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Boon posted:You're missing a fundamental and powerful element of humanity, and that is a sense of fairness. It applies just as much to an aggregate as it does on a personal level. The problem is, Just World Fallacy satisfies people there, too. It's "fair" that say, some one is poor, they "deserve" it for some presumed failure. The bias to see your flaws and problems as merely being unlucky or temporary, while others' flaws are a sign of their poor personality or choices runs deep. Yes, we have that sense of fairness, but we spend quite a bit of time learning it out of our children.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:52
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Kilroy posted:This kind of thinking is going to get Democrats absolutely nowhere. Forever. Yeah, dedicated GOP voters are shitheels for voting to grant themselves power over their social inferiors (however they define it: race, religion, gender, orientation, etc). Some of them will vote for it no matter what, but many of them might opt for economic empowerment instead, if the Democrats start to really offer that. obama offered billions of dollars to rust belt states to be used in infrastructure development that would provide employment and revitalize the areas. republican governers turned down the money, and they're still in power today. you don't know poo poo about what republicans want.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:52
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Well to be fair it was actually Republican Legislature and Governors ,but yeah it's not even remotely something that makes any kind of rational sense.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:52
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Kilroy posted:People like Dylan Roof consider that a sign of weakness and frankly, in this political environment, they might be right. Off with his loving head. Nah, he openly said he thought they were nice people, and they actually made him consider if he should kill them. He just, you know, killed them anyway.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:53
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Hollismason posted:Well to be fair it was actually Republican Legislature and Governors ,but yeah it's not even remotely something that makes any kind of rational sense. Or the medicaid expansion. Yeah, the states will have to pay for 20% of it but it also makes all your hospitals solvent overnight. That and the people not dying thing.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:56
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I'll also point out that spite is such a common human emotion. Arguably, it's a necessary drive to punish possible betrayers within this iterated Prisoner's Dilemma we call life. The tat in the tit-for-tat strategy.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:57
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Robert Altman: "It's got to be the stupidest song ever written." Johnny Mandel: "I'm sorry but there's just too much stuff in this 45-year-old brain. I can't write anything nearly as stupid as what we need." Robert Altman: "All is not lost. I've got a 15-year-old kid who's a total idiot." So Michael Altman, at age 15, wrote the lyrics, and then Johnny Mandel wrote the music to them. Michael Altman became a millionaire from the royalties for that song, by the way. John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 07:57
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boner confessor posted:yeah but these are voters who blamed regulations and offshoring for job loss instead of automation and the shift towards tertiary sector employment with commensurate wage and benefit dislocation because unions are evil (except for my union) That's all abstract poo poo, though. If Joe Sixpack in Buttfuck, Ohio received $20 from the government every week, voted for the guy who told them "vote for me, I'll give you $40 a week", and then woke up one morning to find out that guy was president and he was now receiving $0 a week, he would know who to blame really quickly. This is why Medicare is a third rail in American politics. There's no moral welfare except my welfare, and nearly everyone would be affected directly by such a cut.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:58
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Paradoxish posted:Economic empowerment doesn't exist for many of these people without government support. That support doesn't have to come in the form of direct monetary welfare, but there aren't market solutions to their problems. If they're unwilling to accept help in any form then there's nothing that can be done for them, no matter how much they want their lives to be better and no matter how much the people in power want to help them.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:59
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Hollismason posted:Well to be fair it was actually Republican Legislature and Governors ,but yeah it's not even remotely something that makes any kind of rational sense. If you understand it as knowing that accepting the ACA will eventually lead to the loss from your job due to either getting primaried or the success of national Democrats bringing in state Democrats on their coattails. As well as putting you in a position where you "owe" Obama and the Democrats, it becomes more rational. Especially when the insurance companies keep the campaign donations coming, and the right wing media will find a way to distract your constituents. E: Rational means acting in self-interest based on your current knowledge, and can lead to altruism, but it's not at all necessary. foobardog fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 08:03
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not following your point. Are you saying that people view higher minimum wages as unfair? Because I'm not going to disagree that it's a problem that people see "low end" work as being unworthy of a good wage foobardog posted:The problem is, Just World Fallacy satisfies people there, too. It's "fair" that say, some one is poor, they "deserve" it for some presumed failure. The idea of what's fair is odd, because it can be applied in so many ways. In the case of Dan Price it was obvious that people would resent "working hard years" to get where they were only to see it all invalidated in a stroke. No we don't spend "quite a bit of time learning it out of our children". We impart that 'the world is not fair' as an objective lesson but don't imply that, that unfairness should be accepted. The concept is so fundamental to the functioning of relationships, teams, and society. Taken one way, it's equity, taken another it's justice. The sense of fairness manifests in who is making a decision and how it impacts them. Did they feel that they were given a chance to be heard? Again, something doesn't need to be wrong or illogical for it to be perceived as unfair. But it's that sense of unfairness that is going to motivate the opposition. Boon fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 08:03
