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That noise the mobile armor makes sounds like a trumpet heralding the apocalypse. 
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Dec 12, 2016 01:52
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ImpAtom posted:Nah, it's actually pretty standard for modern Gundam suits to be strong against both in some fashion. 00 obviously has GN particle stuff that allowed both physical and beam resistance (especially with actual particle fields), Gundam Wing's Gundanium Alloy heavily resists all damage, and Gundam Age's bullshit armor requires you to make laser beams that are also drills to damage it. G-Self naturally has Photon Armor which is insane bullshit only matched by everything else having insane bullshit and Turn-A is nanomachine superarmor. I admit there has been a wide variety of beam based bullshit across Gundam serieses, but from what we've got... I'd say Nano-Laminate is on the high end. Mostly, beam protection equipment goes on the high end suits, wears out under sustained or heavy fire, doesn't defend against physical attacks, or some combination of the three. A grunt suit with it managed to tank a sustained blast from the main cannon of a city destroying superweapon, and the only damage was losing a hand. And it only lost the hand because it cooked the rifle's ammo. It's not the absolute bullshit of the G-Self or the Turns, and it's not the confusing nonsense of Age's drill... thingy, but it's pretty solid, in addition to being balanced so as to keep the fights nice and brutal. The area where this really makes Post Disaster poo poo over other timelines, though, is battleships. We already knew that their armor is tougher than a MS, and that in the hands of an expert pilot like Eugene they could be fairly maneuverable, but with this little bit of information, we know that the Isaribi, for example, could just ignore the main cannons of a ship like the Archangel and ram the sucker. Really emphasizes the bit about how the best way to take on a battleship is boarding actions, I suppose.
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Dec 12, 2016 01:54
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chiasaur11 posted:Mostly, beam protection equipment goes on the high end suits, wears out under sustained or heavy fire, doesn't defend against physical attacks, or some combination of the three. As written, Nanolaminate also wears out under extended fire. We haven't really seen it but reapplying the nanolaminate covering is part of the maintenance. It's also a case where the strength of the armor depends on the Ahab reactors and how they're synchronized. It's certainly pretty strong but it isn't invincible god armor. (Which is good because invincible god armor would kind of suck.) That is outside of carriers which apparently are basically invincible flying bricks because of their sheer size and Ahab reactors. Nanolaminate armor only really resists significantly against physical ranged attacks. Close-up bludgeoning weapons or anything that can get into the cracks of its armor like the sword are both more than effective. (Ironically, Strike's Armor Schnider knives would probably be more useful than a lot of other weapons against IBO machines because they're solid weapons designed to penetrate armor.) Nanolaminate Armor is interesting in that it fills basically the same role as Minovsky Particles.It means you can't fight at range and forces melee combat. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 02:08
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The combination of the ahab plus nano armor is insanely strong given how prevalent it is in the series. Its almost entirely passive absolute resistance to beams that remain operating as long as the neverending power of an ahab reactor doesnt fail. Its so definitive that it rendered beam weapons useless in the setting. The most common form of weaponry in Gundam, rendered useless by even the most grunt of grunt units
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Dec 12, 2016 02:09
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The combination of the ahab plus nano armor is insanely strong given how prevalent it is in the series. Its almost entirely passive absolute resistance to beams that remain operating as long as the neverending power of an ahab reactor doesnt fail. Its so definitive that it rendered beam weapons useless in the setting. The most common form of weaponry in Gundam, rendered useless by even the most grunt of grunt units I think the "literally all beam weapons ever are worthless, IBO is the STRONGEST!" is silly. It's impossible to say what precisely level it could stand up to without melting. We already know that Nanolaminate Armor can be melted by napalm for example.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:21
