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People need to start off educating the public that "assistance" is really just "public insurance". I get "unemployment" because I have been paying toward that for years of working. Cashing in on unemployment or food stamps is no different than cashing in on my car insurance when somebody hits me on the road.tower time posted:We definitely need to push for an expansion of the social safety net, but ultimately most people need to do some form of work to feel fulfilled. I'd caution people against underestimating the pride/shame people feel about assistance, because it does real harm in people's lives. I went to an elementary school that I now know from city records has 75% of the children attending participating in the free/reduced lunch program. I don't have past figures, but they were likely higher when I was attending because the farm crisis in the late 80's absolutely wrecked manufacturing related jobs here. As a kid I didn't know which kids were getting free/reduced lunches, but you could tell whose family was both poor and also had parents too stubborn (or simply were so neglectful/lazy to do the application paperwork) because if the parents never applied nor sent the children with money, the only thing the school would provide for lunch was a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and water. So that is what those kids ate, every single lunch, for the entire time they attended school there. If it's 75% then those who are stubborn are clearly a vast minority, even though they still exist.
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Dec 4, 2016 08:52
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Serf posted:We also ought to be pushing the absolutely insane idea that maybe human beings shouldn't have to sell their labor just to exist. Yeah, I feel like there's an all-pervasive classism in our society that we just don't acknowledge. The idle rich are accepted with the entire economy built around supporting them*. The idle poor are generally homeless and scorned. Welfare for the rich is 'stimulus' and welfare for the poor is immoral and stupid. * Almost by default, as Capitalism is a game of upward capital accumulation.
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Dec 4, 2016 08:57
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tower time posted:We definitely need to push for an expansion of the social safety net, but ultimately most people need to do some form of work to feel fulfilled. I'd caution people against underestimating the pride/shame people feel about assistance, because it does real harm in people's lives. I went to an elementary school that I now know from city records has 75% of the children attending participating in the free/reduced lunch program. I don't have past figures, but they were likely higher when I was attending because the farm crisis in the late 80's absolutely wrecked manufacturing related jobs here. As a kid I didn't know which kids were getting free/reduced lunches, but you could tell whose family was both poor and also had parents too stubborn (or simply were so neglectful/lazy to do the application paperwork) because if the parents never applied nor sent the children with money, the only thing the school would provide for lunch was a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and water. So that is what those kids ate, every single lunch, for the entire time they attended school there. While we should recognize that currently that puritanical work ethic is a thing, we also need to understand it isn't immutable. It may be as easy as a "branding" problem. Calling it Insurance is a great idea. Using language that classifies food and housing as equal to the pursuit of happiness would also help. Prosperity Gospel has been a thing for a long time in America, but no need to be a slave to it's tenants.
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Dec 4, 2016 08:59
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Freedom Cash. The freedom to do anything.
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Dec 4, 2016 09:03
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Yes and no. I think most people will take help if they need it. Even very stubborn people will usually take help on behalf of people that depend on them, if not always for themselves. An even smaller portion will not take help for themselves nor those who depend on them. I don't think its possible to reach everyone, but you always have to try because the people most affected are usually those with the least power to do anything about it.
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Dec 4, 2016 09:05
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Powercrazy posted:While we should recognize that currently that puritanical work ethic is a thing, we also need to understand it isn't immutable. It may be as easy as a "branding" problem. Calling it Insurance is a great idea. Using language that classifies food and housing as equal to the pursuit of happiness would also help. Prosperity Gospel has been a thing for a long time in America, but no need to be a slave to it's tenants. I think americans don't care if they actually earn something or not, we just want to FEEL like we earned it that's why we hate participation trophies like, here's an idea: free collage is cool and is urgently needed, but people will immediately call it a give-away, and the people in rural communities especially will rightly connect it with the government encouraging further brain and talent drain from their community, they'll correctly see it as the government encouraging a further marginalization of their life and their history (even if they don't openly recognize those connections) but what if instead, the government would subsidize your entire education if you worked for 20 hours a week in your home community on community service projects during your summer break, maybe even give them a little spending money they can put back into their home towns while they're at it, nothing much, like maybe $500 each summer or something on top of the education funding business and a lot of people have A LOT of student debt that is just crushing them what if the government would pay it off if you joined a civic corps and worked on projects in your home town one weekend a month and two weeks a year (this may sound familiar) for X number of years like those kinds of programs would probably be decently received
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Dec 4, 2016 09:32
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SpaceGoku posted:I think americans don't care if they actually earn something or not, we just want to FEEL like we earned it What if instead, we just make it free, and pay for it with corporate tax dollars.
