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sarehu posted:By what standards of what makes a programming language good are Forth and APL any good? It is not designed for translating high level mathematical concepts, nor for capturing and reusing best practices, nor for making applications that grandma can use. Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 21:14
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succinctness is a lost virtue
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Nov 20, 2016 21:15
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I haven't looked at APL in any detail but apparently it is what you would get if you took "the unix philosophy" and replaced "text is the universal interface" with "arrays are the universal data structure"
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Nov 20, 2016 21:37
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oh so it's like php
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Nov 20, 2016 22:51
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pokeyman posted:oh so it's like php
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Nov 20, 2016 23:10
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if you can't do all you need with arrays and maps you might just not be trying hard enough
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Nov 20, 2016 23:19
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pokeyman posted:oh so it's like php "What if the world were made of Strings?" -> Tcl. "What if the world were made of cons pairs?" -> Lisp. "What if the world were made of rectangular arrays?" -> APL/J. "What if the world were made of chewing gum and baling wire?" -> PHP. From an educational standpoint, Forth is a good language because it is extremely simple and flexible. A cute metacircular Lisp evaluator fits on about a page, but leaves out many essential details of a functioning interpreter- parsing, garbage collection, the environment structure, etc. You can write a Forth that runs on metal in a few pages of assembly language and actually understand how every piece works in detail. I think it's a valuable intellectual exercise if nothing else. For practical application development anywhere outside embedded systems it's admittedly hard to make a case for Forth. APL and its descendants are good languages because they succinctly capture a good way of thinking about problem solving; notation as a tool of thought. Idiomatic APL is naturally data-parallel and, by virtue of not needing many (if any) control structures, is very easy to test and develop interactively. Modern scientific computing libraries like Pandas are essentially converging towards ideas that first arose in APL, so even if you don't like APL's syntax, I think one could argue that the semantic flavor of these languages is winning out. I've found K to be a lovely language for livecoding and prototyping graphics programs (albeit using my own tools), and I think it is well-suited to a variety of situations where a programmer wants to perform ad-hoc data analysis.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:32
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Internet Janitor posted:For practical application development anywhere outside embedded systems it's admittedly hard to make a case for Forth. Unless you happen to fall into a parallel fantasy land and need to develop a toolkit for magic. https://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Bane-Wiz-Biz-Book-ebook/dp/B00BER5FS0/ref=la_B000AP7R9M_1_1_twi_kin_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1479761139&sr=1-1
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Nov 21, 2016 21:47
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ulmont posted:Unless you happen to fall into a parallel fantasy land and need to develop a toolkit for magic. i read those and hoo boy were they mid-90s baen books
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Nov 21, 2016 22:29
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fritz posted:i read those and hoo boy were they mid-90s baen books Oh yeah. I just remember that the main character is explicitly using Forth for his magical programming.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:14
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ulmont posted:Oh yeah. I just remember that the main character is explicitly using Forth for his magical programming. Pretty much everything I have read about Forth leads me to believe it is dark magic so this makes sense.
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Nov 22, 2016 09:12
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"well i think i've explored everything that can be done with zeros, so i'm going to look into ones now" *time passes* "ones are ridiculous, they're thin and pointy and practically designed for you to hurt yourself. this industry is insane"
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Nov 22, 2016 09:37
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Gazpacho posted:"well i think i've explored everything that can be done with zeros, so i'm going to look into ones now"
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Nov 22, 2016 15:36
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Gazpacho posted:"well i think i've explored everything that can be done with zeros, so i'm going to look into ones now"
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Nov 22, 2016 17:17
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VikingofRock posted:Pretty much everything I have read about Forth leads me to believe it is dark magic so this makes sense. what'd make you think it's dark
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Nov 22, 2016 19:03
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holy poo poo
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Nov 22, 2016 19:11
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if there is one language that you shouldn't read about over trying it is forth, it is literally the easiest thing in the world to learn. spend an hour learning the entire core language, and another hour writing a perfectly competent implementation of it 
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Nov 22, 2016 19:12
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what about fith
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Nov 22, 2016 19:13
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um, im assuming these forth conventions are total sausage fests then?
