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QUACKTASTIC posted:Heaps of restaurants around Sydney exclusively hire international students, paying as little as $7/hr cash, and the students are desperate for those jobs because the 20hr limit means they have no alternate way of legally working. Same in Brisbane. I know someone who got asked to work a one hour shift with no notice or get fired. But yes, unions have gone too far.
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Nov 15, 2016 00:17
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Cartoon posted:Well there goes your credibility. Your source? The Ataris comment was hyperbole. My actual point is that businesses should be the ones with the responsibility to deal with the labour force given, and if that means they have to do whatever they can to coax people into doing lovely farm work then so be it. That they have access to willing temporary workers who are happy to earn whatever pay on offer distorts this significantly. quote:As we have established time after time there is always more to the detail than this forum is willing or able to consider. That is why the guiding principles are so important. Even if there are unintended consequences knowing where you are going and why is a far more worthy aim than the current "Deregulation will fix everything (Except the labour market and unions - Regulate the gently caress out of those guys)". There's nothing wrong with that. I never said there was. Sometimes me speaking in a dry tone and talking economics can have the side effect of advocating for a position and the only position I'm advocating is that illegal slave or exploited overseas workers should stop. All the rest is just tying cause and effect. Personally I wouldn't mind if farms had to be creative and had no choice but to find local labour to help them out, even if it means offering lots of incentives and perks.
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Nov 15, 2016 03:25
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Les Affaires posted:The Ataris comment was hyperbole. My actual point is that businesses should be the ones with the responsibility to deal with the labour force given, and if that means they have to do whatever they can to coax people into doing lovely farm work then so be it. That they have access to willing temporary workers who are happy to earn whatever pay on offer distorts this significantly. hahahahahaha wow
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Nov 15, 2016 03:36
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Except in rare cases where it isn't available (bananas), once the price goes up enough people just buy imported food. The farm sector is already shrinking at a pretty rapid rate, I can't see the government doing anything to accelerate that. People who have lived in the city their whole lives and have never even seen a cow still have a cultural attachment to farming and farmers and care about them in a way they don't care about other industries. Look at the kind of attention the dairy industry got when milk prices dropped. No other industry would have even rated a mention in the news, let alone people proposing levies and special brands of milk to help out the noble selfless farmers. Intentionally increasing the cost of labour, and thus decreasing the viability of the farm business, would be political suicide.
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Nov 15, 2016 03:39
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open24hours posted:Except in rare cases where it isn't available (bananas), once the price goes up enough people just buy imported food. The farm sector is already shrinking at a pretty rapid rate, I can't see the government doing anything to accelerate that. Pretty much, which is why this new round of protectionism is dangerous for the political parties because they have to be seen to do something while not jeopardising the farming industry and therefore a viable source of votes. I'd argue that Labor has less to lose by running a protectionist line than the Coalition, at least if the Nationals still want rural votes. Big business has as much to gain from cheap foreign labour as farmers do from backpackers.
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Nov 15, 2016 03:46
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No party could easily introduce protectionist policies without all sorts of fallout. It's a complete non-starter. The best they can hope to do is invest in new types of farming that play to our strengths. Things like Sundrop Farms are a good start, but we need hundreds of companies with that kind of vision, and the government needs to do what it can to help them get established.
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Nov 15, 2016 03:55
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It might be easier for farms to pay workers a living wage if Coles/Woolies/Aldi and the other distributors weren't squeezing the poo poo out of the growers
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Nov 15, 2016 04:06
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What do you expect them to do? Coles and Woolworths are trying to make money, they don't care about farmers and if they did the board would be sacked. I mean I don't see what kind of regulation could prevent that kind of thing from happening?
