fidel castro apologist observation thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > fidel castro apologist observation thread

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

My points aren't even being argued. This is all boiling down to an endless tu quoque.

That's exactly what Bulgogi Hoagie was saying, and it's why I addressed him directly.

actually Fidel is literally a communist monster from the same line as Stalin, Khrushchev and mao. im unironically going to state that whatever good these people did will never ever justify the atrocities and purges they have committed, hth

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:01

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# ? May 21, 2024 02:48

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

punk rebel ecks posted:

Wasn't North Korea developing very well until the mid 70s, even surpassing South Korea? What happened?

The population of North Korea apparently outgrew its capacity to grow, store, and distribute food, arming itself to defend against the massive US-ROK forces on its border in the seventies presumably got increasingly expensive as weapons technology was changing very quickly at the time, and aid from China and the USSR tailed off, which caused the whole economy to collapse as a result (this is a guess because we will never find out the truth, but it is probably an accurate guess).

It also couldn't really export its heavy manufactured goods to China, partly because they were kinda enemies and partly because China was trying to develop its own industry, while the DPRK's eastern bloc buds like East Germany were loving miles away and COMECON was probably charging a fair whack to send goods from Pyongyang to East Berlin when the price of energy was so high due to the oil crisis (again a guess but might be right?).

Meanwhile the South had a very ready supply of aid from the US and eventually Japan which allowed it to industrialise despite its lack of mineral wealth, which is all in the north of the peninsula (the ROK has all the good farmland). South Korea got about as much US aid between 1948-78 as the whole of Africa, because it was an extremely staunch US ally (it was the third largest pro-RVN force in the Vietnam War, including the RVN itself), and it invested it well. Rural people flocking to the cities due to the green revolution freeing up labour as this happened and zero political freedom until the late eighties meant there was also pretty much cheap-as-free labour to exploit to make their industrialisation happen on a budget.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:05

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

steinrokkan posted:

A country that can't keep its people alive without external charity, slavery and cross border criminal activities is not working.

1) There are foreign charities providing vital services to impoverished children in the United States, while 2) undocumented workers are illegally exploited for slave wages in sweatshops, or American capital relies on foreign slave labor to produce cheap goods, and 3) a lot of workers use meth to keep up productivity at their menial jobs, and an international drug trade is the only source of livable incomes for hundreds of thousands of people in economic abandonment zones.

Nobody however, is going to argue that the United States economy doesn't work. It may not be working well for most of the people who live in it, but it works in whole as a system. The North Koreans say the exact same poo poo in their propaganda outlets, talking about how the United States has millions of people going hungry while Pyeongyang has fried chicken & beer cruises. If the North Korean economy didn't work, then the whole country would have collapsed, which should have been happening any day now for the last 4 decades. Conditions in North Korea won't ever improve by maintaining a strict line on embargo to push the country into systemic collapse. They adjusted to the realities of isolation after they lost trade with the Soviet Union in the 90s and were hit by a famine.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:06

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

1) There are foreign charities providing vital services to impoverished children in the United States, while 2) undocumented workers are illegally exploited for slave wages in sweatshops, or American capital relies on foreign slave labor to produce cheap goods, and 3) a lot of workers use meth to keep up productivity at their menial jobs, and an international drug trade is the only source of livable incomes for hundreds of thousands of people in economic abandonment zones.

Congrats on your dual Nobel Prize in Sophistry and False Equivalency.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:07

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

1) There are foreign charities providing vital services to impoverished children in the United States, while 2) undocumented workers are illegally exploited for slave wages in sweatshops, or American capital relies on foreign slave labor to produce cheap goods, and 3) a lot of workers use meth to keep up productivity at their menial jobs, and an international drug trade is the only source of livable incomes for hundreds of thousands of people in economic abandonment zones.

Nobody however, is going to argue that the United States economy doesn't work. It may not be working well for most of the people who live in it, but it works in whole as a system. The North Koreans say the exact same poo poo in their propaganda outlets, talking about how the United States has millions of people going hungry while Pyeongyang has fried chicken & beer cruises. If the North Korean economy didn't work, then the whole country would have collapsed, which should have been happening any day now for the last 4 decades. Conditions in North Korea won't ever improve by maintaining a strict line on embargo to push the country into systemic collapse. They adjusted to the realities of isolation after they lost trade with the Soviet Union in the 90s and were hit by a famine.

can't you see, they're just as bad as one another! also international trade is totally based on slave labour! I know this because I know nothing about how stringently businesses vet factories they work with in china!

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:12

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

steinrokkan posted:

Congrats on your dual Nobel Prize in Sophistry and False Equivalency.

The point is that your definition of a working economy doesn't add up. Slavery worked, feudalism worked, even national socialism "worked." Whether or not an economy works isn't dependent on a quality of life index or your definition of economic justice. If you want to say that North Korea's economy is bad, then you're not going to get any arguments from me. I've said that the conditions are bad multiple times.

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

can't you see, they're just as bad as one another! also international trade is totally based on slave labour! I know this because I know nothing about how stringently businesses vet factories they work with in china!

