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Gustin only has charisma and the adorkable stuff when the writers make it light-hearted - stuff like him zipping between Iris and Joe trying to get them to talk, or him loving up trying to ask Iris out. Any serious/angsty stuff and Gustin just fumbles it. I like Wally. I'm not saying that the character is in my top 5 or that he's wowing me in his scenes, but there's nothing wrong with the actor. Blame the writers for making him whine about not having powers/speed/a dad. Delivery seems fine to me.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:12
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DoctorWhat posted:people complaining about Wally/Keiynan Lonsdale should probably take a step back and reassess why his performance "annoys" them so much when similar acting from Gustin gets a pass. Is it because the character isn't very interesting and was introduced in a dumb street racing/secret son storyline?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:16
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yeah make a side effect that the addition of speed gives him an endorphin injection and a perpetual peppy personality and presto...we have the wal-man.  p
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Nov 16, 2016 18:31
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DoctorWhat posted:i mean, no, he really doesn't. I'm a Theater Major, so believe me, I have. DoctorWhat posted:people complaining about Wally/Keiynan Lonsdale should probably take a step back and reassess why his performance "annoys" them so much when similar acting from Gustin gets a pass. Grant gives the occasional flat line reading, but that's because Grant has the thankless task of delivering a lot of the show's exposition. He generally does pretty drat well-- not only does he make good use of inflection, but he also varies the rhythm of his speech, stretching and shortening words, using pauses and vocal interjections to make his dialogue sound a lot more realistic than it would if he was just reading it as written. There are lines in this show that no one could save, but Grant generally gives it a respectable go, so he gets a pass for the occasional flub. He also has very expressive facial and body language to help make up for anything his vocal performance might lack. Keiynan's line readings are very mechanical, with little alteration in rhythm or pitch, and his movements, facial or otherwise, are very stiff. And because there is so little variance to it, it's hard to like the character or the performance. Look, I get the instinctive jump to racism as the go-to reason for disliking him given all the bullshit that Candice Patton has had to face, but this is definitely not the case here. For your consideration: here is a video of a black man cringing at every word that Wally speaks. (Yes, I know, reaction videos are a plague upon the internet, but they're useful for poo poo like this.) Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm settling on the forced American accent being what's killing him. It would definitely explain why he seems to speak so mechanically, and if it's taking that much concentration just to say his lines without his Aussie bleeding through, he's not gonna have a lot of juice left to put into his actual performance. He's not a bad actor-- while I was typing this up, I looked up a couple of clips of him on Dance Academy, and honestly he seems a lot better there. They should've just said Iris's mom moved to Australia or something and let the man speak his native tongue.  shades of eternity posted:yeah I agree. Just letting him be a happy cool guy would probably go a long way towards making him more tolerable.
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Nov 16, 2016 19:12
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Spergatory posted:I agree. Just letting him be a happy cool guy would probably go a long way towards making him more tolerable. Yeah, honestly, the first episode of the season he was working really well for me: Flashpoint Caitlin: "Was I just kidnapped?" Wally: "Unclear..." The current mopey thing is definitely not helping all that much
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Nov 16, 2016 19:24
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Why does Savitar look like a transformer
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Nov 16, 2016 19:34
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Pussy Quipped posted:Why does Savitar look like a transformer He's Blurr, the Cybertronian speedster.
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Nov 16, 2016 20:20
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Savitar clearly isn't the big bad, he's just working for the Reapers.
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Nov 16, 2016 20:22
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I thought he looked like the Guyver
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Nov 16, 2016 21:07
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He looked like the guy from Bioforge. I hope they defeat Savitar by distracting him with a flute and backflips.
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Nov 16, 2016 23:33
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Did Alchemy get a promotion this episode? Or did I just not notice them calling him a doctor before or explaining why?
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Nov 17, 2016 00:43
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Why the hell did Joe invite everyone on his date with the DA?