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It's not like it needs or relies on the beam to win. It took out a whole squad of presumably elite royal pilots in a matter of seconds with its tail and infinite spawns. I'm going to safely assume it's way too strong for the Gundams to take head-on if they're planning ambushes on it.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:23
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Calling bets on the Good Doggy having to warcrime railgun it into a state where Gusion and Barbatos can shank the ever loving poo poo out of it and McGillis having to ask them very nicely to not warcrime with their railguns in the future.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:26
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ImpAtom posted:I think the "literally all beam weapons ever are worthless, IBO is the STRONGEST!" is silly. It's impossible to say what precisely level it could stand up to without melting. We already know that Nanolaminate Armor can be melted by napalm for example. And almost every universe has a different explanation for "beam" weapons. Beams made of GN particles or Minovsky particles work on completely different principles than the beam weapons from Age or Wing
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Dec 12, 2016 02:26
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ImpAtom posted:As written, Nanolaminate also wears out under extended fire. We haven't really seen it but reapplying the nanolaminate covering is part of the maintenance. We've seen it mentioned as part of the process several times when Mika or someone else has to bring their suits to Yamagi and Nadi for repairs. We also saw McGillis doing some serious damage to Mika's boosters in the first season with that little trick. But that's sustained fire from physical weapons. It seems, from the way it was deflected, that the rules might be different for beams. Especially because most of the visible damage came from the ammo in Ride's rifle cooking in his hand. (Which, neat! Nice little detail.) Anyway, the only place it's going to actually be relevant how beams from other continuities interact with IBO suits is Super Robot Wars, and that plays by its own rules. Best not to worry about it too much beyond the fact that fights are going to stay up close and personal for the foreseeable future.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:35
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chiasaur11 posted:I admit there has been a wide variety of beam based bullshit across Gundam serieses, but from what we've got... I'd say Nano-Laminate is on the high end. That only applies if the Archangel doesn't whip out its Lohengrins, though. Plasma beams are one thing, but you ain't coming back from an antimatter blast to the face. Unless you're Mu La Flaga, of course. One thing I liked in this episode and the ones leading up to it is the tragic inevitability of it all. Iok may have been a hotheaded idiot, but he wasn't just a hotheaded idiot. He was operating on two totally accurate assumptions - that McGillis is the slimiest, least trustworthy person in the solar system, and that since he and Tekkadan are angling for an absolute interplanetary dictatorship, killing the Hashmal is an instant win condition for them whether they know it or not. McGillis here is the boy who cried wolf getting eaten alive, and while he's greatly increasing the risk of genocide by giant robot, Gaelio is also actively fighting the certainty of instant space Hitler. This is the problem with throwing out the rulebook and playing dirty and pragmatic to get what you want - it works right up until you need to rely on other people's trust.
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Dec 12, 2016 03:02
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Counterpoint: the Mobile Armor reacting to Ahab Reactors is not something unknown, McGillis knew it - we can assume that it is known to the higher strata of Gyallarhorn, or at the very least to the Seven Stars. There is no reason for Iok not to know this beyond being an absolute idiot, which is exactly what the series constantly paints him as. He acted without basic knowledge, close to a super weapon he didn't know how it could react, without any sort of precautions. Despite the knowledge he needed being something that McGillis knew and that I strongly suspect Gaevidar and Rustal should know as well. I smell foul play but not from McGillis (I mean, definitely from McGillis, but not only from him this time). Someone kept this knowledge away from Iok for some reason.
