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Volkerball posted:On the other hand, I'm sure there's plenty of people in Rojava who haven't forgotten the Qamishli riots, or that the regime didn't recognize them as citizens, and arrested and tortured political dissidents and people who committed such grave crimes as wearing traditional Kurdish dress. You see them protest every now and again, but it's not like the PYD has any obligation to represent them. 
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Nov 27, 2016 16:24
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I see we're going full post-truth in this thread now huh.
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Nov 27, 2016 16:39
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Volkerball posted:I see we're going full post-truth in this thread now huh. Yes in the sense that you're making up lies like "the PYD is refusing any sort of KRG presence within Rojava" when pesh have already operated in Rojava multiple times and the KRG itself has admitted that they were willing to let in pesh indefinitely as long as they were stationed west of the Euphrates rather than in PYD territory.
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Nov 27, 2016 16:43
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Warbadger posted:Speaking of which, Sinteres' promised us a new 100k strong veteran ninja milita army was reinforcing the siege of Aleppo a few months back. I guess they got lost or something because it still looks like a grinding siege... Poor timing on this one. It seems that Northeast Aleppo is falling.
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Nov 27, 2016 16:46
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Volkerball posted:They've forced opposition political parties to leave Rojava, they've banned news outlets from reporting within their territory on ideological grounds, smashed and burned poo poo on ethnic grounds, and refused to allow in refugees on ethnic and ideological grounds. Simply put, they have a long track record of ruling with an iron fist. Volkerball posted:Oh word? The KRG is repressive? I had no idea. My point is that had the PYD allowed in political opposition, the government in Rojava would look different. And in looking different, it might not have been so objectionable to Turkey. That's fairly likely considering that in this hypothetical, you have a government that's got a sort of power sharing agreement with the PKK rather than "literally is the PKK." And the KRG and Turkey are outright allies. The KRG has consistently sided with Turkey on matters related to the PKK, although as diplomatically as they can. Keep in mind that when Sinjar and everything was going on, the PYD were trying to undermine the KRG and develop cantons inside Iraq, while simultaneously refusing any sort of KRG presence within Rojava. The PKK were also blowing up oil pipelines between the KRG and Turkey to sabotage the economic deals between the two. I don't think there's anyone familiar with relations between the KRG and Turkey who would tell you that if things continued to degrade in Iraq and the KRG became fully independent, that Turkey would go to war to prevent it. I doubt they would have any issues with it at all given Turkey's hostility towards the central government in Iraq. It's strictly a PKK phenomenon. Ok well, maybe it has changed since I last read up on KRG, but last I recall it was an oligarchy dominated by two families. If you're talking about PYD wanting to limit the influence of KRG oligarchs by banning the parties they fund, then uhh yeah that seems entirely reasonable to me. Absolute political freedom isn't an absolutely positive thing, it just allows for different people to accumulate power. If you're trying to build a civil society from the ground up, letting outsiders fund political parties that advocate for their interests is going to have entirely predictable results. If that's Turkey's excuse for attacking Rojava then ok cool, I'm fine with that. Why would PYD be obliged to let KRG have influence in Rojava? Like you said, KRG has consistently sided with Turkey on all matters regarding PKK and YPG, they are clearly hostile to PYD as a whole. So what I'm getting from this that you yourself admit that the reason why Turkey is attacking Rojava is because PYD denied her allies in the KRG direct political influence in Rojava. That's not an issue of political freedoms mate, that's just naked power politics. Turkey wants the Kurds of Rojava to submit to their hegemony and allow KRG to control their politics, and PYD says no. Dunno what the issue you have here is.