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Nov 17, 2016 01:01
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Pussy Quipped posted:Why does Savitar look like a transformer Just be glad you didn't see Wells going GIVE ME YOUR FACE to that british guy
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Nov 17, 2016 01:14
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Phylodox posted:Did Alchemy get a promotion this episode? Or did I just not notice them calling him a doctor before or explaining why? Cisco and Wells nickname him Doctor Alchemy in like the second or third episode. They've been awfully spotty with it since then, usually just calling him Alchemy because "Doctor Alchemy" is kind of a silly name, even if it's what he's called in the comics.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:23
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One of the problems the writers have (except for Cisco! Cisco is written right!) is that they have a very poor grasp of how young people express frustration, despair, etc. Most characters aren't nearly as self-deprecating or sarcastic in their darker moments as real people their age would be, and it drags the dialogue and performances down. Attempts at "gravitas" and sincerity are made less believable and sincere by how composed and prepared the speeches often feel. This is baffling because breezy dialogue is totally within the realm of "how people talk to each other in 2016" and, as said before, Cisco's dialogue has all the anger and frustration and sarcastic bite it needs to have when the situation calls for it. Joe and Wells get the good stuff, too, in that regard, and Felton has had some luck. But the show has this weirdo blind spot in how Barry and Wally's expressions of anger and frustration are scripted most of the time.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:36
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The horror when Caitlyn processes that everything is Barry's fault is pretty great.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:40
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hiddenriverninja posted:The horror when Caitlyn processes that everything is Barry's fault is pretty great. Killer Frost, not the hero this world deserves but definitely the one it needs to stop the time traveling monster Barry Allen.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:59
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DoctorWhat posted:One of the problems the writers have (except for Cisco! Cisco is written right!) is that they have a very poor grasp of how young people express frustration, despair, etc. Most characters aren't nearly as self-deprecating or sarcastic in their darker moments as real people their age would be, and it drags the dialogue and performances down. Attempts at "gravitas" and sincerity are made less believable and sincere by how composed and prepared the speeches often feel. It's like how people hate when Batman has sidekicks because HE'S THE DARK KNIGHT AND HE WORKS ALONE, DARKNESS, NO PARENTS, etc. The price of the fame and legacy of Batman is that writers don't get to really do anything interesting and new with him because it might upset the fans who pay to see what they know. Barry has had some self-aware deprecating moments in the past (most of them when he was speaking with Eobard Thawne that I can recall) and Grant can really play those well. I think when the writing acknowledges Barry's true pain, without generating any additional angst, they hit a great spot and that's what Grant can convey. As for Barry's true pain? It's chasing after this perfect life that he can never have, but he's too blindsighted by that goal to see it. He lost his mother at a young age, his dad went to jail, and all he ever wanted was for things to feel like they were when he was a child. That's the real kind of tragedy in Flashpoint - Barry gets exactly that, but he's not satisfied with it. If he really was, then losing all those memories of the past, losing his powers, wouldn't cause him so much burden. It's like Wells-Thawne says in the start of s2: Barry can get the thing he wants most, and he still won't be happy. This poo poo is already ingrained into the writing of the character but the writers don't always seem to get how to pull it out, so they try to fake it. lotus circle fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 02:07
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Murphys Law posted:He's Blurr, the Cybertronian speedster.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:03
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hiddenriverninja posted:The horror when Caitlyn processes that everything is Barry's fault is pretty great. God, Iris's Flashpoint fallout is just seeming more and more trivial all the time. "I was mad at my dad for like 6 months because he lied to me until I realized what I poo poo I was being and forgave him." And of course it was solved in the best way--dinner and dad jokes  Because like I said, Joe and Iris share the super power of just not giving a gently caress drat.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:40
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These "young people" are mid to late twenties with full time careers.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:48
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pee out my butt posted:He looked like the guy from Bioforge. I hope they defeat Savitar by distracting him with a flute and backflips. God I hope they do a good remake of that game someday.
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Nov 17, 2016 08:49
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Invalid Validation posted:These "young people" are mid to late twenties with full time careers.
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Nov 17, 2016 12:55
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:God I hope they do a good remake of that game someday. It's been so many years, but (bioforge spoiler) Mastaba still needs to die and I hope Escher is all right.
