Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Carcer posted:

Swords are great for stair dancing formicids and in large part contributed to me bieng able to dismantle the V5 ambush and the Tomb 3 clusterfuck. Anything that can get decent EV should consider swords purely for riposte.

I'm running with LBs and Dith's umbra right now. I assume the effect is negligible, but it makes me feel stronger.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:02

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 14, 2024 04:52

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Removing brown chunks was probably the best quality-of-life change ever made.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:02

odiv: Jan 12, 2003

Mine was Death Cobs during a tournament where I thought "instead of eating..."

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:03

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Removing brown chunks was probably the best quality-of-life change ever made.

Up there with the invisible knife that everyone now carries for butchering.

And the removal of item destruction.

oh poo poo an ice dragon better throw all my potions on the floor

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:14

odiv: Jan 12, 2003

Accidentally leaving almost all my potions in an ice cave was pretty funny.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:17

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Captain Monkey posted:

There are about a dozen ways to improve the Fi and Gl start that aren't 'give them the next damage tier weapon'.

Care to throw out some examples? Maybe it can change and everyone can become consistent then!

PleasingFungus posted:

m&f weapons are much better for 'pure melee' characters, especially those not following gifting gods, since the great mace is by far the most common top-end melee weapon.

Great maces are also severely underwhelming. I find Polearms offer a smoother upgrade transition than M&F thanks to the large amount of enemies that use them (bardiches are often the one "Don't Count On It" tier weapon that I can actually count on finding without a gifting god, at least by Vaults), along with reaching being very useful.

Battleaxes are also dirt common and pretty comparable to great maces if you have a god who can help you take advantage of cleaving.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:17

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

So much talk of weapon types getting shafted ( :haw:

) and nobody even mentions short blades?

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:24

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

Poison Mushroom posted:

So much talk of weapon types getting shafted () and nobody even mentions short blades?

Closely related: Long blades and 1-h polearms losing their stab bonuses was pretty annoying. Lbl at least gives you crosstraining now but it's not worth bothering to swap for lower quality stabs. Using either type was a nice bonus with Ru or Zin, for example.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:31

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Floodkiller posted:

Care to throw out some examples? Maybe it can change and everyone can become consistent then!

I was gonna post this but then I thought of some. They could have higher starting skills, and/or stats. Starting potions are cool. (Do fighters still get a starting might potion? One time I only won because of the starting might potion.) Instead of a better base weapon, it could be branded, though that sounds pretty broken.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:35

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

How to play SBl:

Are you a Kiku Stabber?

If not, did you find an elec quickblade?

If not, did you cross train into LBl?

No? Then get hosed.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:38

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Poison Mushroom posted:

How to play SBl:

Are you a Kiku Stabber?

If not, did you find an elec quickblade?

If not, did you cross train into LBl?

No? Then get hosed.

You forgot "Are you a vine stalker?"

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:44

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Hunger could probably be removed entirely with the simple tweaks of making ghouls eat corpses directly to remove rot and making exhaustion fade by gaining (a small amount of) experience. MP already serves the purpose of limiting spells-per-battle, why does hunger need to duplicate that purpose? Similarly, OOD spawns and god piety already force your character to move forward. I guess you might run into issues with Ru or Gozag worshipers trying to scum every floor for experience but mummies can already do that

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:51

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Poison Mushroom posted:

How to play SBl:

Are you a Kiku Stabber?

If not, did you find an elec quickblade?

If not, did you cross train into LBl?

No? Then get hosed.