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Dec 12, 2016 04:17
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Blaze Dragon posted:Counterpoint: the Mobile Armor reacting to Ahab Reactors is not something unknown, McGillis knew it - we can assume that it is known to the higher strata of Gyallarhorn, or at the very least to the Seven Stars. There is no reason for Iok not to know this beyond being an absolute idiot, which is exactly what the series constantly paints him as. I'm leaning Rustal right now, with allowances for the possibility Gali-Gali was in on it too. Rustal's playing the same games as McGillis, after all. If he lets Iok go down and die, it removes a troublesome element, looks bad for McGillis even aside from direct damage, and maybe even provides casus belli for going after the Outer Earth Orbit Regulatory Joint Fleet (persistent and fortitudinous!) without bothering with deniability. I've said it before, but (although it could all fall apart) Iron Blooded Orphans has done a pretty good job of showing clever bastards screwing each other over without going for the stupid cliches common to the format. McGillis and Rustal are both clever, but they make mistakes and adapt to new opportunities as they arise rather than going from the same playbook no matter what happens. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 04:39
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Darth Walrus posted:That only applies if the Archangel doesn't whip out its Lohengrins, though. Plasma beams are one thing, but you ain't coming back from an antimatter blast to the face. Unless you're Mu La Flaga, of course. Honestly the Lohengrin's seem pretty drat close to on part with the blast that Ride just sucked to the face for no effect. The Lohengrin is basically the SEED variant of a Hyper Mega Particle Cannon off of something like the Nahel Argama, which seems pretty comparable to what we just saw from the IBO mobile armor. Though I do have a soft spot for the Lohengrin I will admit. ImpAtom posted:I think the "literally all beam weapons ever are worthless, IBO is the STRONGEST!" is silly. It's impossible to say what precisely level it could stand up to without melting. We already know that Nanolaminate Armor can be melted by napalm for example. Except that is exactly how it is being portrayed with regards to beams. A lovely grunt suit took a sustained direct hit from a mobile armor's city destroying main beam weapon and the only components that appeared to be heavily damaged in the aftermath were the unarmored rifle that cooked off. Chad even commented "Yeah, he'll be fine, his armor can take it." This is really unusual for beam weapons in any gundam setting. From your list earlier (just regarding armor): Gundam Wing - Gundanium is drat close to immune to physical attacks at range but gets wrecked when faced with 'high output' beam weapons. The Deathscythe dies to a Beam Cannon equipped Taurus and Gundanium constructed Virgo Mobile Dolls die by the hundreds in the latter part of the show. 00 - E-Carbon is effectively immune to physical projectiles, though it does seem to be possible to damage it at close range judging by the attempt to take off Exia's head via smirnov. All four original gundams get trashed by mobile suit based weaponry and E-Carbon suits die by the thousands to beam weapons in the films. GN-Fields do a lot to improve survivability, but outside of actual Gundams they aren't exactly common or reliable. Age - Is retarded. G-Self and Turn-A - Magic prototype machines whose power swings wildly depending on what the needs of the plot. I'll agree they're both retardedly powerful, but I liken them to Silver Age Superman in that they can get knocked the gently caress out by Captain Blaster in one issue and take a punch from Super God in the next. The point that I and others were making is that as far as standard armor in Gundam as a series goes, Nano-Laminate seems surprisingly good. A good comparison would be like an Anti-Phase Shift. It appears to be totally immune to beam weapons, to the point that nothing in the series even bothers carrying them, but unlike phase shift it also makes you immune to most long range physical projectiles as well. It has it's weaknesses of course, because a show where every mobile suit is immune to damage would... well actually that might be kind of interesting. But as far as standard issue armor in a Gundam show comes, I still think it is definitely at the top of the pile.
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Dec 12, 2016 04:45
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Why are we even trying to compare the relative power of robots from multiple universes operating on completely different technology?
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Dec 12, 2016 04:57
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Anyone have a gif of the Barbatos just kind of floating up out of the canyon
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Dec 12, 2016 04:58
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chiasaur11 posted:I'm leaning Rustal right now, with allowances for the possibility Gali-Gali was in on it too. Rustal's playing the same games as McGillis, after all. If he lets Iok go down and die, it removes a troublesome element, looks bad for McGillis even aside from direct damage, and maybe even provides casus belli for going after the Outer Earth Orbit Regulatory Joint Fleet (persistent and fortitudinous!) without bothering with deniability. Given that Iok seems somewhere between 17 and 20 (I don't recall, was a specific age given?), he probably should have known this, if it is generally known among the Seven Stars families at least, well before Gali-Gali popped up there. Possibly before he became Rustal's protege as well, though the timeframe becomes somewhat more unclear there. Honestly, given how absurdly unlikely finding a Mobile Armor to enact this theoretical scheme involving withholding that information in the first place would be, I'm generally on the side of it's simply due to him being a loving idiot, again, rather than any grand scheme by the others.
