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Venom Snake posted:What's bad about this? Seriously: We've studied this, quite extensively, and spreading news about how something is untrue increases the number of people who think it's true. You need to build an actual counter-narrative and promote that instead, you need to go on the attack, you cannot constantly respond. So long as you're responding to what happens instead of driving the conversation, you've already lost.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:16
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Karl Sharks posted:turns out it wasn't a common goal at all! guys i think trump might have been disingenuous during the campaign
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Nov 21, 2016 22:16
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/800807231449169920 the "working with Trump" thing that democrats did was a troll to dare him to actually do the poo poo for the middle class he promissed except for gabbard and wanting to work with trump to bomb muslims, that one was sincere
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Nov 21, 2016 22:17
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Is the infrastructure plan all laced with public private partnerships that we expected?
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Nov 21, 2016 22:16
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Former Everything posted:The Kentucky Democrats sent me a request for a donation today and on facebook shared the Kurt Eichenwald article about how Bernie Sanders would have also lost the GE. This is the same party apparatus that managed to lose a 96-year majority in the House to Republicans, including a Republican who was literally kicked out of the Republican party for being an open racist on social media. Don't give to bad Democrats, give to Keith Ellison.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:17
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Serf posted:really the only answer is counter-propaganda, whether it is factual or not is secondary to it being inflammatory wrapping yourself in delusional lies doesn't make you are more effective. If anything it makes you worse off.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:17
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Al! posted:guys i think trump might have been disingenuous during the campaign "during the campaign" lol
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Nov 21, 2016 22:17
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Karl Sharks posted:anyone? unfortunately this isn't true, because if they were I'd be able to wring their necks
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Nov 21, 2016 22:18
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GlyphGryph posted:No, being "realistic" instead of ambitious and vision oriented is part of why we are in this mess. I say aim high, and if we fall short let it not be said that we were afraid to aim for what we wanted, even if we fall short and only manage to let it rip for 30 seconds that will be 30 seconds more than we otherwise had! You've inspired me. Let'er Rip!
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Nov 21, 2016 22:18
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Optimus Subprime posted:Is the infrastructure plan all laced with public private partnerships that we expected? that and an infrastructure bank that both obama and clinton were trying to make happen
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Nov 21, 2016 22:18
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Optimus Subprime posted:Is the infrastructure plan all laced with public private partnerships that we expected? is this a rhetorical question?
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Nov 21, 2016 22:18
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GlyphGryph posted:Seriously: We've studied this, quite extensively, and spreading news about how something is untrue increases the number of people who think it's true. Alright that I can agree with
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Nov 21, 2016 22:18
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Serf posted:unfortunately this isn't true, because if they were I'd be able to wring their necks silly mortals, corporations have no need for a mortal coil
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Nov 21, 2016 22:18
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comingafteryouall posted:Yeah, they should be sending that money to some fake news propagandist outlets instead. this but unironically. dems will lose until they realize that building a faux media propaganda machine and literally making pie-in-the-sky promises is what wins elections. not transparency or bipartisanship or progressivism or whatever bullshit. lie lie lie lie lie and have fake media outlets perpetrate and normalize your lies. but they will gently caress it up by reaching across the aisle during this clusterfuck of a presidency and, rather than being the opposing party and obstructing everything, be complicit in each and every decision and thus make it easy for Bannon and his cronies to point to the dem involvement as the driving force behind the failure of [the economy|civil rights|environmentalism|etc] and in the next election cycle not only will the dipshit base be riled up to vote out dem lyin' dumbocrats but purity testers and dissenters and whatnot will handwring about deeeeecisions and, paired with widespread and systemic voter suppression from a state and federal level, depress dem voter turnout to ensure that repubs extend the lead and continue to run the score up. just lol if you think nuclear hellfire is the worst-case scenario it can't come soon enough
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Nov 21, 2016 22:19
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Venom Snake posted:What's bad about this? Mostly they should stop posting dumb poo poo to the internet, no one cares. I agree the facts are important but only to those who care about them. And most people don't. If I was running it, I'd have the party doing actual things like improving communities directly in various ways. Going to some poor fucker and saying LOOK AT THESE FACTS doesn't help their daily life. But a Democratic Party run soup kitchen or literally anything that has a physical impact on lives would be better.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:19
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Venom Snake posted:wrapping yourself in delusional lies doesn't make you are more effective. If anything it makes you worse off. lol were you asleep during this last election
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Nov 21, 2016 22:19
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Karl Sharks posted:is this a rhetorical question? Just wanted confirmation, I haven't seen the proposals myself.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:19