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Nov 17, 2016 13:47
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DoctorWhat posted:people complaining about Wally/Keiynan Lonsdale should probably take a step back and reassess why his performance "annoys" them so much when similar acting from Gustin gets a pass. DoctorWhat posted:I can guess. It must be fun to be a smuglord subtlely accusing people of racism, because otherwise I can't understand why you'd be such an rear end in a top hat over legitimate criticism. Not every critique of a person of color is motivated by race. I said this once last season when someone called it "gross" when there was a clunky line from Dr. Stein telling Jackson to use his natural athleticism -- The Flash is a TV show where the main character is a white man who is in love with a black woman, was adopted into a loving black family, and has a strong and healthy relationship with his black foster dad. When I was in high school, that would have been the entire premise of the show, not just a backdrop for comic book superhero antics, and we'd have already gotten a bunch of very special episodes where Barry learns about the ugliness of racism. The Flash is ridiculously progressive by that standard, and not a show that casual racists are going to have a good time with. I am not saying that anyone who writes or watches the show is above racism, of course, but I think you can give them the benefit of the doubt when multiple people say "This (black) actor is wooden" "I keep imagining the inflections he should have used" that they're actually criticising the acting and not airing out some long-buried racism. Phenotype fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 13:55
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Nope. Sorry. That line from Stein was gross af, and there are plenty of racists who both watch this show and work on it. It's easy to say "Look at the 3(whole!) Characters! How can X be racist!" But that's because you probably have an untrained eye. It's generally a good idea to use Occam's razor. Did someone say something that could easily be read as a racism? Then it's probably racism. You can bet that the people sending Candice Patton death threats and racial slurs are still watching the show. And while I'm at it jfc dude, having black characters doesn't make a show progressive (if it did the walking dead would be progressive as gently caress) it's what you write for them and.how you use them that makes the show progressive. The underutilization of Wally, and Iris (followed by Mr Terrific, Jimmy, Jax if you expand) shows that The Flash and the flarrow universe in general does not know what to do with black characters who aren't white mentors (Joe, GreenDad, kinda Diggle) and even they often easily get reduced to cheerleading for the main hero. And while I'm at it, you can't point to Joe raising Barry as being really progressive either when Barry's mission for 2 seasons was save my mom, save my dad, gently caress up the timeline and the lives of the people who took me in and gave me shelter, and have me a family again. And instead of the writers exploring those black characters feelings we get "it's all good". You know who does get that storyline though? A white character. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 14:11
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Koalas March posted:Nope. Sorry. That line from Stein was gross af, and there are plenty of racists who both watch this show and work on it. It's easy to say "Look at the 3(whole!) Characters! How can X be racist!" But that's because you probably have an untrained eye. It's generally a good idea to use Occam's razor. Did someone say something that could easily be read as a racism? Then it's probably racism. I never said having black characters makes it progressive, I said it is progressive because it has a white boy being adopted into a black family and portrayed as a healthy and loving home, and then completely ignoring it because it doesn't have anything to do with the plot, they're just doing a superhero show set in a realistic mixed-race America. Likewise, an outwardly racist writer would probably balk at writing for a show like that. Again, I'm not saying they're incapable of being racist, but your buddy Occam would say that, in a show that features healthy multiracial families and has had quite a bit of clunky writing, the simplest answer is that it was just another clunky line, and "gross" is a needlessly inflammatory way to categorize it. If a friend of yours accidentally stuttered and asked you to get him a Nickers bar, would you tell him he was being gross? I'm not going to get into this any further with you, because it really feels like you just want to see racism anywhere it could possibly be, and are willing to disregard anything that might point to the contrary. I mean, is there any way to criticize Wally's acting and NOT fall into your definition of racism?
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Nov 17, 2016 14:54
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Phenotype posted:I never said having black characters makes it progressive, I said it is progressive because it has a white boy being adopted into a black family and portrayed as a healthy and loving home, and then completely ignoring it because it doesn't have anything to do with the plot, they're just doing a superhero show set in a realistic mixed-race America. Ah yes, the black people see racism everywhere fallback. Good one. Whether it was a "clunky" line or not it was racist. You can be racist without the intent, believe it or not. And I can absolutely tell you that racist screenwriters would work on a show with black characters. That's like saying no racists would work in a job that would have a black coworker. Hollywood is a competitive industry, you work where you can. Especially as a staff writer on a popular tv show. And to go one step further a lot of racist people don't even think they're racist. But when a black person comes to you and says "Hey that's kinda/pretty racist" you should probably just listen to them, because they have a lot more experience with it than you. If you're actually interested in this subject, please checkout my misogynoir thread in D&D. Both TB and I work in production and media, and we talk about at this at length.
