SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Progressives are liberals who don't even know they're socialists yet.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 10:36

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# ? May 27, 2024 00:10

bump_fn: Apr 12, 2004; _{two of them}

someone post the jabberwocky

# ? Nov 19, 2016 10:46

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

deadgoon posted:

this is what you need to understand about liberalism

ctrl-f marx and prepare to have your mind blown

# ? Nov 19, 2016 12:36

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

I think this link has been posted before, but this whole article is too beautiful to not post in its entirety: http://time.com/4569766/bernie-sanders-ralph-nader-2016/

A Corncob posted:

Sanders distracted Hillary Clinton from creating a unified vision for the future

On Election Day, Senator Bernie Sanders earned the 2016 �Ralph Nader Award� for the Leftist Most Responsible for Helping Republicans Win the Presidency. True, Donald Trump cleverly exploited voters� frustrations. And Hillary Clinton�s campaign in 2016 was as rigid and empty as it was when she lost in 2008. Still, Sanders helped Clinton lose. His insurgency pushed her too far left to prevent an effective re-centering in the fall, while goading her into wooing different constituencies rather than uniting the nation.

In fairness, Sanders ran a surprisingly effective campaign tapping the same anti-establishment fury Donald Trump stirred. Although Sanders and Trump are very different, their campaigns were not. Each treated Hillary Clinton as a compromised, Wall Street�worshipping, Establishment sellout. Both demonized Washington insiders and free trade, rather than tackling the real structural problem: the United States deindustrialized because Americans refuse to pay what it costs to hire American workers and instead buy cheaper imported products. As a result, just as Ralph Nader siphoned tens of thousands of votes on Election Day 2000 in Florida from Al Gore, causing the deadlock and George W. Bush�s victory, Bernie Sanders� similar vampire effect enfeebled Hillary Clinton.

What was supposed to be a unifying week for the Democratic Party, culminating in the historic nomination of a woman for president, instead was beset by anguish and protests as Bernie Sanders� faithful refused to accept Clinton�s victory.
This dynamic followed a classic historical pattern. Sanders drew Clinton from the center toward the Democrats� extreme flank. That shift paralleled Jimmy Carter�s leftward lurch when Ted Kennedy ran in 1980, and George H.W. Bush�s rightwing swerve when Pat Buchanan rebelled in 1992. Each time, the frontrunners felt forced to placate loyalists they should have been able to take for granted, while embracing extreme positions that haunted them during the general election campaign.

This year replayed that Insurgent�s Vampire Effect. Clinton expected to inherit the nomination without serious opponents. Joe Biden and John Kerry, each of whom sees a potential president whenever he looks in the mirror, didn�t run, deferring to the Clintons� power in the party and to Hillary Clinton�s claim that it was �our time� as women to win the presidency�an appeal that, surprisingly, bored younger women.

As an independent, Sanders lacked such loyalty. His hip campaign addressed the displaced and disempowered , claiming Hillary Clinton was the problem not the solution. In response, Hillary Clinton channeled Walter Mondale in 1984, desperately appealing to different special interests. Characteristically, after winning Super Tuesday, she declared: �We have to defend all our rights�workers� rights, and women�s rights, civil rights and voting rights, LGBT rights and rights for people with disabilities.� This pluralistic appeal failed to offer a unifying national mission. It illustrated Donald Trump�s complaint that Democrats were so busy kowtowing to minorities they neglected the white majority and the nation�s need for consensus.

Having catered to the millennial and minority sensibility in the spring, Hillary Clinton missed the mainstream, failing to recalibrate for the fall. This misread was most apparent in her neglect of her greatest political ally, Bill Clinton, and his legacy. In the 1990s, President Clinton shrewdly led from the center, forging a �Third Way� progressivism more balanced than the big-government, special interest group-oriented liberalism which Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush handily defeated in the 1980s. Clintonite centrism embraced free trade as bringing prosperity not exporting jobs. Clinton fought crime, framing it as threat to all Americans, especially blacks. Clinton reformed welfare to restore governmental credibility and recipients� dignity. Clinton talked candidly about restructuring the economy while rebuilding traditional culture, because too many Americans felt they were �living in the funhouse.�

Pressed by the Sanders Sensation, intimidated by Black Lives Matter, even Bill Clinton backpedaled, apologizing for fighting crime and his centrist legacy. With no one explaining how bad crime was in the 1990s, how dysfunctional the welfare system was, how two-thirds of blacks supported both initiatives, Clinton�s legislation seemed draconian. Hillary Clinton became a doughnut candidate, sprinkling sweets to particular groups but lacking any core. That distortion made her the perfect foil for Donald Trump�s demagoguery.