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Venom Snake posted:are you really asking why fighting propaganda is important? Venom Snake posted:wrapping yourself in delusional lies doesn't make you are more effective. If anything it makes you worse off. It doesn't have to be delusional counter-propaganda, but it needs to carry it's own message. Carrying the opponents message, annotated, is a surefire path to disaster. Again, this is actually pretty well studied at this point, at least for fringe-science false news propagation. "Corrections" absolutely do not work and actively make the problem worse, because you have to be a vector for the misinformation to do it, and you're always playing catch-up, and it propagates much less effectively. It's utterly self-defeating. Venom Snake posted:Alright that I can agree with Oh, okay, cool. Hahah.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:20
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Venom Snake posted:are you really asking why fighting propaganda is important? fighting propaganda by doing a Politifactcheck several days after the fact reaches none of the people that believed it in the first place and, as mentioned, makes them double down on the original bullshit. it doesn't work
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Nov 21, 2016 22:20
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If anything, truth is more important than ever, but the delivery mechanism for the truth needs to change from "lol you ignorant racist hicks, get woke and CTRL-F Abuela and blow your mind" to something more like "YOU ARE BEING LIED TO". Maybe arrayed around a picture of Sonic the Hedgehog or a big dog or something, I don't know, I don't really speak meme.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:21
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Serf posted:lol were you asleep during this last election he has a point, yeah lying is effective to a point if i told you racism wins elections, would you try to get as many racists into the democratic party as possible? you can't go whole hog with what the GOP has done over the last few decades because then you'll end up becoming the GOP
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Nov 21, 2016 22:21
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/800810798142476288 https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/800810959866626048 GlyphGryph posted:It doesn't have to be delusional counter-propaganda, but it needs to carry it's own message. Carrying the opponents message, annotated, is a surefire path to disaster. Again, this is actually pretty well studied at this point, at least for fringe-science false news propagation. "Corrections" absolutely do not work and actively make the problem worse, because you have to be a vector for the misinformation to do it, and you're always playing catch-up, and it propagates much less effectively. Like I said. I agree! I was just confused from the initial post.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:21
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a lie flies around the world a dozen times before the truth brushes it's teeth in the morning or something like that
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Nov 21, 2016 22:22
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Fullhouse posted:fighting propaganda by doing a Politifactcheck several days after the fact reaches none of the people that believed it in the first place and, as mentioned, makes them double down on the original bullshit. it doesn't work personally i would rather avoid abandoning all hope of ever maintaining even the loosest grip on reality in this country, but that's just me! you can do both (not that the ohio people are, but talking generally now)
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Nov 21, 2016 22:23
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GlyphGryph posted:He was one of the people saying Trump was gonna win because Hillary was running such a poo poo campaign, wasn't he? He's condemning them for it, as far as I can tell. That was what I known for. I may have been pro-Hillary from the start, but I am above all else a realist. I had even settled on a 48-52 Senate weeks before. I was not being glib when I said the Democrats are going to continue to be nothing more than not-Republicans. It's all they can be. The various factions who make up the Democrats coalition are not nearly as willing to make the sort of unholy alliances that the those within the GOP make. Evangelicals aren't going to give a drat about Trump cutting Wall Street regulations, much like the business wing aren't going to care what regressive social bullshit Pence shoves through as long as taxes are cut, and regulations are lifted. Things don't work the same way on the left - so the Democrats are never going to develop much of an identity. This "Bernie-wing" taking over is a silly idea because there is no Bernie-wing of the party, and the only thing that ultimately holds the coalition together is disdain for the Republicans. That tends to tick up after a few years of Republicans running the country, so there is not much the party will do other than wait. Hillary may have lost, but people are acting like the entire Democratic establishment was voted out. If Hillary picked the up extra 100k votes in the mid-west, what would be different as far as the party identity goes? The Democratic Party today is very much the same as it was on November 7.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:23
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GlyphGryph posted:It doesn't have to be delusional counter-propaganda, but it needs to carry it's own message. Carrying the opponents message, annotated, is a surefire path to disaster. Again, this is actually pretty well studied at this point, at least for fringe-science false news propagation. "Corrections" absolutely do not work and actively make the problem worse, because you have to be a vector for the misinformation to do it, and you're always playing catch-up, and it propagates much less effectively. Can you point me to any of the studies you're talking about? I would love to have them in my back pocket when I'm at Dem party meetings and other functions.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:23
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Serf posted:I would be very interested in seeing some articles about how polls were conducted during this last election since the vast majority of them were dead wrong. There are a surprising number of people that think the polling failures were due to a coordinated campaign on the part of Trump supporters to lie about their support to every pollster. I chalked it up to shock at the loss initially, but there are still people out there that genuinely believe that was what caused problems in every state, with every single pollster. I just hope none of the the pollsters themselves are that dumb.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:24