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Dec 12, 2016 05:06
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There's definitely something weird going on with Vidar and I don't think it's going to be a straight up "Gaelio trying to get revenge on McGillis" subplot but I have no idea what it could be and the show's not giving us a lot to go on
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Dec 12, 2016 05:08
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Lord Koth posted:Given that Iok seems somewhere between 17 and 20 (I don't recall, was a specific age given?), he probably should have known this, if it is generally known among the Seven Stars families at least, well before Gali-Gali popped up there. Possibly before he became Rustal's protege as well, though the timeframe becomes somewhat more unclear there. Honestly, given how absurdly unlikely finding a Mobile Armor to enact this theoretical scheme involving withholding that information in the first place would be, I'm generally on the side of it's simply due to him being a loving idiot, again, rather than any grand scheme by the others. I'm not thinking it's a long term plan. I'm thinking that it's playing the cards as they come off the deck. Rustal's worked with Iok for years, he knows the guy's a loving idiot and he knows from the start of this little mess that he doesn't know anything about Mobile Armor, despite that being basic enough knowledge that uplifted street rat Julieta considers it astounding Iok doesn't get it. Either Rustal went in assuming "Alright, Iok's a dumbass, but even he can't be so stupid as to wake up a Mobile Armor, so it's fine if he heads off." and is now regretting it, or he went "Right. Iok's a dumbass, so he's going to ruin whatever McGillis is planning through sheer force of stupid, and we can take out one Mobile Armor, right?" and is now spindling his fingers. But, as I said, this could be Vidar's play too. There's just the smell of some plotting that isn't coming from McGillis.
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Dec 12, 2016 05:30
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I like that McGillis had no idea about the Order of the Seven Stars, but it sounds like a good plan so why the hell not?
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Dec 12, 2016 05:34
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Kinda like how McGillis was killing off or collecting ( ) Seven Star family heads so he could rule in their name, Rustal might be looking to do the same with Iok. I'd be surprised if he expected Iok to do more than throw a wrench in McGillis' plan before coming back in a body bag. Rustal could also leverage Iok's death in some way, like pin it on Tekkadan.
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Dec 12, 2016 05:47
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My pet theory is that Gaelio wants to get revenge on McGillis and spite him by rooting out the corruption within Gjallarhorn. By allying with Rustal, he gets a good look at some of his dealings so he'll have an idea of how to gently caress up the only group (so far, at least) within Gjallarhorn that is proactively going against McGillis.
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Dec 12, 2016 06:50
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I like that McGillis had no idea about the Order of the Seven Stars, but it sounds like a good plan so why the hell not? I don't think he was unaware of it - he's done way too much research to not know about it. He just very legitimately hadn't even considered it until it became a matter of "gently caress it, may as well" after Iok shat everything up.
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Dec 12, 2016 06:58
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Oh Snapple! posted:I don't think he was unaware of it - he's done way too much research to not know about it. Here's a thought; Tekkadan/Orga wind up with the Order instead somehow. Having even just one'd be a supreme upset for all concerned.
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Dec 12, 2016 07:02
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Here's a thought; Mika it totally going to kill the Mobile Armor, and I bet McGillis is just going to roll with it because he is secretly Mikazuki's biggest fan.
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Dec 12, 2016 07:14
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Oh Snapple! posted:I don't think he was unaware of it - he's done way too much research to not know about it. It turns out "reactivate an ancient, mass-murdering AI superweapon then kill it for political gains" was not something McGillis was willing to do, although now that it's awake through someone else's fault, may as well get the political gains in the process of killing it to stop it from murdering thousands.