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Nov 15, 2016 04:09
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open24hours posted:I mean I don't see what kind of regulation could prevent that kind of thing from happening? full communism now
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Nov 15, 2016 04:13
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The Peccadillo posted:That is not how international trade deals work at all. The Trans Pacific Partnership is gone. Somehow I don't think that people who go to the effort of stitching up entire regions for profit are going to give up on all of those TPP goodies. Think of the TPP as an ambit claim that almost paid off. They can't have the whole package so they'll take another angle and try to get some parts implemented. Because lol if you think they're dropping it. Les Affaires posted:The Ataris comment was hyperbole. My actual point is that businesses should be the ones with the responsibility to deal with the labour force given, and if that means they have to do whatever they can to coax people into doing lovely farm work then so be it. That they have access to willing temporary workers who are happy to earn whatever pay on offer distorts this significantly. Surely it's a diminishing rate of returns. There isn't a steady flow of The milk industry is often portrayed as a struggling mom and pop operation where this is increasingly not the case. But those who are, have had to drastically reduce their herds and there's been a steady drip-feed of news about this for a year now. Add a dollop of Ooh Big Mean Supermarkets and you've got clickbait gold. This had Sydney shock jocks behind it, no wonder it got attention. But all we hear about is the milk. The cheese producers are in just as precarious a position, are highly capitalized, and dependent on the volume of milk output. They depend also on the markup of more specialized cheeses, which in turn (according to here) depends on the viability of small retail (no numbers but a "significant proportion"). The food industry is in a lose-lose situation here. The supermarkets penny-pinching for profit will kill the golden goose, the costs are stubbornly resisting even the latest technology, and the politicians are the roos in the headlights.
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Nov 15, 2016 04:15
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Donald Trump's gift to Australia worth billions in the long run As we sit in the foggy aftermath of one of history's most extraordinary elections one thing is clear enough – Australia just received an enormous shot of financial adrenalin. We are accidental collateral winners from the Republican victory in the US. Call it the Trump gift and it's worth billions. Trump's policy centrepiece to spend $1 trillion to rebuild America's infrastructure signals a massive increase in demand for commodities like iron ore and coal, which Australia produces. And since declaring he was set to "fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals", the prices of these commodities have taken off like a rocket. The price of Iron ore – our biggest export – has soared to almost US$75 a tonne which is almost double where it was at the start of the year. In the past few days since the days it has gained more than 8 per cent. According to Australian government's budget papers, the effect in 2017/18 of a change in the iron ore price alone is huge, with every $US10 a tonne change impacting tax receipts by $3.9 billion and nominal GDP by $13.4 billion. In the latest budget the Turnbull government had factored in a price of $US55 a tonne up from the previous forecast of $US39. If these price levels are sustained it will a positive king-hit to the budget deficit. Not in its wildest dreams would it had expected the current price levels. Coal which had already risen steeply this year also got a fresh tail-wind and is up again strongly with the contract price more than doubling this year and the spot price moving into the stratosphere. Until last week many of the best commodities experts were tipping the price of iron ore and coal would move down by the end of this calendar year and stay there in 2017. The unexpected Trump victory has turned the expectations for commodities prices upside-down. Even though Australia doesn't supply the US with coal and iron ore, the fact that the global demand for these commodities will rise thanks to Trump's big infrastructure plans, means the global prices will rise. Just how much demand will grow is unclear at this stage so its expectations and sentiment in the futures markets that are responsible for the prices soaring. Further turbocharging the expectation of increased demand is the fact that China is also undertaking an infrastructure building program, One Belt, One Road, to boost its own economy. The commodities bulls are predicting the two countries are now set to start of the mother of all infrastructure building competitions. And in the space of only a few days since the US election the fear of a massive trade war between the two largest economies in the world appears to have eased significantly. Realistically Trump's ability to turn back the clock on global trade would be limited if it resulted in huge price hikes for US consumers on goods that they have become accustomed to getting cheaply from China. And even if Trump places imposed tariffs on goods imported from China, the response from the Middle Kingdom could be to further stimulate its own economy. From an economic perspective there are some negatives for Australia not the least of which is having to ditch the Trans-Pacific Partnership which over time could have delivered new markets to our beef, wheat and dairy producers. But these will be easily outweighed by the benefits of improvements in mineral commodity prices. And for investors in Australian commodity companies the past few days has been a bonanza. Fortescue Metals has risen from $5.22 to $6.17 over the past few days. BHP Billiton shareholders have seen the stock spike from $22 to around $25 and Rio Tinto is similarly strong. 