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Nov 27, 2016 16:47
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Friendly Humour posted:Could I have some sources for all this? I don't remember reading about any this in the thread. What news channels have been banned, and what parties? I mean, if it's about Turkish state propaganda machine not being allowed to operate in Rojava then lmao. States practice censorship during war, it's entirely acceptable for any reasonable person. They've banned Rudaw, the main KDP outlet, on and off a few times. I'm not sure if the ban is active at the moment and it's definitely a lie that there's no independent media in Rojava. Even most KDP outlets get along fine. Thug Lessons fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 16:57
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Thug Lessons posted:They've banned Rudaw, the main KDP outlet, on and off a few times. Have they banned anyone else? Because that seems to me like an entirely reasonable thing to do.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:01
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Oh and KRG has press bans too. They just banned Al Jazeera's Iraq editor a few weeks ago. And of course in Turkey everything Kurdish is banned.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:01
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Friendly Humour posted:Have they banned anyone else? Because that seems to me like an entirely reasonable thing to do. I'm not sure but pro-rebel organizations like Aleppo24 and pro-KDP ones like Kurdistan24 operate freely. There might be some minor outlets that got banned but of the big ones I think it's just Rudaw.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:03
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Thug Lessons posted:Yeah, except for that one little kerfuffle when Turkey invaded the KRG with Saddam's help. Which time? The 1992 incursion was backed militarily by the KDP and PUK who agreed to assist militarily to weaken the PKK, the 97 incursions specifically assisted the KDP to consolidate their control of territory against the PKK against the backdrop of the Kurdish civil war. Saddam's Iraq routinely complained to the UNSC about Turkish incursions from 1995 and did not support them (even when they briefly extended militarily support to Barzani during the civil war)
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Nov 27, 2016 17:07
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kustomkarkommando posted:Which time? The 1992 incursion was backed militarily by the KDP and PUK who agreed to assist militarily to weaken the PKK, the 97 incursions specifically assisted the KDP to consolidate their control of territory against the PKK against the backdrop of the Kurdish civil war. Saddam's Iraq routinely complained to the UNSC about Turkish incursions from 1995 and did not support them (even when they briefly extended militarily support to Barzani during the civil war) I was referring to the one during the civil war.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:13
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Friendly Humour posted:Could I have some sources for all this? I don't remember reading about any this in the thread. What news channels have been banned, and what parties? I mean, if it's about Turkish state propaganda machine not being allowed to operate in Rojava then lmao. States practice censorship during war, it's entirely acceptable for any reasonable person. Rudaw and Orient were banned. Neither is a Turkish mouthpiece, and Rudaw specifically was banned domestically in Turkey for being pro-PKK. They simply don't function as PYD state media, and so, were pushed out. https://cpj.org/2015/08/outlets-banned-in-bahrain-and-syria-over-allegatio.php As far as politics, it's really complicated due to the intricate web of relationships between parties in Rojava that have been forged over the last several decades. But basically anyone that doesn't toe the PYD line are fair game. They arrested and deported the head of the KNC with no explanation not long ago. http://aranews.net/2016/08/tensions-escalate-kurdish-parties-syria/ quote:Ok well, maybe it has changed since I last read up on KRG, but last I recall it was an oligarchy dominated by two families. If you're talking about PYD wanting to limit the influence of KRG oligarchs by banning the parties they fund, then uhh yeah that seems entirely reasonable to me. Absolute political freedom isn't an absolutely positive thing, it just allows for different people to accumulate power. If you're trying to build a civil society from the ground up, letting outsiders fund political parties that advocate for their interests is going to have entirely predictable results. If that's Turkey's excuse for attacking Rojava then ok cool, I'm fine with that. Why would PYD be obliged to let KRG have influence in Rojava? Like you said, KRG has consistently sided with Turkey on all matters regarding PKK and YPG, they are clearly hostile to PYD as a whole. No, the reason Turkey is antagonistic to the PYD is because they are the PKK, and there's a whole can of worms behind Turkish/PKK relations. That the PYD aggressively seized control and deport opposition to themselves just ensured that Rojava would bind itself to that can of worms. And I wouldn't disagree with your interpretation if the PYD hadn't refused to negotiate with the Arab opposition, and established such a sectarian, nationalist platform. But as it stands, the KNC were the only ones seeking diplomatic routes to be a part of the solution in the whole of Syria, and the PYD pushed them out. In Geneva, the KNC were present as part of the SNC back when it was still kicking, and PYD propaganda was just going off about the audacity of the negotiation committee to hold negotiations with "no Kurds," which was a clear attempt to make things sectarian. To convince people that the world was opposed to them on ethnic grounds, as justification to denounce the very concept of negotiation and diplomatic solutions. They weren't interested in such things, despite having a small population in a desolate region with no industry or resources to speak of. Only independence on the terms of sectarian Kurdish nationalists. It was a shortsighted, foolish move, and it'll come back to bite them.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:17
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Also you're being pretty weaselly here in pretending that they only cared about the PKK. They fought both PKK and PUK and "counter-terrorism" was only one objective with the other more important one being the creation of the KRG we see today: a Turkish client state that serves as a political bulwark as well as a captive market.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:18
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Volkerball posted:Rudaw and Orient were banned. Neither is a Turkish mouthpiece, and Rudaw specifically was banned domestically in Turkey for being pro-PKK. They simply don't function as PYD state media, and so, were pushed out. How about Aleppo24, Kurdistan24, Xeber24, BasNews, ANA and all the rest? Are those supposed to be "PYD state media"?
