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mango sentinel posted:Clinton was a flawed but incredibly qualified candidate who ran a great traditional campaign with fatal blind spots against an idiot with billions in free airtime to make empty promises that people were desperate to hear. That makes no sense. She was a bad candidate who would have made a qualified administrator. But because such a bad retail politician, she could not' beat the most unpopular candidate in modern history. Bernie would have whupped Trump's rear end.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Reminder: Somewhere in Russia a bunch of government hackers are starting to seriously regret some things.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:29
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Yeah...  I talked about this a bit in the Rural Poverty thread, but I work with the rural poor a lot, so if you're interested in the mindset, here's some more words. They're mostly poor and beaten down. They're reminded everyday of what their towns used to look like. They deal with a lot of the same poo poo that poor city folks deal with, all the minor stupid inconveniences like car trouble, getting dumb forms filled out for jobs and taxes, going to the doctor for minor injuries that are inadequately treated, the boredom of having little to do because so much costs money and is far away... The lack of literacy is why I get sad when I see people recommend that folks just look up her policies on the web. Some of them seriously might not be capable of doing it, or understanding the words on the screen. They literally need it explained to them, in simpler terminology. They might have trouble reading the McDonald's menu. I understand the "Ivory Tower College Educated Liberal" stereotype that gets bandied about by the right (disclaimer: I have a master's degree, I've read Wallace, Pynchon, Derrida, Foucault, etc., I wear a sportcoat with suede elbow patched to work everyday... basically I resemble this remark). It hurts like hell when someone who is smarter than you makes fun of you, someone you know despises your lifestyle and existence, who completely devalues your world and the people in it, who'd rather you moved to the city and lived in a rat trap, rather than out in the country where you're "free". That Clinton lied, she lied about emails and stuff. Trump's a businessman, so he knows about money. How are those assholes going to say she's the better candidate when she's a liar? She lied about Benghazi, Sean Hannity said so. A bunch of criminals got shot by cops, and the liberals just want to let them go? Why'd they get arrested if they weren't criminals? And this can make them hard as hell to talk to about politics or issues, because the reasoning is very simple, their minds are rather quickly made up, and they have a ton of biases they don't even know they have. They don't get the difference between "A Racist" and "Being Racist". They're poor, and no one helps them, so why should other poor people get treated better? It's not logic I agree with, but I can understand how they think. They have a very different worldview. They struggle to keep what dignity they can. They're a prideful bunch. Almost every guy I help fillout an online job application starts out by telling me how good he is at something else, be it house-building, wood working, car repair, anything, and that's why he never got around to learning the computer. My partner has already had to yell at some new tutors under her who were talking about how their students were only the way they were because they were lazy and stupid; I'm sure you can imagine how that attitude from an educator can make you want to avoid learning. But folks can be brought around. It takes time, it takes being a part of the community, it takes learning what they respond to. I told this story before, but I'll tell it again: Some richer folks in town were "just asking question" about the free lunch program my library was running. We give free lunch to any kid who comes through the door, no questions asked, and they were curious how many we gave out, how many were really poor, how much did it cost, that sort of thing. I replied with a few statistics, but also followed up with "and it don't seem Christian to let people go hungry, you know?" And the conversation ended right there with them nodding and looking a little sheepish, because how can you argue with Matthew 25:35?
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Nov 14, 2016 21:30
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Flip Yr Wig posted:Believe it or not, it's helpful to look at the history of fascism when your nation is facing it. This is a very interesting take after the DNC ignored a populist upswelling and instead of capitalizing on it, began to demonize the disenfranchised and send them running into the arms of a right wing ideologue who was more than happy to blame their economic problems on otherized groups.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:30
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Business Gorillas posted:Can I call "woke" liberals trying to invoke my people's industrialized slaughter to get cheap points on the internet cultural appropriation? Please do. They need to stop using shields for being supporters of an ideology that disenhearted so many people from voting.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:31
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Nah see, now we have to appeal to racists because Clintonistas failed so terribly at their job. If they hadn't failed so badly, we wouldn't be here.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:32
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Business Gorillas posted:This is a very interesting take after the DNC ignored a populist upswelling and instead of capitalizing on it, began to demonize the disenfranchised and send them running into the arms of a right wing ideologue who was more than happy to blame their economic problems on otherized groups. Lol if you ever thought the Dems were competent.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:32
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Reminder: Yyyyyup. In CSPAM a few months ago, there was a Trump supporter named No Mans Land, who vehemently insisted that Trump was a non-interventionist, and that's the reason why Dems should vote for him. God I wish I could laugh in his face right now.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:32
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It's official:  Ellison is running for DNC chair. Let's hope he doesn't sell out 
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Nov 14, 2016 21:32
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Does Bolton seriously get confirmed? Are there not three Republicans willing to stop that travesty?