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Nov 15, 2016 04:27
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Anidav posted:Donald Trump's gift to
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Nov 15, 2016 04:35
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Sure would be a shame to be living around Perth in the next few years then wouldn't it...
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Nov 15, 2016 04:36
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I'm no economics expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm worried that our economy is closely tied to America and if their economy tanks under Trump, we go with them.
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Nov 15, 2016 04:37
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Trump will inject billions into the local economy as they use Australia as a staging base for their war against China. This is actually a good thing.
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Nov 15, 2016 04:45
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Tokamak posted:Trump will inject billions into the local economy as they use Australia as a staging base for their war against China. This is actually a good thing. Heck they're installing a missile silo right here at Fort Scratchley! I'm super-pumped for the jobs it's going to bring!
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Nov 15, 2016 04:47
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Anidav posted:The price of Iron ore – our biggest export – has soared to almost US$75 a tonne which is almost double where it was at the start of the year. In the past few days since the days it has gained more than 8 per cent. Wow, sure would be nice to have a mining tax right about now.
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Nov 15, 2016 05:00
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open24hours posted:Except in rare cases where it isn't available (bananas), once the price goes up enough people just buy imported food. The farm sector is already shrinking at a pretty rapid rate, I can't see the government doing anything to accelerate that. http://www.nff.org.au/farm-facts.html quote:Australian farmers continue to face the challenge of declining terms of trade in agriculture, yet remain internationally competitive through efficiencies and productivity growth. The growth in the farm sector has increased steadily over the 30 year period from 1974-75 to 2003-04 at an average rate of 2.8 percent, consistently out-performing other sectors. In more recent times, agricultural productivity growth has slowed to 1 percent per annum, illustrating the need for an increased spend on research and development to ensure the industry can meet the food and fibre needs of the growing world population. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1301.0~2012~Main%20Features~Farming%20in%20Australia~207 quote:Over the period 2000–01 to 2010–11, the Agriculture, forestry and fishing industry recorded an average annual growth rate in labour productivity of 5.3%, the highest of all industries (Australian System of National Accounts, 2010–11, 5204.0).  Grain exports (ABS-5302.0) Contracting like a woman in labour. If there was an award for being unambiguously wrong it is certainly yours. Cartoon fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 05:12
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Cartoon posted:If there was an award for being unambiguously wrong it is certainly yours. drat, my title
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Nov 15, 2016 05:17
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Cartoon posted:Now I note you don't include any actual metric so have some wiggle room for a claim to have been right but: Yes the value of production and productivity is going up, but that's due to consolidation in the sector. The number of farms and the number of people working in agriculture is declining. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agric...s-A2546069J.svg This is what matters. People who live in communities reliant on farming don't care that productivity is increasing, they care that population is declining. open24hours fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 05:25
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This might be a crazy idea, but how about amending the corporations act to include a responsibility for directors/boards to act sustainably in addition to maximising profit? I mean that also should resolve issues like the corporate raiding of Dick Smith Electronics where they acted for as much short term gain as possible and destroyed a business. However much like a lot of economics I know very little about this. Is it even feasible?
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Nov 15, 2016 05:31
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hooman posted:This might be a crazy idea, but how about amending the corporations act to include a responsibility for directors/boards to act sustainably in addition to maximising profit? okay, now define assessable and enforcable metrics for sustainability
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Nov 15, 2016 05:42
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open24hours posted:Yes the value of production and productivity is going up, but that's due to consolidation in the sector. The number of farms and the number of people working in agriculture is declining.
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Nov 15, 2016 06:18
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People don't want to live in dying communities and they vote? The decline in numbers of farmers is seen as good thing by economists, but most other people lament it, as they have been doing since the beginning of recorded history.