Sanders liberals considered Clintonian centrism not liberal enough, not minority-sensitive enough, not pure enough. The result is a president-elect hostile to liberalism, unafraid of demonizing minorities and epitomizing a killer instinct that makes Clintonian triangulation look na�ve. All this makes Bernie Sanders the Ralph Nader of 2016.

Guys the real problem was that Clinton wasn't able to take enough of her constituency for granted to focus on a centrist message. If it wasn't for Sanders addressing the displaced and disempowered and distracting Hillary, Third Way-ism would have had this in the bag.

Bonus points for casting Bill apologizing as a bad thing, and for somehow pinning the blame on anybody but Wall Street for deindustrialization even though it was the banker class that refused to cut into their profits by paying American workers more and who made records profits by offshoring.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 13:00

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

The knee-jerk defense of the crime bill is the best. Reactionary politics are good if they're popular, who cares how self-destructive they always are?

# ? Nov 19, 2016 13:10

tower time: Jul 30, 2008

Happy to see that my congressman is on the list of endorsements for Ellison. It's a nice thought at least that calling his office might have made a small difference.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 13:24

Lastgirl: Sep 7, 1997; Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!

Not a Step posted:

I think this link has been posted before, but this whole article is too beautiful to not post in its entirety: http://time.com/4569766/bernie-sanders-ralph-nader-2016/

Guys the real problem was that Clinton wasn't able to take enough of her constituency for granted to focus on a centrist message. If it wasn't for Sanders addressing the displaced and disempowered and distracting Hillary, Third Way-ism would have had this in the bag.

Bonus points for casting Bill apologizing as a bad thing, and for somehow pinning the blame on anybody but Wall Street for deindustrialization even though it was the banker class that refused to cut into their profits by paying American workers more and who made records profits by offshoring.

the only good thing from that article is referring to clinton as a donut candidate, I hadn't thought of her as such but the author sure goes to length to explain it, and it's staring at them right in the face and they still are perplexed that Clinton lost, so it's just the same old scapegoat shtick to deflect any internal criticism.

im not exactly seeing any admission to owning up that she was overall pretty weak and couldn't tout her campaign without a bevvy of celebrities and surrogates (that did a whole lotta good~), which means...it won't be learned from unless there is reform within the party but this thing's going to go back and forth, it's the same sham that propped up this empty vessel and expected a stroll into the white house.

If they weren't playing chicken in Michigan of all places, surely that had something to do with Bernie too.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 13:43

jackofarcades: Sep 2, 2011; Okay, I'll admit it took me a bit to get into it... But I think I kinda love this!! I'm Spider-Man!! I'm actually Spider-Man!! HA!

A close loss is the worst thing that could've happened since it just means everyone is going blame whatever pissed them off most about the whole thing.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:09

Lastgirl: Sep 7, 1997; Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!

Did some diggin around

http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/entry/nurses-criticize-democratic-platform-committee-vote-opposing-med-for-all/

Found this a pretty relevant indicator on how divided the DNC is with its progressive and centrist wings and Keith seems to be in the middle of it, bout 5 months old. Still relevant and a likely glimpse moving forward.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:10

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Doorknob Slobber posted:

protest outside their homes

inconvience the rich

nothing gets america to pay attention quite like rich people being inconvinenced

(this uh isnt irony)

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:15

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Not a Step posted:

I think this link has been posted before, but this whole article is too beautiful to not post in its entirety: http://time.com/4569766/bernie-sanders-ralph-nader-2016/

Guys the real problem was that Clinton wasn't able to take enough of her constituency for granted to focus on a centrist message. If it wasn't for Sanders addressing the displaced and disempowered and distracting Hillary, Third Way-ism would have had this in the bag.

Bonus points for casting Bill apologizing as a bad thing, and for somehow pinning the blame on anybody but Wall Street for deindustrialization even though it was the banker class that refused to cut into their profits by paying American workers more and who made records profits by offshoring.

lol, it's almost like running the perfect example of washington insider who didn't promise any sort of change was doomed to failure.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:20

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

etalian posted:

lol, it's almost like running the perfect example of washington insider who didn't promise any sort of change was doomed to failure.

she promised a lot of change, but yknow emails

perhaps there was a better choice than "woman seen by most of the country as a literal witch" to represent that change though

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:22

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Yinlock posted:

she promised a lot of change, but yknow emails

perhaps there was a better choice than "woman seen by most of the country as a literal witch" to represent that change though

change is bad because America is good

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:23

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

jackofarcades posted:

A close loss is the worst thing that could've happened since it just means everyone is going blame whatever pissed them off most about the whole thing.

Ok, but Hillary losing at *all*, even by one vote, is one of the largest upsets in modern political history. Yeah I know 'popular vote' and all, but Hillary was projected to sweep the nation in an FDR-esque blow out. She had dreams of Blue Arizona and Blue Georgia for fucks sake. Instead she got crushed in a way no one expected to one of the least qualified, least liked candidates in history.

