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Acebuckeye13 posted:The auto bailout was a good policy that saved a tremendous number of working-class jobs, and Obama won handily in Michigan in part because of that policy. You really do not know what you're talking about here. Ok, keep on drinking the obama koolaid. You have to weigh policies that were implemented over other policies that could've been implemented (and not just ones that were on the table). Was the bailout better than nothing? Sure, but compared to other solutions, it was fundamentally unfair and people were left behind. It's the same with the ACA: was it better than nothing? Sure, but health care costs are still rising out of control and quality of care is lower than other wealthier countries. Eventually people wake up to the economic reality.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:08 |
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# ? May 28, 2024 16:23 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:Ok, keep on drinking the obama koolaid. You have to weigh policies that were implemented over other policies that could've been implemented (and not just ones that were on the table). Was the bailout better than nothing? Sure, but compared to other solutions, it was fundamentally unfair and people were left behind. It's the same with the ACA: was it better than nothing? Sure, but health care costs are still rising out of control and quality of care is lower than other wealthier countries. Eventually people wake up to the economic reality. What did we choose not to use that wasn't on the table?
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:28 |
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Veskit posted:What did we choose not to use that wasn't on the table? Bailing out the pension funds. Capping auto executive pay. Not negotiating below poverty salaries for new union workers. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/16b-of-bank-bailout-went-to-execs/
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:34 |
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M_Gargantua posted:Trump proved that was an actual useful strategy. So I don't see why not. Un-truth as a weapon. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 16, 2016 |
# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:35 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:Bailing out the pension funds. Capping auto executive pay. Not negotiating below poverty salaries for new union workers. We did bail out pension funds, it's called qunantitative easing, aka the bailout. Your first attempt in teaching me new ways of income distribution was literally to say we should have bailed out the banks. I want to make this clear how little you know what the gently caress you're talking about when you throw a hissy fit and then explain to me we should bail out the banks. Lol you dumb gently caress.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:50 |
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I'll simplify it. Pension funds are run by financial institutions, and I dunno if you were around at the time but they had a bit of a problem... with their assets, IE, things like pension funds.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:53 |
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Veskit posted:We did bail out pension funds, it's called qunantitative easing, aka the bailout. Bernie would have fixed all of these problems by now.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:54 |
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Veskit posted:We did bail out pension funds, it's called qunantitative easing, aka the bailout. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-05/detroit-pension-cuts-from-bankruptcy-prompt-cries-of-betrayal
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 22:58 |
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Veskit posted:I'll simplify it. Pension funds are run by financial institutions, and I dunno if you were around at the time but they had a bit of a problem... with their assets, IE, things like pension funds. who knows what they did with the bailout money. No really. They're not required to report what they did with the bailout money. From what we know, a lot of it went to buying out other banks: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/where-did-the-bailout-billions-really-go/
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:01 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-05/detroit-pension-cuts-from-bankruptcy-prompt-cries-of-betrayal What exactly is your point?
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:03 |
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Veskit posted:What exactly is your point? The pension funds weren't bailed out
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:06 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:The pension funds weren't bailed out They were. You're like fundamentally not getting that pension funds were bailed out as part of the bailout
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:10 |
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Veskit posted:They were. You're like fundamentally not getting that pension funds were bailed out as part of the bailout Please cite your source.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:12 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:Please cite your source. It's not going to make any sense to you if you don't understand how a bailout works. Think of it like if I told you that in another universe a avatar of myself just kicked you in the nuts to death, and you asked for the source and I tried to link you string theory but i mean none of it makes sense if you don't get how it works. So like here's the source? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage-backed_security Here's how monetary policy works and QE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcPEkmstDek Is that what you're asking for?