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Nov 27, 2016 17:19
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Thug Lessons posted:Also you're being pretty weaselly here in pretending that they only cared about the PKK. They fought both PKK and PUK and "counter-terrorism" was only one objective with the other more important one being the creation of the KRG we see today: a Turkish client state that serves as a political bulwark as well as a captive market. The KRG as a bulwark against PKK influence has always been a major interest and was why the specifically intervened to assist the KDP in 97, the captive market element was frankly inevitable due to Kurdish relations with Iraqi central government and Iranian sanctions - even before the civil war broke out the region had become extremely economically reliant on Turkey and black market trading and Turkey was very much interested in maintaining the flow of illicit goods (especially oil). I guess you could advance an argument that its moves against the PUK where to head off Iranian economic influence but Turkey didn't have any problems with hammering a deal out with them during the Ankara process.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:29
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Ibrahim Biro is a piece of poo poo and I'm glad he's gone. PYD had a power-sharing arrangement with him but Barzani tore it up, which led the PYD to retaliate.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:30
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kustomkarkommando posted:The KRG as a bulwark against PKK influence has always been a major interest and was why the specifically intervened to assist the KDP in 97, the captive market element was frankly inevitable due to Kurdish relations with Iraqi central government and Iranian sanctions - even before the civil war broke out the region had become extremely economically reliant on Turkey and black market trading and Turkey was very much interested in maintaining the flow of illicit goods (especially oil). I guess you could advance an argument that its moves against the PUK where to head off Iranian economic influence but Turkey didn't have any problems with hammering a deal out with them during the Ankara process. It's not inevitable, it's constructed by the KDP. PUK have been howling for ages that Kurdistan needs three pipelines: one going to Turkey, another to Iran, and another to Basra. KDP is only interested in Turkey for deeply suspect reasons, and it's been an economic disaster. Something like 80% of Turkish imports are food and luxury goods consumed in the KRG rather than re-exported with value added.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:38
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Volkerball posted:Rudaw and Orient were banned. Neither is a Turkish mouthpiece, and Rudaw specifically was banned domestically in Turkey for being pro-PKK. They simply don't function as PYD state media, and so, were pushed out. So far you've brought up two news channels, both of which are the mouthpieces of the oligarchs of KRG, and the political party they funded (KNC is not an independent political party). That's not an issue of political or press freedom, it's an issue of not allowing foreign parties nakedly hostile to the PYD to operate in Rojava. Which is fine? What's the problem here? They weren't banned because they didn't toe the line, they were banned because they were an extension of the KRG oligarchs, if you read between the lines on those articles. If you can bring up an example of opposition being suppressed that is not directly linked to KRG oligarchs, I would certainly reconsider my views, but this seems like a pretty clear case for me. KNC represented the interests of KRG in the SNC, so it is indeed correct to claim that no Syrian Kurds were represented there. How is the PYD sectarian though? I thought local self-autonomy and self-government was their whole point. If they are just a bunch of racist Kurdish supremacists, could you give an example of the PYD repressing ethnic minorities within the areas that the YPG has conquered? Is Manbij governed by Kurds or something?
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Nov 27, 2016 17:40
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Can we get a show of hands? How many members of the al-Qaeda Fan Club who think the PYD is evil for banning Rudaw are also up in arms about "fake news"?
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Nov 27, 2016 17:50
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Thug Lessons posted:It's not inevitable, it's constructed by the KDP. PUK have been howling for ages that Kurdistan needs three pipelines: one going to Turkey, another to Iran, and another to Basra. KDP is only interested in Turkey for deeply suspect reasons, and it's been an economic disaster. Something like 80% of Turkish imports are food and luxury goods consumed in the KRG rather than re-exported with value added. Well exporting crude oil through Iran kind of hit some significant snags what with the embargoes and its only recently become viable again, exporting oil via the national infrastructure hits into the furious debates about national profit sharing which the PUK was not entirely removed from. Most of their complaints have been how the KDP have monopolized oil exportation profits, the fact that they have been implemented in several dodgy trucked oil exports to Iran and similar under the table dealings as the KDP should raise an eyebrow or two - the likelihood of a long term economic deal with Iran to handle oil exportation in the mid-2000s considering the KRG's position with Iraq and relationship with the USA wasn't particularly high I would say
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Nov 27, 2016 17:54
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Thug Lessons posted:al-Qaeda Fan Club Jabhat al Goonsra
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Nov 27, 2016 17:59
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Hezbollah map of regime et al. East Aleppo advances today. https://twitter.com/C_Military1/status/802908556710309892 Looks like the rebels are consolidating to the southern half, but at this rate Aleppo might be finished before Mosul.