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Kilroy posted:I don't think democratic workforces and profit sharing are really "market solutions". They are a fundamental change to the contract between corporations and society. "The market" is mostly left alone here. You say they're unwilling to accept help but on the Democratic platform that's mostly in the form of cash transfer stuff, which this isn't. Offering up something where we're going to completely rethink how employees face off to their employers, and do it in a way that empowers people on an individual level (i.e. not unions) might make some headway. I'm not sure how democratic workforces and profit sharing are empowering people to act on a personal level, since what you're describing is essentially enforced collective bargaining. Like, unions are generally democratic organizations. Aside from it being impossible, I don't know why people who are opposed to unions would suddenly be on board for (almost) literal socialism. I also don't know how this solves the problem of large numbers of people being left behind by an economy that no longer values their skills.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:09
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Kilroy posted:People like Dylan Roof consider that a sign of weakness and frankly, in this political environment, they might be right. Off with his loving head. Agreed. Norway's treatment of Anders Brevik is as harsh as their legal system allows for which is appropriate considering the magnitude of his crimes. In the context of South Carolina, people have been executed for far less serious crimes, very often along racial lines. White people have always been treated leniently for violence against black people, particularly in the furtherance of white supremacy. Refusing to punish him to the full extent of the law simply cements this inequity without changing a thing.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:09
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Venuz Patrol posted:obama offered billions of dollars to rust belt states to be used in infrastructure development that would provide employment and revitalize the areas. republican governers turned down the money, and they're still in power today. you don't know poo poo about what republicans want. It's certainly true that spurring infrastructure development in those states would have increased employment which as a secondary effect would give those employees some breathing room in negotiating for better conditions. But it would not change the relationship between the worker and his employer in any fundamental way. They'd still be reminded frequently enough that there are plenty of people willing to take their job for less money, only maybe now the number is fifty instead of one hundred.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:10
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Boon posted:The idea of what's fair is odd, because it can be applied in so many ways. In the case of Dan Price it was obvious that people would resent "working hard years" to get where they were only to see it all invalidated in a stroke. Then let me be more specific. What we learn and seem to have is is a very limited sense of fairness that extends to those were consider "the same". Outside of that, we are quite vicious to "the Other". And we spend a great deal teaching kids who "the other" is. These ideas are very much flexible, basic society works on including perfect strangers as "the same". But don't confuse this limited idea of fairness for the type of wide ranging fairness you assume. We're poo poo people, but we can imagine better, so we have to try.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:10
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not sure how democratic workforces and profit sharing are empowering people to act on a personal level, since what you're describing is essentially enforced collective bargaining. Like, unions are generally democratic organizations. Aside from it being impossible, I don't know why people who are opposed to unions would suddenly be on board for (almost) literal socialism. I also don't know how this solves the problem of large numbers of people being left behind by an economy that no longer values their skills. I think workplace democracy will sound great to most Americans until someone points out that whiny Goldbricking college boy you're always pulling out of the fire gets a vote too.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:14
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foobardog posted:Then let me be more specific. What we learn and seem to have is is a very limited sense of fairness that extends to those were consider "the same". Outside of that, we are quite vicious to "the Other". And we spend a great deal teaching kids who "the other" is. I think you're appropriating tribalism and conflating that with fairness.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:16
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Boon posted:I think you're appropriating tribalism and conflating that with fairness. I think our basic sense of "fairness" is very entwined with tribalism, yes. It's only our ability to create ideas that feel more real than our animal instincts that allows that tribe to be expanded.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:19
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Boon posted:The idea of what's fair is odd, because it can be applied in so many ways. In the case of Dan Price it was obvious that people would resent "working hard years" to get where they were only to see it all invalidated in a stroke. And yet other people were enamored enough with the idea that they left higher paying jobs to join Gravity. I mean, I don't disagree with you at all, but "fairness" is a matter of perspective. The fundamental problem is that people don't view low wages as unfair.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:22
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not sure how democratic workforces and profit sharing are empowering people to act on a personal level, since what you're describing is essentially enforced collective bargaining. Like, unions are generally democratic organizations. Aside from it being impossible, I don't know why people who are opposed to unions would suddenly be on board for (almost) literal socialism. I also don't know how this solves the problem of large numbers of people being left behind by an economy that no longer values their skills.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:24
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DeusExMachinima posted:Dylan Roof has elected to represent himself in his murder trial. 'Shocking roughly half the country, Roof was found not guilty.' -- Headline of the future in this terrible timeline.
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Nov 29, 2016 09:31
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There ain't no brakes on the death penalty train!
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Maybe the plans to gently caress around until Jeff Sessions becomes AG and 'volunteers' as prosecutor for the trial. I do not pretend to have any knowledge on how this would even work.
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Nov 29, 2016 09:37
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foobardog posted:I think our basic sense of "fairness" is very entwined with tribalism, yes. It's only our ability to create ideas that feel more real than our animal instincts that allows that tribe to be expanded. Some real deep poo poo right here. You know it's true because it's pessimistic.