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:20 |
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Veskit posted:It's not going to make any sense to you if you don't understand how a bailout works. Think of it like if I told you that in another universe a avatar of myself just kicked you in the nuts to death, and you asked for the source and I tried to link you string theory but i mean none of it makes sense if you don't get how it works. No. If there was a pension fund bailout, you can drat well bet it would've made the news. People would be touting Obama's grand benevolence from every orifice. Please cite a news source.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:25 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-05/detroit-pension-cuts-from-bankruptcy-prompt-cries-of-betrayal Okay, since you really don't understand what's going on in Michigan, I'll break it down for you. You are conflating two different issues-the automotive bailout, and Detroit's bankruptcy. The auto bailout, which took place in 2009, was effectively a loan given to GM and Chrysler to allow them to retain their assets as they went through partial bankruptcy proceedings to restructure their companies. It also took place alongside the federal "Cash for Clunkers" program, where the government funds were used to guarantee $4000 trade-ins for new cars (To help improve demand and keep the factories running and workers employed), and renegotiations between the UAW and the Big 3, where the UAW agreed to pay cuts (Especially for new workers) to help the automakers improve their financial stability. The end result of these programs, 7 years later, is that all three automakers have returned to profitability, and as a result not only has the economy of SE Michigan not collapsed, but the UAW was able to push through generous new contracts that restored wages for new hires and increased profit-sharing for workers. Note as well that the primary legislation that occurred during this time to facilitate the auto recovery was signed in 2009, aka when the Democrats had a majority in both the House and Senate. Detroit's bankruptcy, by contrast, was a deliberate effort by the state government to drive Detroit into bankruptcy through the appointing of an "Emergency Manager" with wide-sweeping powers to break union contracts and control the city's finances. Part of the state's motivation to do so was so that they could renegotiate pension liabilities, and when the bankruptcy came that's what they did. And regardless of whether Obama wanted to use federal funds to guarantee the city's pensions, he had no ability to do so, as in 2013 (When the Bankruptcy was filed) the city, the state, and the House were controlled by Republicans that would block any action to help the city. Neoliberalism isn't to blame for Detroit's woes, as much as you want it to be. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Nov 16, 2016 |
# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:27 |
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This is all terribly interesting but is the next show not really until next year? What is it, January? That's a hell of a break.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:27 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:No. If there was a pension fund bailout, you can drat well bet it would've made the news. People would be touting Obama's grand benevolence from every orifice. Please cite a news source. What I'm saying is that if you put all the pieces together, you will have learned how this bailed out pension funds. Stare-Out posted:This is all terribly interesting but is the next show not really until next year? What is it, January? That's a hell of a break. Might be February. Veskit fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 16, 2016 |
# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:30 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:No. If there was a pension fund bailout, you can drat well bet it would've made the news. People would be touting Obama's grand benevolence from every orifice. Please cite a news source. You are fundamentally misunderstanding this dude. Pension funds don't sit on their money, they invest it. Pension funds also don't invest the money themselves because they aren't equipped to do that. Take the pension funds of the state of Texas. These were owned by AIG which was on the verge of bankruptcy due to their retarded practices. If AIG went bankrupt that would destroy the pension plans of millions, we are talking pennies on the dollar losses. The state of Texas was prepared to seize AIG subsidiaries in an attempt to get back dimes on the dollar if push came to shove, and the only thing that prevented this total meltdown, and saved the pension funds, was the bank bailouts. Yes it is possible to have bailed out the pensioners directly, but it is false to say that they were not bailed out at all.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:36 |
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I know this is the most whiny liberal thing to say, but after John's big spiel about donating to good causes, all I could think of watching the exploding "2016" was how much money was wasted on it.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:37 |
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Veskit posted:Might be February. I'd be surprised if they weren't back on by inauguration at least. Still, that's a long break.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:39 |
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I think he's in the Jill Stein camp in that qunaititative easing is just financial fuckery and you can't just QE a pension plan. Who am I kidding he has no idea how monetary policy works on any level whatsoever.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:44 |
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Veskit posted:I think he's in the Jill Stein camp in that qunaititative easing is just financial fuckery and you can't just QE a pension plan. That isn't even QE though, that was straight up "Here is a comically large bag of loving money with $$$ signs on it" bailout. I mean QE certainly qualifies afterwards, but collapse of serious institutions was all but assured without the stimulus.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:49 |
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Caros posted:You are fundamentally misunderstanding this dude. Sure, giving money to the banks supposedly ensured the economy from complete collapse, and people were invested in that economy. However, that's not the same thing as bailing out a pension fund that can't meet it's obligation to its pensioners. Pension funds were still allowed to default.
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:49 |
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So how about Last Week Tonight, huh?