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Dec 4, 2016 09:50
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We don't want the poors to have to easy, they're already coasting by in their cadillacs with their diamond chains.
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Dec 4, 2016 10:03
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Ace of Baes posted:What if instead, we just make it free, and pay for it with corporate tax dollars. my dude good job at misunderstanding
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Dec 4, 2016 10:39
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Ace of Baes posted:We don't want the poors to have to easy, they're already coasting by in their cadillacs with their diamond chains. We need a wealth tax in the worst way. Or at least an *extremely* progressive tax structure that treats investment income the same as all other kinds of income. Or poo poo, I'd settle for letting inflation rise a little. Fake edit: And I realize capital is mobile and a wealth tax would cause mass offshoring of money, but gently caress it we don't see benefit from that money anyways. Since a wealth tax is a fantasy anyways I can also fantasize about real consequences for hiding money and actual sanctions against individuals and corporations. Bring the jobs back by exiling the extremely wealthy and their companies to make room for new companies who will pay into the public good.
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Dec 4, 2016 10:54
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Ace of Baes posted:Terrorists aren't going to try to hijack planes, and the ones that do will get overwhelmed by passengers, the TSA can be massively scales down.  thats cool and all, I watched that Harrison Ford movie Air Force One with Gary Oldman as the bad guy too and thats certainly what will happen since people generally are brave and have good judgment and know the massive layout of the plane and sneak around in the luggage hold and ceiling to outsmart their terrorist foes who are more than happy to blow everything up and cut the plane in half regardless because it's still a morale victory.
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Dec 4, 2016 11:15
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Lastgirl posted:
What. No, they'd just rush the hijacker
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Dec 4, 2016 11:23
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:What. No, they'd just rush the hijacker In my fantasy version, the hijacker is smart enough to hold a deadman switch 
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Dec 4, 2016 11:25
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Has any plane kidnapping ever had a bomb on board? The kidnappers always bullshit about that but I don't remember a case where they actually had one.
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Dec 4, 2016 11:33
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I saw flight plan once and the kidnapper kept jodie foster's daughter under the massive cargo space that it had and made her think she was crazy for having a daughter that didn't exist if anything i think they will do that the most, and play elaborate mind games with their passengers and their immediate family rather than have a bomb
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Dec 4, 2016 11:35
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Has any plane kidnapping ever had a bomb on board? The kidnappers always bullshit about that but I don't remember a case where they actually had one. One guy did manage to get a shoebomb on board, but never managed to activate it. Supposedly D B Cooper had a bomb, but it could have just been red cylinders in a briefcase. Also Pablo Escobar killed a gently caress load of people with plane bombings. Here's a wiki list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/timeline_of_airline_bombing_attacks Fulchrum has issued a correction as of 11:46 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 11:43
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Lol, how long was Jodie Foster's flight?
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Dec 4, 2016 11:44
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:What. No, they'd just rush the hijacker or more accurately, they'd all wait for someone else to do so first
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Dec 4, 2016 11:55
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I would gladly face terrorists in a 1v1 of San Francisco: Rush to save a plane.
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Dec 4, 2016 12:24
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I would gladly bomb a plane to ensure 1996 sleeper hit San Francisco Rush: Extreme Racing receives the appreciation and respect it deserves.
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Dec 4, 2016 12:44
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:because only neoliberal circlejerks are allowed even though actual party officials like Venom Snake know it's a road to failure lol
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Dec 4, 2016 14:06
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mannerup posted:lol
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Dec 4, 2016 14:17
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:What. No, they'd just rush the hijacker More like they'd tear each other to pieces over whether they should punch or kick the hijacker, while the hijacker stares on, not believing his luck.