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Nov 14, 2016 21:33
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Business Gorillas posted:It could be that every suggestion of working people is a dogwhistle or it could be that the term "working man" could mean "people that have to work for a living", ymmv. There is no logical reason why the party of inclusion can't be the party of "the working man" any more than it can't be the party of isolationism and "the working man".
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Nov 14, 2016 21:33
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I empathize. The truth is, I honestly care a lot about the working white poor. I grew up in area not that far removed from the type of stuff you're talking about. It's not that I hate the white working class. It's that I'm afraid of them. And minorities around the country are too, and as you can see, there are good reasons to be.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:35
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Crowsbeak posted:Please do. They need to stop using shields for being supporters of an ideology that disenhearted so many people from voting. I was mostly asking in case there was some sort of ridiculous woke-twitter caveat, sort of like how someone saying "gently caress white people" isn't racist but is in fact just prejudiced which is better because
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Nov 14, 2016 21:35
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Other Fun John Bolton Fact: He believes that Honduras is actively receiving Islamic terrorists from Iran and sending them to the United States through the Mexican border. The government of Mexico is either "partially complicit or incapable of stopping the flow of Jihadist fighters." Note: Honduras and Mexico do not share a border. When asked about this, he responded that the jungles of Belize are essentially unregulated that the Iranian agents go through there. The distance is relatively small and there is no border patrol there, so it doesn't matter that they don't technically share a border. This man will be our next Secretary of State.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:35
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Pollyanna posted:Lol if you ever thought the Dems were competent. I would argue they were incredibly competent. They were able to fleece the public and stuff the pockets of the people who they actually represented for almost 30 years.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:37
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Business Gorillas posted:It could be that every suggestion of working people is a dogwhistle or it could be that the term "working man" could mean "people that have to work for a living", ymmv. it is extremely racist to not imply that black people don't work
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Nov 14, 2016 21:37
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Majorian posted:Yyyyyup. D&D response to Trump supporter on 11/14/2016: Laugh in his face And the world corncobbed...
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Nov 14, 2016 21:37
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It really is astounding how you can count on one hand the people on the right who seem to care there's going to be an anti-Semite in the Trump WH.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:38
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Yeah... Growing up among such people, and still having family there, 100%
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Nov 14, 2016 21:38
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:- He provided anonymous testimony that there were WMDs in Iraq, but failed to disclose it and then cited his own anonymous testimony as "expert opinion" that Iraq had WMDs. Hahahahaha wow I hadn't heard that one. Though it doesn't surprise me, that's pretty much what Cheney did by planting stories in newspapers and then citing them.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:40
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Business Gorillas posted:This is a very interesting take after the DNC ignored a populist upswelling and instead of capitalizing on it, began to demonize the disenfranchised and send them running into the arms of a right wing ideologue who was more than happy to blame their economic problems on otherized groups. That's not actually what happened, though. Trump didn't really turn out a very impressive tally of voters.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:40
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Volcott posted:It really is astounding how you can count on one hand the people on the right who seem to care there's going to be an anti-Semite in the Trump WH. Is it really astounding? The current fake story making the rounds in the conservative bubble is that George Soros the renegade Jew is paying people to protest trump
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Nov 14, 2016 21:40
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mango sentinel posted:Does Bolton seriously get confirmed? Are there not three Republicans willing to stop that travesty? Here are the Republicans that opposed his nomination: Peter Fitzgerald (R-IL) Arlen Specter (R-PA) Jim Bunning (R-KY) Ben Campbell (R-CO) Richard Lugar (R-IN) Notice a trend? None of them are in Congress anymore. All other sitting Republicans supported him. Democrats unanimously opposed. That was why he was recess appointed, "Moderates" like Snow and Collins supported him.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:41
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Lightning Knight posted:I empathize. The truth is, I honestly care a lot about the working white poor. I grew up in area not that far removed from the type of stuff you're talking about. Anybody who is desperate, ashamed, and looked down upon enough is going to be dangerous, Latino and black working class are no different. They can be united by common interests however. WWC, BWC, LWC, whatever: lots of people hate their bosses, hate being ignored, hate being thought of as stupid. Their interests can be appealed to and they can hold on to a shred of dignity through the (rightful) demonization of the rentiers who are ratfucking them. Just need to give them the right villain (ie not BLM or Muslims)
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Nov 14, 2016 21:41
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gently caress
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Nov 14, 2016 21:41
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Radbot posted:D&D response to Trump supporter on 11/14/2016: Laugh in his face The only ones corncobbing are those who thought Trump was going to be a non-interventionist, and was going to bring back their jobs. 