Calling what happened a 'close loss' is as much sticking your head in the sand as the refusal to acknowledge the working class is, or at least should be, a core Democratic constituency.

E: And I feel the need to point this out, but the working class should be *a* core constituency, not *the* core constituency. Representing the working class does *not* mean throwing minorities under the bus, we can care about more than one thing. And they aren't even contradictory things, like the Republican Party has to deal with in wanting both small government and constant surveillance of every muslim/immigrant/gay/vagina in America.

Nix Panicus has issued a correction as of 14:33 on Nov 19, 2016

# ? Nov 19, 2016 14:29

Gene Hackman Fan: Dec 27, 2002; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

(there are a disproportionate number of minorities in the working class, y'all.

Hell, I'm a shitkicking hillbilly from a part of Appalachia that uses placenames like "lonesome valley," "widder's holler," "haint's coffin," and "gently caress your warrant" and even I coulda told you that)

Gene Hackman Fan has issued a correction as of 15:50 on Nov 19, 2016

# ? Nov 19, 2016 15:40

jackofarcades: Sep 2, 2011; Okay, I'll admit it took me a bit to get into it... But I think I kinda love this!! I'm Spider-Man!! I'm actually Spider-Man!! HA!

Not a Step posted:

Ok, but Hillary losing at *all*, even by one vote, is one of the largest upsets in modern political history. Yeah I know 'popular vote' and all, but Hillary was projected to sweep the nation in an FDR-esque blow out. She had dreams of Blue Arizona and Blue Georgia for fucks sake. Instead she got crushed in a way no one expected to one of the least qualified, least liked candidates in history.

Calling what happened a 'close loss' is as much sticking your head in the sand as the refusal to acknowledge the working class is, or at least should be, a core Democratic constituency.

E: And I feel the need to point this out, but the working class should be *a* core constituency, not *the* core constituency. Representing the working class does *not* mean throwing minorities under the bus, we can care about more than one thing. And they aren't even contradictory things, like the Republican Party has to deal with in wanting both small government and constant surveillance of every muslim/immigrant/gay/vagina in America.

I was coming around to this argument, but you're the one making it, so I'm not sure it's actually a smart plan anymore.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 15:50

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

My post on dws was a joke you doofuses

# ? Nov 19, 2016 15:54

Bodyholes: Jun 30, 2005

Yinlock posted:

she promised a lot of change, but yknow emails

perhaps there was a better choice than "woman seen by most of the country as a literal witch" to represent that change though

Yeah but everybody knew there wouldn't have been any change. The moment she got into office she'd support the TPP again, she'd slash Medicare and Social Security--the latter of which she had expressed support for privatizing in the past. Foreign policy? Same as Obama/Bush/Bill/Bush Sr/Reagan... Domestic security, well we're all freaking out about Obama handing over the surveillance state he helped to create to Donald Trump but I think we should fear it under any president.

So, we had that to look forward to. All the while maintaining an iron grip on the party while Republicans would've continued destroying democrats in midterms and dismantling state governments one by one.

I saw that, and I voted for her anyway, because of the Supreme Court, because getting more democrats on the court would help to overturn gerrymandering and free all the states oppressed by it. Maybe. Maybe not though... She might've done nothing about it. It was the only chance I saw though.

But not everyone saw the nuance. Some progressives didn't turn out, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:00

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

jackofarcades posted:

I was coming around to this argument, but you're the one making it, so I'm not sure it's actually a smart plan anymore.

Even Bill Kristol is right every now and then.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:01

Accretionist: Nov 7, 2012; I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

Gene Hackman Fan posted:

There are a disproportionate number of minorities in the working class, y'all.

I have to remind people of this so often that it's starting to feel like some COINTELPRO poo poo. 'Fighting inequality is racist because what about minorities?'

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:02

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Accretionist posted:

I have to remind people of this so often that it's starting to feel like some COINTELPRO poo poo. 'Fighting inequality is racist because what about minorities?'

Its because A: People are real dumb and B: We've been taught to focus on race, gender and sexuality as the primary identity groups for so long that anything else, like class, is seen as a diversion from those groups.