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/bangladesh-factory-fire-death-toll-rises-31-160912064542939.html

Tampaco Foils Lmtd. manufactures packaging for Nestle and British American Tobacco.

Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 23:23 on Nov 26, 2016

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:14

Lastgirl: Sep 7, 1997; Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!

Fidel Cuckstro posted:

Of the US Presidents that serverd while Castro was in power, how many were more evil than Fidel, and how many were less evil?

I have to check the aggregator in People Magazine

Karl Barks posted:

i read cspam for the nuance of the arguments

lol

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:17

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

jBrereton posted:

The population of North Korea apparently outgrew its capacity to grow, store, and distribute food, arming itself to defend against the massive US-ROK forces on its border in the seventies presumably got increasingly expensive as weapons technology was changing very quickly at the time, and aid from China and the USSR tailed off, which caused the whole economy to collapse as a result (this is a guess because we will never find out the truth, but it is probably an accurate guess).

It also couldn't really export its heavy manufactured goods to China, partly because they were kinda enemies and partly because China was trying to develop its own industry, while the DPRK's eastern bloc buds like East Germany were loving miles away and COMECON was probably charging a fair whack to send goods from Pyongyang to East Berlin when the price of energy was so high due to the oil crisis (again a guess but might be right?).

Meanwhile the South had a very ready supply of aid from the US and eventually Japan which allowed it to industrialise despite its lack of mineral wealth, which is all in the north of the peninsula (the ROK has all the good farmland). South Korea got about as much US aid between 1948-78 as the whole of Africa, because it was an extremely staunch US ally (it was the third largest pro-RVN force in the Vietnam War, including the RVN itself), and it invested it well. Rural people flocking to the cities due to the green revolution freeing up labour as this happened and zero political freedom until the late eighties meant there was also pretty much cheap-as-free labour to exploit to make their industrialisation happen on a budget.

I see. It seems that North Korea bet on the wrong horse.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:18

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

Stay safe Castro Ghost.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:20

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The point is that your definition of a working economy doesn't add up. Slavery worked, feudalism worked, even national socialism "worked." Whether or not an economy works isn't dependent on a quality of life index or your definition of economic justice. If you want to say that North Korea's economy is bad, then you're not going to get any arguments from me. I've said that the conditions are bad multiple times.

You don't have to jump to defense of North Korea by making disingenuous comparisons between it and the US to make your point that socialism could be a remedy to social problems.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:23

DoctorGonzo: Jul 25, 2016; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Yinlock posted:

please rate the evil of us presidents on the Castro Scale

Nixon gave us Pinochet. Its not fair to Castro.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:25

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

punk rebel ecks posted:

I see. It seems that North Korea bet on the wrong horse.

it's working out pretty well for dear leader

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:25

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

DoctorGonzo posted:

Nixon gave us Pinochet. Its not fair to Castro.

the Castro Scale only knows cold hard logic, not your concept of "fairnesS"

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:26

DoctorGonzo: Jul 25, 2016; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

As a chilean Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan are worse than Fidel Castro.

Add to the evil scale Kissinger, Friedmann, Hayek and Margaret Thatcher.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:28

Lastgirl: Sep 7, 1997; Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!

steinrokkan posted:

You don't have to jump to defense of North Korea by making disingenuous comparisons between it and the US to make your point that socialism could be a remedy to social problems.

democratic socialism is insanely good (see: Norway)

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:29

Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

Do the workers own the means in Norway?

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:31

Fidel Cuckstro: Jul 2, 2007

Hola, Amigos.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:31

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

Lastgirl posted:

democratic socialism is insanely good (see: Norway)

i think even the most insane republican will probably agree with that, but a Marxist might take offence

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:32

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

steinrokkan posted:

You don't have to jump to defense of North Korea by making disingenuous comparisons between it and the US to make your point that socialism could be a remedy to social problems.

I'm not defending North Korea. I'm trying to put it in a proper context, so that it can be properly evaluated. They're a radically isolated state placed under an international embargo, with insufficient internal resources to sustain a growing population, and still manage to maintain their existence in the face of an overwhelming existential threat. That doesn't mean North Korea is great, and we should all be like North Korea. It means that if North Korea can survive in spite of its endemic poverty as a country, imagine what the United States could be capable of on a socialist path.

A similar argument can be made for Cuba. They're much smaller than the United States, have far fewer resources, and aren't nearly as wealthy, but they still exceed the United States on several indices because of the direction of a socialist system that values the common security above all else. Which is far more than could ever be said for North Korea.

The point is that the limitations of these countries are fundamentally material.

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

i think even the most insane republican will probably agree with that, but a Marxist might take offence

There's no way you're an American, my dude.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:39

logikv9: Mar 5, 2009; Ham Wrangler

give me enough guns and religion and i can have a country too

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:42

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

I'm not defending North Korea. I'm trying to put it in a proper context, so that it can be properly evaluated. They're a radically isolated state placed under an international embargo, with insufficient internal resources to sustain a growing population, and still manage to maintain their existence in the face of an overwhelming existential threat.