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Nov 27, 2016 18:03
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Friendly Humour posted:So far you've brought up two news channels, both of which are the mouthpieces of the oligarchs of KRG, and the political party they funded (KNC is not an independent political party). That's not an issue of political or press freedom, it's an issue of not allowing foreign parties nakedly hostile to the PYD to operate in Rojava. Which is fine? What's the problem here? They weren't banned because they didn't toe the line, they were banned because they were an extension of the KRG oligarchs, if you read between the lines on those articles. If you can bring up an example of opposition being suppressed that is not directly linked to KRG oligarchs, I would certainly reconsider my views, but this seems like a pretty clear case for me. KNC represented the interests of KRG in the SNC, so it is indeed correct to claim that no Syrian Kurds were represented there. The PYD has consistently pursued a policy of Kurdish autonomy throughout the conflict, seeking accommodation with the regime when possible and refusing to commit to the wider Syrian revolution. Volkerball has cited instances in the early revolution when Syrian secret police were allowed to operate freely within PYD controlled territory. Their stance has always been to seek to advance the interests of Syria's Kurdish population first, before commitment to the revolution or any pan-Syrian objectives. I think for this reason you can fairly call them sectarian. I don't think that is a fair criticism of the organization however. PYD exists to advance the interests of Syria's Kurds, and the opposition was never willing to offer the kinds of concessions on autonomy they wanted. Given the bloody history of tyrants and Arabs/Alawites crushing opposition under the banner of Syrian unity, they were right to view similar claims of brotherhood from the rebels with skepticism.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:03
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Thug Lessons posted:Can we get a show of hands? How many members of the al-Qaeda Fan Club who think the PYD is evil for banning Rudaw are also up in arms about "fake news"? Can we get a show of hands? How many people think using terms like "al-Qaeda Fan Club" is going to bolster any kind of useful conversations/debates between two opposing sides?
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Nov 27, 2016 19:06
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Iraq accepting Hezbollah as part of their army kind of sort of sounds like a recipe for disaster further down the line.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:18
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uncleKitchener posted:Iraq accepting Hezbollah as part of their army kind of sort of sounds like a recipe for disaster further down the line. They're not actually doing that. That was someone calling the PMU "Iraqi Hezbollah" to smear them.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:21
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Thug Lessons posted:They're not actually doing that. That was someone calling the PMU "Iraqi Hezbollah" to smear them. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:23
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Squalid posted:Volkerball has cited instances in the early revolution when Syrian secret police were allowed to operate freely within PYD controlled territory. Where? How long did that continue? Are secret police members still allowed in PYD territory? Was it really actually PYD and not some local Assad cronies in charge of the area before the PYD took over? The PYD was persecuted by Assad's regime for years before the war kicked off. Being a party founded by Kurds it's kinda inevitable that they'd be mostly concerned by the interests of their members. That's not secterianism. The Amnesty report aside, everything I've heard about their conduct in areas the YPG has liberated from Daesh points to them building links with the locals, Kurd or not. They can't really be called secterianists if they seem concerned enough about the locals to set up local self-government in areas they capture and seem genuinely interested in fostering autonomy in non-Kurdish areas. As for not taking on Assad... Well, can ya blame them? Volkerball was just criticizing them for making enemies of everyone around them, you can't have it both ways. Assad is literally the Devil in human skins, but if he's the only neighbour who at the moment isn't moving in to attack them, it's not really fair to criticise them for not making him into an enemy as well. I still don't understand why the FSA declared war on PYD though. It's not like they don't have former regime servants and military regiments fighting under their flag.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:27
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I'm a white person from America/Serbia and Arabs need dictators!!!
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Nov 27, 2016 19:27
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Even by this thread's standards that's a terrible strawman.Thug Lessons posted:They're not actually doing that. That was someone calling the PMU "Iraqi Hezbollah" to smear them. afaik it's not meant to be a smear, it's just that one of the PMU brigades is also named Hezbollah.