Alternatively:

code:


FitzyFitz the Fencer (Human Warper)                Turns: 36389, Time: 02:52:52

Health: 112/133    AC: 34    Str: 23    XL:     17   Next: 57%
Magic:  32/32      EV: 14    Int: 26    God:    Dithmenos [*****.]
Gold:   3034       SH:  0    Dex: 24    Spells: 9/24 levels left

rFire  + . .      SeeInvis +    a - +8 rapier "Xoah" {pierce, rElec rF+ Dex+9 SInv}
rCold  . . .      Gourm    +    K - +4 shadow dragon scales
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (no shield)
rPois  .          Spirit   .    V - +3 helmet of the Spider Nest {Str+4 Int+4}
rElec  +          Reflect  .    d - +2 cloak
rCorr  .          Harm     .    u - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
MR     +....                    Z - +2 pair of boots
Stlth  +++++++++.               S - amulet "Weremn" {Gourm Int+5}
                                A - ring "Guelios" {MP+9 Dex+3 Slay+5}
                                i - +4 ring of slaying

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:53

Mr. Prokosch: Feb 14, 2012; Behold My Magnificence!

Starting back up with this game after a year or so off. Almost made it out with a Demonspawn gladiator before being punked by a pan lord. Now I'm working on a Draconian Conjurer. Overall I like the changes, I used to exploit the poo poo of Nemelex but it seems like that's fixed, I'm less worried about food even as a spellcaster, and I like the efforts to distinguish weapons. I even like not having to pray over bodies or items all the time.

So what's the logic behind backgrounds with starting gods? Right now there's three left, with four removed. Xom I can get behind because Xom doesn't really help and getting him early is, if anything, a bad idea. But Trog is a very solid God choice that's useful throughout the game and you get a lot of mileage out of early worship. I've heard him described as easy mode, so why does he get in when the other gods have to wait for deeper in the dungeon? I don't know about Lugonu, always seemed like a bad idea.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:53

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Mr. Prokosch posted:

But Trog is a very solid God choice that's useful throughout the game and you get a lot of mileage out of early worship.

I would think because it is cool to have a strong newbie class. Good to get people understanding the basics of combat and god abilities while also cutting magic out as a distracting option from them.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 00:57

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Floodkiller posted:

Great maces are also severely underwhelming.

I don't think 17 base damage is underwhelming at all!

# ? Dec 2, 2016 01:04

RyokoTK: Feb 12, 2012; I am cool.

World Famous W posted:

I would think because it is cool to have a strong newbie class. Good to get people understanding the basics of combat and god abilities while also cutting magic out as a distracting option from them.

Yeah the Berserker doesn't have to think about god choice or magic usage. They also have a really smooth and consistent pre-Lair. It's a really good class for getting into the basics of Crawl before branching out into the other options. Which is good because there are many gods and many more spells and it's easy for a noob like me to be paralyzed by choice.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 02:35

Matty: Oct 29, 2010

Infestation seems like a fun spell, guess it will be removed next version! :salt:

(kinda blurry unless you view image in new tab and magnify, dunno why)

This is also the first time I've even gone into vaults 5 and not used an immolation scroll :negative:

Matty fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Dec 2, 2016

# ? Dec 2, 2016 02:54

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

I'd recommend using http://sli.mg/ instead of tinypic(and imgur, and others), I think it's the best image host out there atm

# ? Dec 2, 2016 03:35

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

Lost my lunchbreak DEFE of Veh today.
7 runes; relevant spell skills at 23+; 25 dodge, 19 fighting, and 19 evo; Firestorm, Glaciate, and Shatter at 2-4% depending on rings. Bunch of lvl6 spells. Crushed Zot, Tomb & Cerebov like little babies but got overconfident with a random PanLord one-on-one.

My comments on exploring deep into postgame with a character that I was willing to risk:
A) Bring back rMut.
Even killing Necqoxecs in one hit, Cacodemons in two, and Orbs in three isn't fast enough to deal with their bullshit. And I had the Hat Of The Alchemist, afaik the only remaining source outside of race/god

B) Make the Pan runes spawn faster. I went through about twenty levels, mostly completely cleared, before I found my only one

C) BRING BACK BUFFS I kept dropping spell levels into different flavors of attack spells because there aren't many defensive spells left.

Speleothing fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Dec 2, 2016

# ? Dec 2, 2016 04:22

VROOM VROOM: Jun 8, 2005

All this change talk is making me glad I only play 0.12.2. Then again I'm a weirdo who likes e.g. brown chunks.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 04:26

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Matty posted:

Infestation seems like a fun spell, guess it will be removed next version!