So did Cambodia despite killing what, a third of its population? In this day and age a country can survive extremely easily as long as nobody is interested to meddle in its internal affairs and it gets its oppression apparatus to wrk efficiently enough.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:46

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

logikv9 posted:

give me enough guns and religion and i can have a country too

Literally true.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:46

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

i think even the most insane republican will probably agree with that, but a Marxist might take offence

haha what

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:49

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

steinrokkan posted:

So did Cambodia despite killing what, a third of its population? In this day and age a country can survive extremely easily as long as nobody is interested to meddle in its internal affairs and it gets its oppression apparatus to wrk efficiently enough.

The Khmer Rouge didn't survive their existential threat tho. Khmer rule only lasted 3 years.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:50

Fidel Cuckstro: Jul 2, 2007

steinrokkan posted:

In this day and age a country can survive extremely easily as long as nobody is interested to meddle in its internal affairs and it gets its oppression apparatus to wrk efficiently enough.

Isn't this thread about Cuba though?

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:50

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

actually Fidel is literally a communist monster from the same line as Stalin, Khrushchev and mao. im unironically going to state that whatever good these people did will never ever justify the atrocities and purges they have committed, hth

By that same logic the US is forever irredeemable due to the actions of the military/CIA and our longstanding policy of massacring people who stand in the way if our puppet regimes.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:53

DoctorGonzo: Jul 25, 2016; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Vox Nihili posted:

By that same logic the US is forever irredeemable due to the actions of the military/CIA and our longstanding policy of massacring people who stand in the way if our puppet regimes.

Yes

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:54

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The Khmer Rouge didn't survive their existential threat tho. Khmer rule only lasted 3 years.

Only because a neighbor actually had enough balls to invade.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:56

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Fidel Cuckstro posted:

Isn't this thread about Cuba though?

Van't discuss CUba without having a debate on what constitutes socialism.

# ? Nov 26, 2016 23:57

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

steinrokkan posted:

Only because a neighbor actually had enough balls to invade.

Yeah, and they couldn't resist the invasion because Khmer Rouge ideology was a completely backwards ethnic nationalist movement. They killed all of their intellectuals, and abandoned what little industry they had in the cities. Which meant they were practically picking a fight with the Vietnamese with sticks and rocks. They took on the mantle of a modern Western ideology while rejecting everything that was both modern and western. It was an insane movement of crazed hicks that can't be compared to any other existing government of the 20th century.

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:00

Morzhovyye: Mar 2, 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-9UnAPhiyw

:sadwave:

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:09

Fidel Cuckstro: Jul 2, 2007

I do have to wonder- what did everyday Fidel smell like?

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:11

Fallen Hamprince: Nov 12, 2016

DoctorGonzo posted:

As a chilean Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan are worse than Fidel Castro.

Add to the evil scale Kissinger, Friedmann, Hayek and Margaret Thatcher.

Salma Hayek Did Nothing Wrong

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:12

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Yeah, and they couldn't resist the invasion because Khmer Rouge ideology was a completely backwards ethnic nationalist movement. They killed all of their intellectuals, and abandoned what little industry they had in the cities. Which meant they were practically picking a fight with the Vietnamese with sticks and rocks. They took on the mantle of a modern Western ideology while rejecting everything that was both modern and western. It was an insane movement of crazed hicks that can't be compared to any other existing government of the 20th century.

Much like juche, another explicitly nationalist bullshit form of government that punishes intellectuals and independent thought, except it also enjoyed massive foreighn supprt during its formative years, which it used to survive til this day. And now it only provides for its own elites b violating its own tenets, which, if followed, would have led the country to absolute famine madness.

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:17

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

can't you see, they're just as bad as one another! also international trade is totally based on slave labour! I know this because I know nothing about how stringently businesses vet factories they work with in china!

lol

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:17

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

China is an example of a working one party socialist system with a rapidly growing economy that supports its middle class.

But also doing business in China means supporting literal slavery.

Also I love cognitive dissonance.

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:21

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

i don't have a comment on the other stuff but the "dprk is on meth all the time" thing is pure fabrication

anyway here's something relevant as, big shocker, the liberal turds have deflected from fidel onto other examples of actually existing socialism when they find browbeating people they disagree with doesn't work for the thread's topic

https://www.facebook.com/helen.yaffe.9/videos/1780345018896436/

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:22

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

can't you see, they're just as bad as one another! also international trade is totally based on slave labour! I know this because I know nothing about how stringently businesses vet factories they work with in china!

Holy poo poo I missed this one lmfao.

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:23

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Homework Explainer posted:

i don't have a comment on the other stuff but the "dprk is on meth all the time" thing is pure fabrication

anyway here's something relevant as, big shocker, the liberal turds have deflected from fidel onto other examples of actually existing socialism when they find browbeating people they disagree with doesn't work for the thread's topic

https://www.facebook.com/helen.yaffe.9/videos/1780345018896436/

Of course they aren't on meth. They sell it.

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:24

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# ? May 21, 2024 02:48

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The point is that the limitations of these countries are fundamentally material.

material wealth is much easier to accumulate with rule of law and well-functioning institutions hth

# ? Nov 27, 2016 00:27

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