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Nov 17, 2016 15:09
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Koalas March posted:Ah yes, the black people see racism everywhere fallback. Good one. Whether it was a "clunky" line or not it was racist. You can be racist without the intent, believe it or not. I had no idea what race or nationality you were when I said that, but yes, it does seem that way. (e: case in point, by the way, is assuming I said that because I somehow know you're black.) Yes, it was a racist line and I'm aware people can be racist without intending to be, but "gross" is a very aggressive term for something that was likely done without malicious intent. Likewise, I cannot understand where you see racism in people saying "Wally is a wooden actor". I have to repeat: How could one criticize his acting WITHOUT falling into your Occam's Razor definition of racism? I have to concede that you're probably right about racist writers in a competitive industry, but I mean, look at the show's setting. Whether or not any individual writers are racist, I don't understand how you don't give any credit to them showing such a positive portrayal of multiracial families, to the point that you outright ignore it to pretend I said "having black characters is progressive". I don't know what more a TV show could do to promote a positive message about race. Phenotype fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 15:22
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Koalas March posted:Nope. Sorry. That line from Stein was gross af, and there are plenty of racists who both watch this show and work on it. It's easy to say "Look at the 3(whole!) Characters! How can X be racist!" But that's because you probably have an untrained eye. It's generally a good idea to use Occam's razor. Did someone say something that could easily be read as a racism? Then it's probably racism. I don't think Wally is being underutilized. He's a not very compelling character with a dumb story played by an actor who's not good enough to save the character from all that. The problem definitely isn't we aren't getting enough of him.
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Nov 17, 2016 15:27
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The cliffhanger ending was annoying. Of course Barry is pinned with no escape. By a speed god or whatever. Do you think he'll phase through (inexplicably, since it's be countered) or that Wally will burst out of his lava shell thing and sweep the leg? Actually no, Joe will shoot Savitar in the leg, it'll plink off, but he'll run away and we'll hear "drat that was close, you okay?" Also, it's pretty obvious Wally is going to be Kid Flash. So are they going to keep two speedsters full time? It seems like they shipped Jesse and Harry back to Earth-2 because they DIDN'T want that. Will it be all "Barry trains Wally" or does Wally hop in at roughly Barry's level already?
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Nov 17, 2016 15:32
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Phenotype posted:"gross" is a very aggressive term
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Nov 17, 2016 15:42
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Phenotype posted:Likewise, I cannot understand where you see racism in people saying "Wally is a wooden actor". I have to repeat: How could one criticize his acting WITHOUT falling into your Occam's Razor definition of racism? Please quote anywhere where I said that people criticizing Keiynan were racist. Please quote where I engaged anyone talking about that subject in the last few pages. I quoted you, and engaged you, because you came into this thread and said a whole bunch of ignorant things that are actually detrimental to people of color. Let me hep you. And if you don't know what more the show could do, why don't you ask a black person? Because boy, I have some ideas. Give Iris a storyline outside of Barry! Let her be a kickass reporter! Give Wally a personality! Show why he's worthy of becoming KidFlash! Show the West family dynamics! Why couldn't Iris should have a proper storyline with her mom that wasn't runaway drug addict (terrible stereotype by the way) who dies 1 episode later. Again, proper representation isn't just Ebony & Ivory.mp3, everybody loves each other, black characters exist. It's what you do with those characters. Barry and Iris is a big deal and is awesome for woc. That is good. But Iris not having her own storyline, not fulfilling her potential as an ace reporter is bad. You can be progressive in one area and totally terrible in another. It's not zero-sum. Also I assumed you knew I was black because I said so in the OP of this thread and expressed in this thread the need for the show to use it's black characters so that people like myself get representation. Have you read this thread at all? Have you read the OP? Ana one more time, if a black person comes to you, and says something is racist, you should generally take their word for it. Do you agree?
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Nov 17, 2016 16:21
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Koalas March posted:And while I'm at it, you can't point to Joe raising Barry as being really progressive either when Barry's mission for 2 seasons was save my mom, save my dad, gently caress up the timeline and the lives of the people who took me in and gave me shelter, and have me a family again. And instead of the writers exploring those black characters feelings we get "it's all good". You know who does get that storyline though? A white character. I find this rather reductionist, because this ignores the fact that Joe and Barry is one of the focal relationships of the show, and one of the constants is he's thankful for Joe being there.