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Nov 14, 2016 21:42
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1337JiveTurkey posted:There is no logical reason why the party of inclusion can't be the party of "the working man" any more than it can't be the party of isolationism and "the working man". The party of inclusion was only for it insofar as it didn't inconvenience their comfy white lifestyles. Reminder that the entirety of the civil rights legislation explicitly went after Jim Crow and enshrined the class-based segregation north of the Mason-Dixon.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Here are the Republicans that opposed his nomination: Yeah, but it helps that Bolton is also personally hated by a lot of folks in Washington. He's a really unlikable POS.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:43
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-united-parcel-strike-idUSKBN1391R2 Speaking of the working class. Air maintenance workers at UPS, represented by Teamster Local 2727, have voted 98% to 2% to strike. The breaking point in negotiations was UPS' demanding major concessions in healthcare plans which would result in a massive spike in retiree contributions for health-care costs.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:43
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menino posted:Anybody who is desperate, ashamed, and looked down upon enough is going to be dangerous, Latino and black working class are no different. They can be united by common interests however. Or Mexican people. It's not a nice feeling to be told that your father and grandmother never belonged in this country, and how dare they undercut the wages of deserving American workers, seeking a better life.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:43
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Business Gorillas posted:The party of inclusion was only for it insofar as it didn't inconvenience their comfy white lifestyles. Oh bullshit. The Dems managed to sell this balance between inclusiveness and economic populism to pretty significant effect in 2008, and they don't need someone who is oratorically touched by God like Obama to sell it again. Lightning Knight posted:Or Mexican people. It's not a nice feeling to be told that your father and grandmother never belonged in this country, and how dare they undercut the wages of deserving American workers, seeking a better life. Especially since a lot of their families have been here a lot longer than the whiteys.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:44
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Lightning Knight posted:Or Mexican people. It's not a nice feeling to be told that your father and grandmother never belonged in this country, and how dare they undercut the wages of deserving American workers, seeking a better life. Absolutely. Give them dignity (listen to what they're saying) and give them a figure who took that dignity from them (motivation to do something about what they just said). The liberal narrative of victims without victimizers is, hopefully, DOA for the Democrats going forward. I firmly believe that talking about the "billionaire class"/"ruling class" was 100% right on for Bernie (there are something like 500 billionaires in the US, they are not that powerful but make for a good story)
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Nov 14, 2016 21:45
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Volcott posted:It really is astounding how you can count on one hand the people on the right who seem to care there's going to be an anti-Semite in the Trump WH. "Anti-semitism is over because HOLOCAUST" has been a thing for over 70 years
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Nov 14, 2016 21:46
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John Bolton as SoS so be prepared for us to pull out of the UN/actual war with Iran
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Nov 14, 2016 21:46
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If we get into another war, I don't think our national debt can handle that. Will the man with 11 bankruptices declare bankruptcy on our nation? You know, a sick part of me wants to see that so I can an ex-friend and go "Remember when you defended his bankruptices?"
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Nov 14, 2016 21:47
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Majorian posted:That's not actually what happened, though. Trump didn't really turn out a very impressive tally of voters. Uh, the amount of voters he turned out for "burn it all down" in the face of "business as usual" is pretty loving impressive, thank you very much. Only in Clinton world do you not get credit for beating "the most qualified candidate in history". Majorian posted:The only ones corncobbing are those who thought Trump was going to be a non-interventionist, and was going to bring back their jobs. If you thought that, you're just as dumb and misinformed as you were on November 7th. They know poo poo's not getting better, they just want to take you down with them. Radbot fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 21:47
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Yeah... This is very nicely written. You could probably interest online left magazines in this article (expanded a bit) and it would be better than having it lost in page 497 of a thread on a forum of no particular significance.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:48
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Business Gorillas posted:"Anti-semitism is over because HOLOCAUST" has been a thing for over 70 years Not a great way to get AIPAC buxx though. Radbot posted:Uh, the amount of voters he turned out for "burn it all down" in the face of "business as usual" is pretty loving impressive, thank you very much. It's the lowest total of any major party candidate since 2004 actually, op.
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Nov 14, 2016 21:48
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:John Bolton as SoS so be prepared for us to pull out of the UN/actual war with Iran Do you think Trump will wait for open revolt from his base to start a war with Iran or will he just do it right out the gate?
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Nov 14, 2016 21:49
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:John Bolton as SoS so be prepared for us to pull out of the UN/actual war with Iran oh good, and here i was worried he might actually stick to his anti-neocon guns
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Nov 14, 2016 21:49
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