Woke idiots literally think helping the working class is code for handouts for white racists, in pretty much exactly the same way racist bigots think welfare means handouts for black welfare queens. We've been pretty effective at destroying our ability to organize around commonalities like class through constantly suspecting that somehow someone else *not like us* is getting ahead at out expense.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:12

Wutang-Yutani CORP: Sep 25, 2005; CORPORATIONS
RULE
EVERYTHING
AROUND
ME

theflyingexecutive posted:

Statement: "Hillary supported censoring video games"
Response: "no, just age restrictions"
Some manchild lurker: "here's a great Wikipedia link to show how comics were censored by a government that existed when Hillary Clinton was negative 33 years old. Hope this helps guys I'm glad my barely-literate rear end was able to punch "government censorship of comic books" into google so I could paste the link here, where nothing I'm saying has any relevance to the conversation but I get to pretend I'm participating by regurgitating information from the compendium of useless facts I possess, garnered from a proud history of hiding spider man comics behind my civics textbooks for my entire education. You're. Welcome."

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:19

Gene Hackman Fan: Dec 27, 2002; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Accretionist posted:

I have to remind people of this so often that it's starting to feel like some COINTELPRO poo poo. 'Fighting inequality is racist because what about minorities?'

Somehow, carving out my own enclave in these hills and instituting cornbread communism seems a little more realistic than taking over the Democratic party.

Bah, I gotta send those emails to the party chair.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:26

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Bernie Sanders issues the call to take to the streets

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/800002134133641216

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:48

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Gene Hackman Fan posted:

(there are a disproportionate number of minorities in the working class, y'all.

Hell, I'm a shitkicking hillbilly from a part of Appalachia that uses placenames like "lonesome valley," "widder's holler," "haint's coffin," and "gently caress your warrant" and even I coulda told you that)

But I as a liberal know that you are a racist troglodyte who wants to lynch blacks and burn gays. ( I don't actually believe that just making fun of the thought of regulars in uspol.)

Crowsbeak has issued a correction as of 16:55 on Nov 19, 2016

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:49

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

Here's one major takeaway that I gotten the last few days: Wisconsin is /not/ lost for 2020 (or 2018). Trump barely beat Romney. The major failure in WI was not Milwaukee and Madison not turning out, but likely WI-3, or Ron Kind's district, which in 2012 was blue as all hell, and this year was red.

Though part of me wonders if the Republicans actually ran a challenger to Kind if that would increase democrat turnout to keep Kind in and actually have a GOTV effort to preserve the seat.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:50

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

theflyingexecutive posted:

thx for the upgrade, love me some drat frostys

sir, this is a literal garbage dump

# ? Nov 19, 2016 16:51

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Yinlock posted:

sir, this is a literal garbage dump

You can tell by the Hillary Clinton Memorial Tire Fire, which has been burning for some thirty years now but we keep adding tires to it. We should probably stop doing that at some point, but its tradition by now I guess.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:16

comingafteryouall: Aug 2, 2011

Venom Snake posted:

Bernie Sanders issues the call to take to the streets

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/800002134133641216

you heard it here folks, go out in the streets and redistribute that income yourself!

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:20

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/800011417004871685

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

iospace posted:

https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/800011417004871685

Neoliberals are the enemies.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:27

Grey Fox: Jan 5, 2004

Yinlock posted:

she promised a lot of change, but yknow emails

perhaps there was a better choice than "woman seen by most of the country as a literal witch" to represent that change though

The candidate running on "America Is Already Great" is the change candidate, got it.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:41

loquacius: Oct 21, 2008

She did adopt Bernie's platform, she just didn't campaign on it, ever, so obviously it's the American people's fault for not knowing that and assuming she didn't give a poo poo about anything other than her own prestige -- a depressingly large number of people

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:46

comingafteryouall: Aug 2, 2011

Crowsbeak posted:

Neoliberals are the enemies.

Sure, but I'd rather not continue to give government money to private companies and letting them install more toll roads to "balance our budget", which really just means squeezing more money from the poor.

Grey Fox posted:

The candidate running on "America Is Already Great" is the change candidate, got it.

America is great because America is good :smuggo:

And America is good, as evidenced by our massive income inequality, deplorable detention centers for refugees from war torn countries, giant military that could destroy the world a hundred times over, legacy of slavery, bounty of homegrown terrorist organizations, and police force that is equipped better than some countrys' military.

But I do suppose we helped defeat the Nazis once so we get a pass on a lot of things.

comingafteryouall has issued a correction as of 17:53 on Nov 19, 2016

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:48

Zoran: Aug 19, 2008; I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!

loquacius posted:

She did adopt Bernie's platform

Well, kinda

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:51

Grey Fox: Jan 5, 2004

comingafteryouall posted:

But I do suppose we helped defeat the Nazis once so we get a pass on a lot of things.

When you ride these coattails for this long, don't be surprised when the Nazis ask for Round 2.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 17:54

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

comingafteryouall posted:

Sure, but I'd rather not continue to give government money to private companies and letting them install more toll roads to "balance our budget", which really just means squeezing more money from the poor.

Nationalize all toll roads.

# ? Nov 19, 2016 18:06