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Nov 15, 2016 06:22
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Cartoon posted:Thought you might try this as an out. The decline in the number of people employed per quantity of agricultural produce made has been declining for all of recorded history. Most people think this is a good thing. And I'm not exactly convinced that more foreign workers being paid crap money and being chained down on the farm is a panacea for Australia's rampant urbanisation, also something that has been going on steadily since colonisation. So what actually was your point? I'm assuming it's that politically it is a fraught issue because on the one hand worker exploitation is incredibly lovely and illegal but on the other if it stops then the proportion of people living in the regions will decline at an even faster rate than it already is due to accelerating the consolidation, and the people who live in these regions vote, and they vote for whoever will promise to stop it.
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Nov 15, 2016 06:24
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This is still an extremely common view.
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Nov 15, 2016 06:26
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open24hours posted:People don't want to live in dying communities and they vote? 'Most people' think that not toiling in the fields from sun up to sun down is a good thing, not just economists. How does this relate to the issue of foreign workers? Are more foreign workers pushing people off the land or into rural poverty? Are foreign workers depressing already contracting rural communities by reducing the wages for people in the community? All of this would seem to speak to greatly reducing the number of 457 visas and the extent of backpacker labour to help support rural economies and yet here we are.
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Nov 15, 2016 06:29
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People have a romantic view of farming that isn't entirely compatible with reality. This shouldn't surprise you. Seasonal workers and backpackers don't come in on 457 visas, and if the visas they do come in on were restricted it would dramatically accelerate the decline of rural communities that are dependent on them, as the cost of production would exceed the value of the produce.
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Nov 15, 2016 06:33
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Cartoon posted:I knew I was going to regret this. lmao
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Nov 15, 2016 06:40
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quote:There are thousands of foreign workers employed on Australian farms with either short-term tourist visas or student visas. Those on short-term visas are not allowed to work, while those with student visas can work up to 20 hours per week. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-15/fruit-supplier-to-coles-woolworths-using-illegal-foreign-workers/8023570 This is the context of this conversation. Are you are say that we need to keep doing this of rural Australia is dead? I additionally note http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/SkilledMigration Rural workers DO come here on 457 visas. What is going on at the moment is a completely contradictory set of cruel and inhuman policies that serve nobody but the shareholders of Coles and Woolworths. Yay?
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Nov 15, 2016 06:49
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That kind of thing should be cracked down on, yes. Doing so will send a lot of farmers broke, which is politically unpopular, so it's not likely to happen. Skilled rural workers come in on 457s, not fruit pickers. open24hours fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 06:56
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Anidav posted:
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Nov 15, 2016 07:14
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Starshark posted:Heck they're installing a missile silo right here at Fort Scratchley! I'm super-pumped for the jobs it's going to bring! Hahaha surely BAE or whoever will just bring in whoever's cheapest right?
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Nov 15, 2016 07:21
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Impressive stuff when "Other" is leading preferred leader polls for both major parties, she must be a real go-getter. https://twitter.com/ghostwhovotes/status/798410821189730308 https://twitter.com/ghostwhovotes/status/798410411741683712
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Nov 15, 2016 07:41
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Clearly it's time for me to run for prime minister. Polls-wise, it'd be hard for me to do worse.
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Nov 15, 2016 07:51
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Starshark posted:Clearly it's time for me to run for prime minister. Polls-wise, it'd be hard for me to do worse. That or the cricket team.
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Nov 15, 2016 08:18
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You Am I posted:That or the cricket team. Do both, if you managed a century you'd be PM within the week
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Nov 15, 2016 08:42
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open24hours posted:What do you expect them to do? Coles and Woolworths are trying to make money, they don't care about farmers and if they did the board would be sacked. price floors?
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Nov 15, 2016 10:00
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why don't more farmers form co-ops?
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Nov 15, 2016 10:07
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starkebn posted:why don't more farmers form co-ops? They do, don't they? Australia has one of the world's highest rates of co-op membership. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 10:08
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