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# ? Nov 16, 2016 23:54 |
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Okay, since you really don't understand what's going on in Michigan, I'll break it down for you. In 2009, it was still pretty obvious that Detroit was in serious trouble. The city was in decline for decades. The political will to target help to the people of Detroit just wasn't there. They don't contribute enough to election campaigns.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:01 |
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Duzzy Funlop posted:So how about Last Week Tonight, huh? Well seeing as how LWT is done until next year. I don't see how this derail is really hurting things, but if it is, I'll gladly stop.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:03 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:Sure, giving money to the banks supposedly ensured the economy from complete collapse, and people were invested in that economy. However, that's not the same thing as bailing out a pension fund that can't meet it's obligation to its pensioners. Pension funds were still allowed to default. So we're banks. If AIG or institutions like it had collapsed the pension funds they serviced would have been unable to meet their demands as well. I mean here: Johnny the pension find guy takes in $100 from his pensioners with the promise to pay them back with interest in ten years. Johnny invests in Joe Cassano's house of lovely derivatives. Cassano gambles (note how close his name is to casino, real person though) and loses. He has no money to pay Johnny. Uncle Sam pays Cassano who can no pay his pensioners. Why the gently caress do you only call it a pension bailout if uncle Sam pays Johnny or the pensioners directly. The whole reason these banks were considered too big too fail is due to functions like pension investments Thst would have been obliterated. AIG only got the money and assistance it did because the alternative was horrific.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:14 |
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Duzzy Funlop posted:So how about Last Week Tonight, huh? gently caress John Oliver
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:18 |
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Caros posted:Why the gently caress do you only call it a pension bailout if uncle Sam pays Johnny or the pensioners directly. Because that's what it means to bailout a pension fund. When did the government guarantee a pension fund? Uncle sammie bailing out the banks is not the same as uncle sammie bailing out everyone or all the funds that depend on the market. Bailing out everyone would mean guaranteeing that all businesses/funds wouldn't fail/default as a result of the crash.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:22 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:In 2009, it was still pretty obvious that Detroit was in serious trouble. The city was in decline for decades. The political will to target help to the people of Detroit just wasn't there. They don't contribute enough to election campaigns. But saving the pensions of city workers wasn't an issue for the city in 2009. You know what was? Saving the loving auto industry.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:23 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:Because that's what it means to bailout a pension fund. When did the government guarantee a pension fund? The bailout didn't do that so it wasn't a bailout then?
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:23 |
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Veskit posted:The bailout didn't do that so it wasn't a bailout then? The bank bailout bailed out the banks, not everyone.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:26 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:The bank bailout bailed out the banks, not everyone. I bolded the part I'm trying to get across Rated PG-34 posted:Bailing out everyone would mean guaranteeing that all businesses/funds wouldn't fail/default as a result of the crash.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:28 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:The bank bailout bailed out the banks, not everyone. Where do you think banks get their money?
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:30 |
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Veskit posted:I bolded the part I'm trying to get across I'm not sure what you mean. The government didn't guarantee that all businesses/funds wouldn't fail as a result of the crash. Businesses/funds did fail.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:34 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:I'm not sure what you mean. The government didn't guarantee that all businesses/funds wouldn't fail as a result of the crash. Businesses/funds did fail. In keeping with HBO, it's pretty obvious you're like a Westworld host, where whenever you're shown something that challenges your ideologies or threatens your sanity, all you're capable of saying is "it doesn't look like anything to me."
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:37 |
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BIG HEADLINE posted:In keeping with HBO, it's pretty obvious you're like a Westworld host, where whenever you're shown something that challenges your ideologies or threatens your sanity, all you're capable of saying is "it doesn't look like anything to me." Why don't you put down an argument
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:40 |
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Rated PG-34 posted:I'm not sure what you mean. The government didn't guarantee that all businesses/funds wouldn't fail as a result of the crash. Businesses/funds did fail. Acebuckeye13 posted:Where do you think banks get their money?
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:40 |
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# ? May 28, 2024 16:23 |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_acquired_or_bankrupted_during_the_Great_Recession Here's a nice list if it's not evident enough. Some businesses failed, ergo everyone was not bailed out.
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# ? Nov 17, 2016 00:43 |