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Dec 4, 2016 14:20
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SpaceGoku posted:I think americans don't care if they actually earn something or not, we just want to FEEL like we earned it We could bring back the Civilian Conservation Corps and expand it to add training in trade skills or free college tuition for those who participate. We can't just focus on "free college" because a large swath of this country sees college as "elitist" or a place where liberals reprogram your brain. These are also the people who wouldn't actually benefit from a college degree because the fields they want to work in don't necessarily require them. What they want - and I've heard this from conservative friends - is job training, apprenticeships, bringing back vocational technical studies. And they are right.
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Dec 4, 2016 15:16
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WarMECH posted:We could bring back the Civilian Conservation Corps and expand it to add training in trade skills or free college tuition for those who participate. Turning that into Free Education in general might get more traction, but again we're fighting an uphill battle against the folks who've been poisoning the idea of the public education system as liberal indoctrination camps in the eyes of Americans for the last thirty years. ALMOST AS THOUGH THERE WAS SOME KIND OF SINISTER PLAN OR SOMETHING It occurs to me, as someone with a religious background (and whose beliefs are kind of in a state of flux at the moment) that reclaiming Christianity as "good news for the poor" and opposing the (possibly literally) goddamned Prosperity Gospel is also an important battle that people of faith need to start fighting, like, yesterday. That's probably beyond the scope of this thread, or of the Democratic Party in general, though.
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Dec 4, 2016 15:29
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SpaceGoku posted:but what if instead, the government would subsidize your entire education if you worked for 20 hours a week in your home community on community service projects during your summer break, maybe even give them a little spending money they can put back into their home towns while they're at it, nothing much, like maybe $500 each summer or something on top of the education funding business I think this is exactly the kind of wonking itself to death the party should avoid. Maybe people don't like "free college" as a proposal, but they certainly aren't going to like "free in-state college with a means testing cap and a work requirement". Maybe these are the policies you end up with, but it shouldn't be where you start.
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Dec 4, 2016 16:18
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I don't think free college or really anything is a good platform regardless of how its phrased. The main issue with both parties, and the reason I think they waffle back and forth each decade, is that neither has an ultimate goal. Both are tied to maintaining the status quo in differing ways that boil down to "maintain capitalism, enrich the rich". That isn't productive and anything outside of it is a cookie thrown to the public to keep things stable, not a real solution. Neither side is interested in solutions to rid ourselves of problems. We could have stopped poverty whenever we wanted, but this doesn't happen because its not in the ruling interest. If it was purely morals based it would be gone and clearly these elites simply don't care. What we need is a party or group that is focused on an end goal for society and something to work towards. Lets consider free college, ok, so everyone goes to college. For what exactly? So they can get a job perpetuating the same system? Nah, we need free college directed towards massive government projects. I'm talking crazy poo poo like moon-bases, mars, reversing climate change, beautifying the entire country, regrowing old growth forests down to the local level with an army of community outreach that does meals on wheels, on the spot training and millions of other tasks. You don't say "here have free college do whatever", you say here have free college then help design a better America. Caveats are important and incentivizing. Please note my examples show my own preferences and aren't the end-all of lists, there are tons of things that need to and should be done.
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Dec 4, 2016 16:43
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Joementum posted:I think this is exactly the kind of wonking itself to death the party should avoid. Maybe people don't like "free college" as a proposal, but they certainly aren't going to like "free in-state college with a means testing cap and a work requirement". Maybe these are the policies you end up with, but it shouldn't be where you start. yeah I mean maybe if team blue gets control of stuff in earnest for a minute or two things like universal healthcare, free university education, student loan forgiveness, etc. can get passed and then it will be like obamacare is now: lots of complaining about it but no one having the balls to do anything but at the end of the day if we get a return to normalcy there will still be conservatives to negotiate with be they replubican or neoliberal democrat, and there will ALSO be the need to make policy that both serves and satisfies american voters, and a lot of american voters just feel belittled and disgraced by handouts so idk now to resolve that while also delivering services the government should be delivering
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Dec 4, 2016 16:45
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WarMECH posted:We could bring back the Civilian Conservation Corps and expand it to add training in trade skills or free college tuition for those who participate. Bring back the CCC on steroids. Provide people with work, decent pay, communal living spaces and work opportunities across the country. Almost a quasi-military organization but instead focused on preserving our natural resources and beauty. Add in infrastructure work since we need that more than almost anything. And it has to be in rural communities, people have to think of it as a local thing even if it is a federal program. Recruiters in every county, barracks/dorms in every state.