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Nov 29, 2016 09:52
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Xae posted:The problem with changing the ACA is that literally every part of it, other than the mandate, polls at absurd approval levels. Even the individual mandate is pretty popular. Yet I've seen so many Republicans, who haven't used it at all, screaming about : 1) It's so hard to sign up for. (nope, except that first few months) 2) It took some guy two days to compare the plans and figure out what was most cost effective for him! (you'd have to do this with private insurance exactly the same way) 3) It's worse than no insurance at all, if you get sick on an ACA plan you'll go bankrupt! (Jesus Christ, what?) 4) It's expensive (yup, all insurance is, ACA might be moreso but for people who couldn't get insurance at all, expensive is better than nothing and way better than guaranteed bankruptcy if you do have a major medical issue) I've been using it since it was available and it's been working well. It's not the best insurance plan I've ever had but even the plans I had through large companies got continually shittier year after year. It's about on-par, coverage and deductable-wise to those plans when I switched over. Plus now there is no yearly or lifetime max and they can't deny me for stupid poo poo. But since democrats passed it, it's horrible and evil.
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Nov 29, 2016 10:30
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RandomBlue posted:Yet I've seen so many Republicans, who haven't used it at all, screaming about : Ryan's Medicare plan is exactly Obamacare for old people. Probably without the cool parts like preexisting conditions, though. Anyways, I give it around 10yr until Aetna or something gets caught making up fake patient records to jack up people's rates, charge them out if network fees, or just plain drop coverages.
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Nov 29, 2016 11:10
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I'm covered under my dad's insurance for a couple more years, which I'm sure will get hosed up, but more importantly my husband is covered by medicaid and he doesn't have to pay anything for his insurance except $1 for prescriptions because he's hella below the poverty line. maryland isn't super awful but I don't know much about what they're doing state-wise in terms of health insurance and I'm scared that my husband is going to lose his coverage. I think he's able to keep it until, at least, his next 'review' of coverage about a year from now, even if ACA gets repealed or hosed somehow.  I guess I should make an appointment to get another birth control implant or something now so at least I'm good for a few more years. or until they take away birth control coverage again.
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Nov 29, 2016 13:09
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welp https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/803567993036754944
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Nov 29, 2016 13:47
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Hahahahahaha.
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Nov 29, 2016 13:50
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There must be some crazy poo poo going on with his HHS pick if that's how he's starting his day. https://twitter.com/lookpark/status/803577627785236480
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Nov 29, 2016 13:56
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the trump reddit is completely silent about this particular tweet, for some reason
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Nov 29, 2016 13:58
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Stealing policy ideas from Hillary again, I see. Clever outreach strategy to bring Americans together.
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Nov 29, 2016 13:59
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Oh jesus.
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Nov 29, 2016 14:01
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https://twitter.com/jelani9/status/803425527314976768 https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/803478738826620932 d0s posted:the trump reddit is completely silent about this particular tweet, for some reason It's super fun watching the cracks show on Reddit, they were distraught over Jeff Sessions only because of his stance on marijuana.
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Nov 29, 2016 14:05
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https://twitter.com/ayatollah1988/status/803570324654751745
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Nov 29, 2016 14:09
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Coheed and Camembert posted:https://twitter.com/jelani9/status/803425527314976768 All the MRA/Gamergate/Trump dudes on Reddit will one day be up for a rude awakening when they realise that electing a facist didn't suddenly turn America into the gilded imaginary 1950's where women are falling over themselves to have a sexy gamer boyfriend who lives in a basement and posts pepe the frog memes unironically.
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Nov 29, 2016 14:10
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Freedom of speech pertains to what comes out of the mouth.
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Nov 29, 2016 14:11
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would you take "flag burning isnt literal speech so we can make it illegal" if that also got us to "money isnt speech and can seriously restrict campaign finance laws now"? i mean obviously the later would never happen with a trump administration, but still
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Nov 29, 2016 14:12
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Kilroy posted:I maintain that people want to have some sense of power in their lives and if the Democrats aren't offering that (they aren't) they will vote for Republicans instead, who offer them power over their social inferiors. It takes a lovely person to grab for that, but if enough people are desperate enough in their powerlessness, it's a winning electoral strategy as we've seen. Stuff like minimum wage and even basic income and much of the rest of the Democratic platform doesn't empower anyone, it just protects them (to the extent Democrats can even implement any of it, which usually they can't really). If you're working minimum wage and voting for Democrats to raise it, you're basically relying on the whims of the electorate for your livelihood which is not something most people care to do. Not to mention minimum wage itself is a relic from over a half century ago and probably needs to be abolished anyway. You're inviting creative music industry accounting to become the norm wherein nothing ever makes a profit on paper to share
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Nov 29, 2016 14:17
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may as well go for broke.
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In non-election news the entire town of Gatlinburg, TN is burning down from wildfires. https://twitter.com/ChrisBrownBruh/status/803487814943850496
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Nov 29, 2016 14:19
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I wonder if people who burn the flag in order to retire it (as convention dictates) will lose their citizenship for showing the American flag respect
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