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Venom Snake posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/800810798142476288 the obama 2012 campaign had tons of ads about closing factories in the rust belt. i'm trying to think of a single hillary ad that has really stuck with me and the only thing i can think of is the fight song one lol
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Nov 21, 2016 22:24
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Also, inviting Tulsi Gabbard was probably Bannon's idea of loving with the progressive/Bernie bro base by having one of Bernie's supporters (who has her own issues) showing up and talking to djt. I don't recommend getting too caught up in any personality cult worship, just focus on the actual progressive movement itself.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:24
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Venom Snake posted:What's bad about this? Trying to correct lies after theyve already been said and gone around the block a few times is a losing game. You need to be proactive and present a positive alternative to Trump, rather than reacting after the fact. Nobody is motivated by attempts to shame the other guy. Well, hardcore assholes that were already on your side I guess, but then they were already on your side so nobody *new* is motivated by shame. In fact the Democratic Party would probably be better served if it dropped shame from its arsenal altogether and confined its efforts to only trying to provide a positive alternate vision. DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/800807231449169920 If Trump had put forth an infrastructure plan Bernie might have been willing to work with him. Instead Trump put forth a corporate welfare plan with zero provisions for rebuilding failing infrastructure that didn't have a fat payday attached to it. So there's nothing to really work with.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:25
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Karl Barks posted:the obama 2012 campaign had tons of ads about closing factories in the rust belt. i'm trying to think of a single hillary ad that has really stuck with me and the only thing i can think of is the fight song one lol the disabled kid/reporter one, the piano contractor, the one where it was just a bunch of kids watching trump talk, the one with the old black(?) woman tbf idk how many of these got on the air since i don't want much cable TV
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Nov 21, 2016 22:25
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Serf posted:really the only answer is counter-propaganda, whether it is factual or not is secondary to it being inflammatory This. We live in a post-truth world. We can either accept that and get in the game of narrative creation, or we can be pendants and be ruled by Trumps for the rest of this planet's dwindling life. We seriously need Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson standing on a stage promising to end all wars and crush global warming for good in his first 100 days as president. Anything short of that, including Bernie Sanders type democratic socialism, will fail.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:26
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There is an Orlando Democrats meeting tonight at 7pm at the IBEW Union Hall on Virginia Drive. 820 Virginia Dr, Orlando, FL 32803 Come try to change the party for the better. No agenda has been publicly set. Let's make one. platzapS has issued a correction as of 22:31 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 22:26
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GlyphGryph posted:It doesn't have to be delusional counter-propaganda, but it needs to carry it's own message. Carrying the opponents message, annotated, is a surefire path to disaster. Again, this is actually pretty well studied at this point, at least for fringe-science false news propagation. "Corrections" absolutely do not work and actively make the problem worse, because you have to be a vector for the misinformation to do it, and you're always playing catch-up, and it propagates much less effectively. Yeah, I agree one hundred percent with this. There needs to be something in addition that combats the idea that the Trumps of the world are the only people who care about folks and their problems, though, especially since the next election is likely to be a referendum on Trump's empty promises, but also on Why The gently caress Should We Trust You Assholes Who Completely Ignored Us In 2016. We need a solid answer to that question, and "that was just the Neoliberals, we're the Progressives" isn't going to cut it.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:26
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Karl Sharks posted:he has a point, yeah lying is effective to a point depending on who you ask, this is actually the current Dem strategy 
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Nov 21, 2016 22:27
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platzapS posted:There is an Orlando Democrats meeting tonight at 7pm at the IBEW Union Hall on Virginia Drive. Wish I could be there. Still stuck up in VA for now.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:27
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GlyphGryph posted:It doesn't have to be delusional counter-propaganda, but it needs to carry it's own message. Carrying the opponents message, annotated, is a surefire path to disaster. Again, this is actually pretty well studied at this point, at least for fringe-science false news propagation. "Corrections" absolutely do not work and actively make the problem worse, because you have to be a vector for the misinformation to do it, and you're always playing catch-up, and it propagates much less effectively. they work with people who aren't on one side already, so the idea shouldn't be abandoned entirely both tactics have their place
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Nov 21, 2016 22:28
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docbeard posted:If anything, truth is more important than ever, but the delivery mechanism for the truth needs to change from "lol you ignorant racist hicks, get woke and CTRL-F Abuela and blow your mind" to something more like "YOU ARE BEING LIED TO". them lyin' dumbocrats tellin' me I'm bein' lied to but I read on truthwatchforjustice.nz.rus that dumbocrats eat children's organs on pizza or something and alex jones says that obummer and killary are demons and Hannity keeps sayin' that Trump will bring my job back and them immigrants who are simultaneously on welfare and taking my job will be thrown out by trebuchet so I know who I'm listenin' to!
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Nov 21, 2016 22:28
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quote==/== edit
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Nov 21, 2016 22:28
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quote=/=edit
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Nov 21, 2016 22:28
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