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Dec 4, 2016 16:46
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SpaceGoku posted:yeah I mean maybe if team blue gets control of stuff in earnest for a minute or two things like universal healthcare, free university education, student loan forgiveness, etc. can get passed and then it will be like obamacare is now: lots of complaining about it but no one having the balls to do anything I think the party should talk more about long-term goals, less about what they think is realistic to get passed in the next Congress.
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Dec 4, 2016 17:00
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Joementum posted:I think the party should talk more about long-term goals, less about what they think is realistic to get passed in the next Congress. I think figuring out how to design these necessary programs so that they are both appealing and effective to the people we need to vote for us is pretty fukken long term but then again I thought hillary clinton was gonna win the election so what the heck do I know
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Dec 4, 2016 17:04
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:so do you think a progressive would do the same thing? I would hope so, in a more socially useful way. Centrist Democrats are bad and effectively worse than George W. Bush on this front is what I'm saying.
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Dec 4, 2016 17:16
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LegoPirateNinja posted:I would hope so, in a more socially useful way. Centrist Democrats are bad and effectively worse than George W. Bush on this front is what I'm saying. I could go for some W right now, that poo poo would go down smooth
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Dec 4, 2016 17:26
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Not a Step posted:We need a wealth tax in the worst way. We could also just murder the top 100 richest people. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 4, 2016 17:47
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Mike the TV posted:We could also just murder the top 100 richest people. what about warren buffett and billg though I know we need to eat the rich etc but a couple of them seem like ok dudes e: to clarify billg is Bill Gates e2: also arguably Elon Musk, I think he's doing some genuinely good things even if he himself might not be the most perfect human being loquacius has issued a correction as of 17:50 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 17:47
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Drunkboxer posted:I could go for some W right now, that poo poo would go down smooth thats my bush
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Dec 4, 2016 17:56
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loquacius posted:what about warren buffett and billg though as long as they're putting money towards getting us off this idiot planet they may live. capital hoarders go to the guillotine.
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Dec 4, 2016 17:57
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Joementum posted:I think the party should talk more about long-term goals, less about what they think is realistic to get passed in the next Congress. this, the GOP had fully Zero short term goals except Block The Democrats and they've been repeatedly rewarded for it
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Dec 4, 2016 18:00
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Mike the TV posted:We could also just murder the top 100 richest people. this only works if you also murder all their heirs or abolish the intergenerational transfer of wealth which would also be good ideas obviously, just saying it's slightly more work than murdering the 100
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Dec 4, 2016 18:04
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Atrocious Joe posted:Couldn't the Dems promise make work programs? Or even useful stuff like eco tourism developments, environmental reclamation, basic infrastructure. not only does that not solve the problem (this is not 1935, many infrastructure jobs are skilled labor) but the past 8 years have seen coal-related jobs shed 83,000 jobs across the country. these are $70,000 a year jobs and people here are talking about replacing them with hourly jobs. that's not gonna win the loyalties of west virginians. while it's not "literally impossible" and i think at the end of the day this sort of program would be useful, the total cost over the lifetime of a program to raise the standard of living in the appalachian region would almost certainly be one of the largest social programs in us history, if not the largest. and even still, these sorts of public works programs are stop-gaps but not long term solutions. the entire region won't be employed by the us government, and finding a diverse array of industry willing to build and locate in this area will be challenging, and there's no clear road map. Concerned Citizen has issued a correction as of 18:21 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 18:14
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