I already told you you're going to get bernie supporters hackles up because your phrasing is incredibly similar to what Hillary supporters were saying while shutting down any leftist suggestions. As far as I can tell, you'd be behind a bernie run if he was the strongest candidate available just like all us leftist will be behind Keith Ellison cause he's the strongest candidate for DNC chairman. IMO as a berniebro I'm behind a bernie run in 2020 if that's necessary, but hopefully we find someone else soon because even though I like bernie he's really really old. I think you'll find that a large majority of the dem left will line up against a candidate that will at least give us a bit of leftism regardless if sex, age, or race. So again I'm confused why you keep up with the "sit down and shut up white dems" line instead of something like "social and economic justice are both necessary".
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Nov 14, 2016 00:42
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No matter how horrifying, bleak, or dangerous this all gets. Just remember... It gets worse.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:43
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LOL! Yes, what the Democratic party needs right now is not a sincere actor but a better bullshit artist. That totally won't get called out in five seconds.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:45
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Three-Phase posted:No matter how horrifying, bleak, or dangerous this all gets.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:45
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Nov 14, 2016 00:45
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Mahoning posted:No kidding. I think the trap that Democrats face is that progressivism is considered unpalatable to minorities because of bernie bros or whatever, and so Dems keep ignoring the working class (which is increasingly minority) in favor of saying the words and not actually doing anything to make minorities' lives better in a meaningful way. Which, of course, means that Dems' handle on these voter blocks will keep slipping away while being replaced with nothing else. e: Though, tbh the Dem platform was a lot better than recent Dem policy in years. The messenger was just not considered trustworthy at all.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:45
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Lightning Knight posted:Hillary didn't even support full weed legalization, which was a huge, huge misplay. That alone probably could've secured us the Presidency and Senate. I doubt it. Hillary didn't lose because of anything she didn't support. She lost because an overwhelming number of voters didn't trust her and consequently, didn't vote. Any other Dem without those trust problems would have wrecked Trump. Hillary was a terrible candidate, but not because of platform (though TPP didn't help).
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Nov 14, 2016 00:46
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G-III posted:This frightens me most of all. Seeing this all go down and who's sitting on the seats of power makes me think we're in a modern day "germany in the 30s" scenario and it's time to flee for my life. I know, and what are we on, day four? I can not even imagine how terrifying this is for anybody of color.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:46
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Mulva posted:You'd be wrong. That's sort of the point of entrenched racism in politics, minorities are underrepresented in positions of power. That gives you a much smaller pool to draw on in the first place. Consider the sheer number of personal flaws that can sink a candidate, and it's almost impossible to find a good one period. Look at the Republicans this year. They effectively didn't have a single good candidate. The Democrats had Hillary and Bernie. That is to say, the most hated Democrat in modern history and someone who isn't even really a Democrat. Combine the problems with finding a good candidate with the smaller pool of minority politicians, AND the fact they have to fight against racism to be taken seriously? I mean, that's why we need to be seeking out and helping good minority candidates now, not a year out from the election. I think we could still find someone. Judakel posted:I don't, but that has nothing to do with winning minority votes. I already said we could do better outreach to Hispanic and Asian voters. Only pulling in 60% of their vote is weaksauce. I dunno. I think to a certain extent boiling down complex policy to nice speeches and soundbites requires bullshitting by definition. Perhaps you disagree. Condiv posted:I already told you you're going to get bernie supporters hackles up because your phrasing is incredibly similar to what Hillary supporters were saying while shutting down any leftist suggestions. As far as I can tell, you'd be behind a bernie run if he was the strongest candidate available just like all us leftist will be behind Keith Ellison cause he's the strongest candidate for DNC chairman. IMO as a berniebro I'm behind a bernie run in 2020 if that's necessary, but hopefully we find someone else soon because even though I like bernie he's really really old. Because I'm not talking about issues with that one, I'm talking about candidates. White straight male progressives are chomping at the bit to snap up every single leadership position in the party and that is rightfully threatening to minority voters. If we, the white progressives, go out of our way to get them a seat at the table and advance them as leaders of the party, we might earn their trust. But to do that we have to learn, as white straight dudes who have been validated our whole lives in our opinions, to stop and listen to them and their unique perspectives and experience. We have to be ready to back them up too, when people try and poo poo on them for not being legitimate enough as a minority.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:48
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G-III posted:This frightens me most of all. Seeing this all go down and who's sitting on the seats of power makes me think we're in a modern day "germany in the 30s" scenario and it's time to flee for my life. Trump doesn't even register on the radar compared to the historical Nazis.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:48
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steinrokkan posted:Trump doesn't even register on the radar compared to the historical Nazis. Banon liked the holocaust.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:49