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Nov 22, 2016 23:35
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:um, im assuming these forth conventions are total sausage fests then? As compared to the more normal gender balance of a perl convention?
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Nov 22, 2016 23:47
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is python still the current hipste?
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Nov 22, 2016 23:59
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no, it is pretty clearly on the way out. matters a bit up in the air on the current hipste though i think the people who determine these things are a bit busy with like disrupting their colons and and driving into semis and similar actually
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Nov 23, 2016 00:00
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:um, im assuming these forth conventions are total sausage fests then? that seems like a very safe assumption for pretty much any programming language convention. llvm has been trying pretty hard to change this for their meetups (and they do have a bunch of female contributors who could potentially attend) but i don't think they've had much success.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:02
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:no, it is pretty clearly on the way out. matters a bit up in the air on the current hipste though python succeeded and made it to the point of being a boring safe choice rather than the cool language you had to fight to be able to use
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Nov 23, 2016 00:03
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Plorkyeran posted:python succeeded and made it to the point of being a boring safe choice rather than the cool language you had to fight to be able to use and then forked it to make python 3
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Nov 23, 2016 00:17
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tef posted:and then forked it to make python 3
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Nov 23, 2016 00:19
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isnt apl still big in a bunch of insurers lots of financial firms use K but kdb is rear end
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Nov 23, 2016 00:34
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Gazpacho posted:I haven't looked at APL in any detail but apparently it is what you would get if you took "the unix philosophy" and replaced "text is the universal interface" with "arrays are the universal data structure" APL: unreadable matlab
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Nov 23, 2016 00:34
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elixir is the current hipste language
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Nov 23, 2016 00:47
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if only we would be so blessed
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Nov 23, 2016 01:04
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Malcolm XML posted:isnt apl still big in a bunch of insurers
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Nov 23, 2016 01:10
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tef posted:and then forked it to make python 3 i actually think python 3 played a key role in helping 2.7 become a safe and boring choice. shops that standardized on 2.7 6 years ago have never had to deal with upgrading to a newer version with all the subtle breaking changes and library incompatibilities and such. things being "stagnant" means that your code doesn't bitrot and you don't have your developers fighting to get version X+1 rolled out so that they can use the shiny new features in that version.
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Nov 23, 2016 01:20
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Gazpacho posted:i never understood why APL derivatives are so big in program trading, like why would you go into such a high-risk business and then undermine your margins by using a platform that has such a tiny talent pool you're looking for an edge over your competitors. you're not going to hire better people, because nobody even knows how to quantify programmer quality let alone measure it. so you look for a magic technology instead.
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Nov 23, 2016 01:22
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Gazpacho posted:i never understood why APL derivatives are so big in program trading, like why would you go into such a high-risk business and then undermine your margins by using a platform that has such a tiny talent pool I imagine it's like how companies companies really, really want to be told they have "big data". mystes fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 02:06
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Gazpacho posted:i never understood why APL derivatives are so big in program trading, like why would you go into such a high-risk business and then undermine your margins by using a platform that has such a tiny talent pool my guess is that APL people tend to be the kind of programmer who can create usable prototype algorithms in a fast way it's not a feature of APL per se, but just a different programming standard that is useful for the industry
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Nov 23, 2016 02:13
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Bloody posted:what about fith forth++
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Nov 23, 2016 02:48
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Plorkyeran posted:that seems like a very safe assumption for pretty much any programming language convention. llvm has been trying pretty hard to change this for their meetups (and they do have a bunch of female contributors who could potentially attend) but i don't think they've had much success. the llvm conference this year had a lot of women attending and speaking, i want to say 40 or so of the 400 total attendees, which is obviously not great in overall proportions but way better than it could be
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Nov 23, 2016 06:00
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:no, it is pretty clearly on the way out. matters a bit up in the air on the current hipste though Go and JavaScript are the current hipste
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Nov 23, 2016 07:08
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Sapozhnik posted:Go and JavaScript are the current hipste Second
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Nov 23, 2016 07:37
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rjmccall posted:the llvm conference this year had a lot of women attending and speaking, i want to say 40 or so of the 400 total attendees, which is obviously not great in overall proportions but way better than it could be ah, that's good to hear
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Nov 23, 2016 07:58
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