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Nov 27, 2016 19:43
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Friendly Humour posted:I still don't understand why the FSA declared war on PYD though. It's not like they don't have former regime servants and military regiments fighting under their flag. Why don't you review wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YPG%E2%80%93FSA_relations
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Nov 27, 2016 19:43
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kustomkarkommando posted:Well exporting crude oil through Iran kind of hit some significant snags what with the embargoes and its only recently become viable again, exporting oil via the national infrastructure hits into the furious debates about national profit sharing which the PUK was not entirely removed from. Most of their complaints have been how the KDP have monopolized oil exportation profits, the fact that they have been implemented in several dodgy trucked oil exports to Iran and similar under the table dealings as the KDP should raise an eyebrow or two - the likelihood of a long term economic deal with Iran to handle oil exportation in the mid-2000s considering the KRG's position with Iraq and relationship with the USA wasn't particularly high I would say Is the PUK more friendly with Iran than other factions? If yes, why? If you have any other insights or commentary from the 90s Kurdish civil war, Turkey's incursions into Iraq, pipeline politics in the area then please continue, your posts on this page have been fascinating.
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Nov 27, 2016 20:14
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Squalid posted:Why don't you review wikipedia Because it's poo poo and confusing and only contains a chaotic list of clashes and nothing about why they happened, or why they lead to open war instead of being resolved, or about how the leadership of the verious parties reacted, or who ordered them, or anything that might allow me to understand what the bloody hell happened..
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Nov 27, 2016 20:31
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Sinteres posted:If it didn't happen, I'm happy to be wrong. It may have been Czer, sometimes your posting blends together. Are the advances being made by a massive militia army sweeping the rebels before them? Because unless they are we're still seeing the same siege and there's still a long way to go.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:00
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Warbadger posted:It may have been Czer, sometimes your posting blends together. Are the advances being made by a massive militia army sweeping the rebels before them? Because unless they are we're still seeing the same siege and there's still a long way to go. I'm a YPG fanboy, not an Shia supremacist. To answer your question though, Shia militias have made a huge difference in bolstering the burned out husk of the SAA that caved when the rebels broke the siege of Aleppo. Since then, the militia groups helped the SAA regain the siege, hold it against a second attempt to break it, and have in the last 24 hours made massive gains in rebel controlled territory inside the city. You really are picking about the worst possible time to continue your argument.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:26
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https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/802986289356308480 Apparently now Ahrar al-Sham is falling apart. Not a good day for the rebels. They've really been harmed by infighting of late, between Aleppo and East Ghouta.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:57
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Thug Lessons posted:They're not actually doing that. That was someone calling the PMU "Iraqi Hezbollah" to smear them. Sometimes the Iraqi PMU's call themselves that, depending on their name. BEAR GRYLLZ posted:If there's one good thing to come out of the Trump presidency it'll be that Saudi-dicksucking fucks like you will never find a home in our state department. ROFL
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Nov 28, 2016 00:38
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Sergg posted:Sometimes the Iraqi PMU's call themselves that, depending on their name. There's a Kurdish group called Hezbollah too but if you're going to talk about it you better explain what it is.
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Nov 28, 2016 00:41
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This is loving crazy. https://twitter.com/NPR/status/803018065990426624
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Nov 28, 2016 00:42
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Volkerball posted:They poo poo on everyone then act surprised when they have no allies except for the actor with a really stupid laser focus on the ISIS symptom. I know it's a really romantic idea to make out the PYD to be this Westernized leftist militia defending itself on all fronts from attacks against it on ethnic grounds, but it's not real. The dispute between Turkey and the PKK is political, not ethnic, and the PKK has done their fair share in feeding the flames. And their sectarian bigotry is up there with anyone else in creating the bad blood between them and the Arabs and Turks. I get that you think Erdogan is good because he's anti-Assad, but he's been an unambiguously bad actor vis a vis Syrian Kurds and is objectively a monster with blood on his hands. Assad being a butcher in the rest of the country doesn't change Erdogan being the worst state actor in Rojava. Can we please stop playing the two wrongs make a right game. As you yourself said, the regime has been no friend to the PYD, it's an alliance of convenience. Frankly, the FSA and Nusra forced the PYD's hands. Attacking them was an unforced error born out of their fanaticism, and now they have to suffer the consequences.
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Nov 28, 2016 00:46
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