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean it's not like that's the only thing I wrote in that big dumb post, much as the thread seems to have decided otherwise. We need more minority candidates but is that really an engaging platform in and of itself? Is it one that will get people to vote? I think Americans are a lot more focused on their circumstances at home and their day to day life rather than trying to reject racism with their vote. Now if there were a piece of policy that could serve as some sort of lightning rod than yeah sure, but the most we got in this realm is: better representations in terms of demographics, prison reform, end the drug war. These things the dems have been working on for a while but there is no clear messaging here, nothing to win a media war
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Nov 14, 2016 00:50
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I don't think Trump himself is for any of the policies he's proposed to people. He's in the midst of an ethical nightmare with running a company while at the same time running a country.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:50
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Kellyanne Conway says that Trump is considering suing Harry Reid for his statement on Trump's election. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-trump-1st-amendment
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Nov 14, 2016 00:51
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Please do not post smoothkobra ITT
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Nov 14, 2016 00:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Kellyanne Conway says that Trump is considering suing Harry Reid for his statement on Trump's election. Very presidential. Yugely so.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:52
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sports posted:I don't think Trump himself is for any of the policies he's proposed to people. He's in the midst of an ethical nightmare with running a company while at the same time running a country. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Kellyanne Conway says that Trump is considering suing Harry Reid for his statement on Trump's election. Lol if you think Trump cares about ethics.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:52
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Enkmar posted:We need more minority candidates but is that really an engaging platform in and of itself? Is it one that will get people to vote? No, it's not. The point that I had made before that post was that I think we can win running minority candidates on progressive populist platforms akin to Bernie. Focusing in on class doesn't scare the poo poo out of minorities if we bother to run a minority candidate so they see that we care about their issues too. Combine that with actually enacting poo poo that we can once we win and we have a formula for winning more than one or two elections in a row, in my opinion.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:52
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steinrokkan posted:Trump doesn't even register on the radar compared to the historical Nazis. Not yet.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:53
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Lightning Knight posted:I already said we could do better outreach to Hispanic and Asian voters. Only pulling in 60% of their vote is weaksauce. Apart from the overall disgust I feel at the notion of figuring out how to best manipulate minorities "for their own good", 60% is pretty drat good.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:53
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steinrokkan posted:Trump doesn't even register on the radar compared to the historical Nazis. Trump doesn't but his cabinet who will be running the show sure as poo poo does. Luckily I'm up in the NW where I'm a 3 hours drive away from vancouver, B.C. You have these people now who will have access to prism data and who want to create a new house committee on "un-american" activities. I'm legit wondering if fleeing the country is something I have to do now just to stay alive.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:54
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You know, I always thought that being outed as an actual anti-semite in america means that you're life is over and you have no more political prospects. Guess anythings loving possible in 2016!
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Nov 14, 2016 00:54
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Judakel posted:Apart from the overall disgust I feel at the notion of figuring out how to best manipulate minorities "for their own good", 60% is pretty drat good. Um, what? I'm not sure why you think we would be manipulating them. There are actual issues that specifically affect those communities that we could address, from immigration reform to affirmative action, that would help to get them to the table. I am not advocating lying to them, nor for that matter to working class white people. I actually think we should attempt to offer them something to vote for us, and there's plenty of things to offer all oppressed groups if we're willing to fight for it. Edit: ^ I see you haven't heard of (((globalists))) or how virulently anti-Semitic the alt-right is then.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:55
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Judakel posted:Apart from the overall disgust I feel at the notion of figuring out how to best manipulate minorities "for their own good", 60% is pretty drat good. When you're losing ~40% of them to a party that actively and openly wants to poo poo on them from on high, it's not great.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:55
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, that's why we need to be seeking out and helping good minority candidates now, not a year out from the election. I think we could still find someone. We should definitely get more minority representation in the dem party. I remember hearing about some latinx staffers in Hillary's campaign talking about how they had to speak in Spanish about turnout plans cause otherwise the white staffers and leaders would start getting the vapors and try to stifle them That being said white candidates should still be an option if they're strong on the issues. We need to be careful of the effect where given two similarly strong candidates we choose whitey (or we choose whitey over the strong candidate  ) but white candidates should still be in play
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Nov 14, 2016 00:57
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G-III posted:You have these people now who will have access to prism data and who want to create a new house committee on "un-american" activities.  Who let Republicans get access to the phantom zone?