(kinda blurry unless you view image in new tab and magnify, dunno why)

This is also the first time I've even gone into vaults 5 and not used an immolation scroll

Infestation was created by the Lord of Removals, MarvinPA. Who could remove it?

# ? Dec 2, 2016 04:39

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

VROOM VROOM posted:

All this change talk is making me glad I only play 0.12.2. Then again I'm a weirdo who likes e.g. brown chunks.

If you decide to try a newer version sometime, please post about it! I'm very curious about your take on the last four years (!) of changes.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 04:39

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

Aumanor posted:

So how's everyone's opinion on the last few patches? Way back when I've looked at the changelog for 0.17, went "gently caress that noise" and stuck to 0.16 whenever I decided to splat another squishy caster. None of the changes on the subsequent releases convinced me it's worth to convert to them. Am I missing on much?

Aumanor posted:

Still, I don't think any QoL changes helped pure casters and that's pretty much the only thing I play. Certainly not enough to offset poo poo like stasis and rmut being gone now. Add to that a slew of annoying little changes like ignite poison becoming way less useful and... ehh, I think I'll stay where I am.

Aside from various adjustments to spell availability, removal, level, addition, etc, here's some highlights that stand out to me.

Sticks to Snakes no longer requires wielding arrows
Casting Malign Gateway no longer drains player Int
Casting Haunt no longer causes sickness
High level spellbooks no longer restrict learning from them based on skill
levels.
The auto_eat_chunks option is now true by default, so hungry characters eat
chunks while resting, travelling, and exploring.
Allow searching for jewellery, dragon armour/hides and magical staves using
abbreviations for their granted properties.

Killing monsters in the Abyss eventually spawns exits and down-stairs. this has nothing directly to do with spellcasters but drat is it huge
Sif Muna now grants miscast protection at 2* and amnesia at 4*, rather than the other way around.
The amulet of magic regeneration, which increases MP regeneration after a warmup period.
Alistair's Intoxication is now level 5 and gives Vertigo status instead of confusing the player or draining Int, and can sometimes affect rPois monsters.

Potions, scrolls and books can be used while still on the floor.

pre:

 Sif Muna changes:
  - The 1* Channel Energy ability is replaced with Divine Energy, which allows
    the player to cast with insufficient mp, causing temporary -Cast.
  - At 3*, grants "Channel Magic", trading piety for a fast MP regen status.
  - Book gifts now begin at 5*, instead of 6*.
  - Sif grants piety for both learning magic and killing enemies.

Olgreb's Toxic Radiance causes less damage, but doesn't poison the caster.

I could go on about some other stuff, but decided to just stick to answering the question. Speaking of questions, I completely missed the fact that Sif Muna had changed, since most of my casters are either hybrids or "blow 'em all to hell" Vehumet. Sounds kinda cool but I don't really have a clue and I'm currently loving around rather incompetently with a Kobold Assassin. How's Sif Muna play, and any particular fun goon combos to try? I might have done something painful like MuSu or MuIE in older versions, but since I no longer have the excuse of 'hungerless channelling' I'd probably just be asking for the usual mummy masochism ... unless I've also overlooked some significant changes on that front.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 04:41

lizardhunt: Feb 7, 2010; agreed ->

While watching RyokoTK, a Ru worshipper who sacrificed love, I started thinking:

What good is the Orb of Zot if everyone outside of the dungeon will hate you forever? :geno:

# ? Dec 2, 2016 06:50

RyokoTK: Feb 12, 2012; I am cool.

I prefer to think of it as everyone envying the cool and dope god powers I have.

code:

     1573925 RyokoTK the Skullcrusher (level 27, 290/290 HPs)
             Began as an Ogre Hunter on Dec 1, 2016.
             Was the Champion of Ru.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on Dec 2, 2016!