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Nov 17, 2016 16:25
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Koalas March posted:Please quote anywhere where I said that people criticizing Keiynan were racist. Please quote where I engaged anyone talking about that subject in the last few pages. I quoted you, and engaged you, because you came into this thread and said a whole bunch of ignorant things that are actually detrimental to people of color. Let me hep you. I read the thread from time to time, but no, I haven't read the OP and don't know what any particular poster here has written in the past. I do have to apologize, though, I thought you were the initial guy I quoted who was insinuating that any criticism of Wally's actor is racially motivated. I would like to know what I've said that you think is ignorant and detrimental, though. You're right that the show could have more depth to its black characters, but I suppose I was using a bit of hyperbole there -- of course there's more that it can do, but it is already doing a great deal to promote a multiracial America, and that's not even the main focus of the show. I don't know why you would put Iris not getting better storylines next to that as a racially-motivated negative, especially when you can directly compare it to the awful way Arrow has handled its (white) side characters for the last few years. All I've been trying to say is that, based on the positive family setting, Flash is one of the more progressive shows on TV, especially considering it isn't even intended to be a racially-charged show, and so I'm not even sure what we're arguing about anymore. I just disliked what was apparently another poster coming in and smugly calling everyone a racist because they thought Wally was a bad actor -- and last season, demonizing the writers' room for what I would wager was an honest mistake by mediocre writers, because I felt like creating the family setting that they did helps give some background on their views and makes it much more likely that it was an accident without malice. If you must know, no, I would not generally take anyone's word that something is racist, as I prefer to do my own examinations. Black people may be better at noticing racism, and I'd probably agree with them most of the time when they tell me something is racist, but there is also a large and annoying SJW movement in this country that excels at spotting racism and sexism anywhere they look, which I feel actually does damage to the cause, and so I think it's important to form your own opinions and not view everything in a vacuum.
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Nov 17, 2016 17:07
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frgildan posted:I hope he's not Alchemy. I almost hope for a cut away at the end and it's him sitting in Jitters with his Girlfriend. I wouldn't be surprised if Julian's girlfriend winds up being Alchemy (and Julian is the one who ultimately plays a key role in defeating her). The mention of a previously unknown girlfriend seemed too forced for her to not wind up being important in the end. She'll also probably wind up being a new version of Patti. In S2 she was already a big fan of Barry's metahuman-related case reports before she ever met him in person; in this new timeline those case reports probably would have been written by Julian instead?
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Nov 17, 2016 19:18
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Phenotype posted:I'm not even sure what we're arguing about anymore. I might be able to help with that: a black poster came in to give their perspective on race portrayals in this show and instead of listening you doubled down to protect your ego. And hey, that's fine, it was a mistake, but I would seriously suggest just recognizing that and listening rather than continuing to give your own perspective on the racial element of the show (which I assure you is incomplete). (Also for what it's worth, DoctorWhat's original point was overbearing but you way overcorrected by bringing up the Stein quote and your feelings on the progressiveness of the show. Notice how KM didn't reply to the other posters refuting DW's posts) (Also also, KM obviously appreciates the progressiveness of the show since she's talked repeatedly about how great Candice's casting is for young black girls. That doesn't mean she can't critique the show or that it's not silly for you to point out the good stuff to her)
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Nov 17, 2016 19:31
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Mornil posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Julian's girlfriend winds up being Alchemy (and Julian is the one who ultimately plays a key role in defeating her). The mention of a previously unknown girlfriend seemed too forced for her to not wind up being important in the end. Either it's just something to show that Barry really doesn't know poo poo about Julian still, even though they no longer absolutely despise each other, or it's foreshadowing for the Harry Potter crossover episodes.
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Nov 17, 2016 19:34
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Mornil posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Julian's girlfriend winds up being Alchemy (and Julian is the one who ultimately plays a key role in defeating her). The mention of a previously unknown girlfriend seemed too forced for her to not wind up being important in the end. Surprise twist: Julian's girlfriend is Patty 
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Nov 17, 2016 19:35
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Surprise twist: Julian's girlfriend is Patty oh yessss please the best burnnnnn spoiler: Barry is going to absorb everyone's speed so that no one will have to fight crime but him, but then he turns into the speed god Flash from Kingdom Come
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Nov 17, 2016 20:01
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