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Nov 14, 2016 00:57
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Bannon maybe isn't a literal "Nazi" but he is far-right as gently caress. It really isn't a joke. The rule of law will probably hold but yeah you now have the far-right in the White House.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:58
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Eugene V. Dabs posted:When you're losing ~40% of them to a party that actively and openly wants to poo poo on them from on high, it's not great. There are a lot of Hispanics that aren't in the same boat as Mexicans/Nicaraguans/etc. with regards to how they are treated in this country. You're throwing them all in the same basket and it is a lot more nuanced than that. Ditto for Asians, too.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:58
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Kellyanne Conway says that Trump is considering suing Harry Reid for his statement on Trump's election. Lol, like Reid gives a gently caress.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:58
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AHAHAHAH OF COURSE http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-bondi-trump-transition
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Nov 14, 2016 00:59
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Lightning Knight posted:Um, what? I'm not sure why you think we would be manipulating them. There are actual issues that specifically affect those communities that we could address, from immigration reform to affirmative action, that would help to get them to the table. I am not advocating lying to them, nor for that matter to working class white people. I actually think we should attempt to offer them something to vote for us, and there's plenty of things to offer all oppressed groups if we're willing to fight for it. Because you've been talking about doing just that in this very thread? Manipulation does not have to involve lying, but you're still eager to do it.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:59
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Clip-On Fedora posted:https://medium.com/soapbox-dc/democrats-are-about-to-plunge-into-a-civil-war-e2ac6f65eb48#.o9809irrm You should read his twitter. He pretty much is a TNC wannabe (with none of the talent), also much more overtly pro neoliberal.
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Nov 14, 2016 01:00
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Condiv posted:We should definitely get more minority representation in the dem party. I remember hearing about some latinx staffers in Hillary's campaign talking about how they had to speak in Spanish about turnout plans cause otherwise the white staffers and leaders would start getting the vapors and try to stifle them I would argue that it behooves us to work to make sure there's good minority candidates in every primary. They might not be the best and they might not win but if mysteriously every single time the best candidate is still a white dude we should be disappointed. If a white dude is the best then a white dude is a best, but I'd argue that we should be making sure these things are competitive. The thing about Hillary completely flailing on Hispanic outreach made my blood boil. I had really thought Hispanic people didn't care enough to vote against Trump. Nope! Turns out we just suck at talking in Spanish.
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Nov 14, 2016 01:01
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Judakel posted:There are a lot of Hispanics that aren't in the same boat as Mexicans/Nicaraguans/etc. with regards to how they are treated in this country. You're throwing them all in the same basket and it is a lot more nuanced than that. Ditto for Asians, too. Considering that literal white supremacists are part of Trump's transition team, only the whitest of hispanics (read: Ted Cruz) are not being actively targeted by the Republican party.
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Nov 14, 2016 01:02
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the popes toes posted:What's good for Trump is good for the country. There is not and never has been a reason to support the Green party outside of having someone to protest vote for. They're a pretty useless organization since they have no infrastructure to bring voters to their program, they just kinda show up every four years to do some performance art. Democratic Socialists of America is pretty ok and their membership is starting to explode in the wake of Tuesday. Plus they coordinate with Democratic candidates a lot to pass leftist reforms and legislation so it's not like you're utterly beholden to them and can't support Democratic candidates. Their leadership varies a lot based on the chapter so you might get an ineffectual liberal grandpa or a young hardworking and organized activist
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Nov 14, 2016 01:02
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G-III posted:Trump doesn't but his cabinet who will be running the show sure as poo poo does. Luckily I'm up in the NW where I'm a 3 hours drive away from vancouver, B.C. You don't know much about what the Nazis actually thought and did if you think that.
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Nov 14, 2016 01:03
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Judakel posted:Because you've been talking about doing just that in this very thread? Manipulation does not have to involve lying, but you're still eager to do it. How so? When did I argue that we shouldn't deliver on issues that matter to people? Are you mad because I said we need someone who can bullshit still? What do you think "Yes We Can" and "Hope and Change" were? Bullshit! loving awesome bullshit! The problem wasn't that, that was bullshit, the problem was that he didn't deliver on a concrete platform underlying the bullshit. That's where we failed.
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Nov 14, 2016 01:03
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Lightning Knight posted:I would argue that it behooves us to work to make sure there's good minority candidates in every primary. They might not be the best and they might not win but if mysteriously every single time the best candidate is still a white dude we should be disappointed. If a white dude is the best then a white dude is a best, but I'd argue that we should be making sure these things are competitive. Well its because just like union members of all races, minorities are there for neoliberals to get votes from, fallowed by them not doing poo poo for you.
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Nov 14, 2016 01:03
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