My second win! And as an ogre, too, which was pretty tricky to get a hang of.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 07:25

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

^^^ grats!

As much as I am, for some unquantifiable reason, having less fun with 0.19+ (if I figure out why I'll let somebody know), the idea of going back to versions without the incredible QOL changes modern Crawl has is so depressing I could never do it

# ? Dec 2, 2016 08:13

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

You are probably like me and burnt out/getting burnt out.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 09:28

tote up a bags: Jun 8, 2006; die stoats die

I had it. Took 6 months off and then came back and 15 runed for the first time ever. This game owns but it gets insanely repetitive if you play it a lot. Playing for 3+ hours to just start being challenged by anything other than dumb luck can be pretty dull.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 09:39

Carcer: Aug 7, 2010

I haven't fired the game up again since I 15 runed for the first time about a week ago. I'm thinking of starting to play again but I know if I tried to jump back in immediately after winning I'd burn out and throw away good characters trying to kill a bat or something.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 10:01

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

IronicDongz posted:

You are probably like me and burnt out/getting burnt out.

It's possible! But I stopped playing for after the .18 tournament until the .19 one, so :iiam:

# ? Dec 2, 2016 10:08

Aumanor: Nov 9, 2012

LordSloth posted:

Aside from various adjustments to spell availability, removal, level, addition, etc, here's some highlights that stand out to me.

Spellcaster QoL 0.17 - kinda weak

Sticks to Snakes no longer requires wielding arrows

Casting Malign Gateway no longer drains player Int

Casting Haunt no longer causes sickness

High level spellbooks no longer restrict learning from them based on skill
levels.

The auto_eat_chunks option is now true by default, so hungry characters eat
chunks while resting, travelling, and exploring.

Allow searching for jewellery, dragon armour/hides and magical staves using
abbreviations for their granted properties.

Spellcaster QoL 0.18 - kinda good

Killing monsters in the Abyss eventually spawns exits and down-stairs. this has nothing directly to do with spellcasters but drat is it huge

Sif Muna now grants miscast protection at 2* and amnesia at 4*, rather than the other way around.

The amulet of magic regeneration, which increases MP regeneration after a warmup period.

Alistair's Intoxication is now level 5 and gives Vertigo status instead of confusing the player or draining Int, and can sometimes affect rPois monsters.
Spellcaster QoL 0.19

Potions, scrolls and books can be used while still on the floor.
pre:
 Sif Muna changes:
  - The 1* Channel Energy ability is replaced with Divine Energy, which allows
    the player to cast with insufficient mp, causing temporary -Cast.
  - At 3*, grants "Channel Magic", trading piety for a fast MP regen status.
  - Book gifts now begin at 5*, instead of 6*.
  - Sif grants piety for both learning magic and killing enemies.
Olgreb's Toxic Radiance causes less damage, but doesn't poison the caster.
I could go on about some other stuff, but decided to just stick to answering the question. Speaking of questions, I completely missed the fact that Sif Muna had changed, since most of my casters are either hybrids or "blow 'em all to hell" Vehumet. Sounds kinda cool but I don't really have a clue and I'm currently loving around rather incompetently with a Kobold Assassin. How's Sif Muna play, and any particular fun goon combos to try? I might have done something painful like MuSu or MuIE in older versions, but since I no longer have the excuse of 'hungerless channelling' I'd probably just be asking for the usual mummy masochism ... unless I've also overlooked some significant changes on that front.

On the other hand, 0.19 seems to have removed haste, so gently caress that.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 10:27

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

I think it's pretty normal that players fade out of the game and (sometimes) come back in. That's one of the reasons why there are tournaments! You can peek into a new version for two weeks, and then go on with your life -- if you're hooked, you can also stay a while, of course.

Regarding players who drop the ball: I'll try to regularly (think once a month, this goes until and including the 0.20 tournament) advertise the DCSS 0.19 Player Survey. If you didn't do it yet, and have five minutes, please check it out. (Disclaimer: survey needs a Google account.)

# ? Dec 2, 2016 11:41