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Dec 12, 2016 08:12
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McGillis just seems like a dork when it comes to murder machines from the past. He was just excited to see the thing so much he forgot about the order. Hell he is even like "yo Mika isnt that poo poo cool?"
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Dec 12, 2016 09:45
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Blaze Dragon posted:Counterpoint: the Mobile Armor reacting to Ahab Reactors is not something unknown, McGillis knew it - we can assume that it is known to the higher strata of Gyallarhorn, or at the very least to the Seven Stars. There is no reason for Iok not to know this beyond being an absolute idiot, which is exactly what the series constantly paints him as. Should he have known that, though? Mobile Armours haven't been around for three hundred years, and even among Earth aristocrats, McGillis is portrayed as a specialist Calamity War scholar. Yeah, he rushed in without thinking, but a big part of that seems to be because the most clued-in character in the entire show is also the least trustworthy.
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Dec 12, 2016 10:56
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Darth Walrus posted:Should he have known that, though? Mobile Armours haven't been around for three hundred years, and even among Earth aristocrats, McGillis is portrayed as a specialist Calamity War scholar. Yeah, he rushed in without thinking, but a big part of that seems to be because the most clued-in character in the entire show is also the least trustworthy. Knowing exactly how a Mobile Armour operates is not what he failed to show. He failed to understand one of the basic facts of a Mobile Armour, that its programming made it specifically target Mobile Suits before anything else. Hell, he should have caught on to the fact that McGillis and Tekkedan did not bring any mobile suits and that there could be a reason for that. Hell, he makes Carta seem smart for all of her idiocy her screw ups only effected her and her subordinates whilst Iok could potentially doom the entire of Mars to die.
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Dec 12, 2016 12:03
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Hunt11 posted:Knowing exactly how a Mobile Armour operates is not what he failed to show. He failed to understand one of the basic facts of a Mobile Armour, that its programming made it specifically target Mobile Suits before anything else. Hell, he should have caught on to the fact that McGillis and Tekkedan did not bring any mobile suits and that there could be a reason for that. Hell, he makes Carta seem smart for all of her idiocy her screw ups only effected her and her subordinates whilst Iok could potentially doom the entire of Mars to die. He didn't know a drat thing about them, meaning for one he didn't really know much about the Calamity War, the most significant conflict ever know, or how or why it was fought, and which lead to the Seven Stars of which he is a loving part. That is only dumb, but what's awful is that he pretended to know when Julieta chided him on his ignorance. I have to think they are setting up for Julieta to put Iok down, possibly on her own initiative before he can do even more damage. Maybe she even has a shot at the Order of the Seven Stars?
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Dec 12, 2016 12:16
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Hunt11 posted:Knowing exactly how a Mobile Armour operates is not what he failed to show. He failed to understand one of the basic facts of a Mobile Armour, that its programming made it specifically target Mobile Suits before anything else. Hell, he should have caught on to the fact that McGillis and Tekkedan did not bring any mobile suits and that there could be a reason for that. Hell, he makes Carta seem smart for all of her idiocy her screw ups only effected her and her subordinates whilst Iok could potentially doom the entire of Mars to die. Again, is that basic? MAs are well-known as omnicidal enemies of humanity, but knowing that it's suits specifically that set 'em off seems like more specialised knowledge. Not bringing along suits can also be a sign of confidence, that Tekkadan and McGillis know this thing won't be waking up any time soon and feel they can just manually dismantle it.
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Dec 12, 2016 12:18
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There's one question no-one seems to be asking; Who made the Mobile Armors?
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Dec 12, 2016 12:26
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Neddy Seagoon posted:There's one question no-one seems to be asking; It is interesting but I don't think we can speculate yet, we know so little of the pre-Calamity War world so far. Since this one is on Mars and seems to be suited to wiping out population centers, perhaps the idea was to clear everyone off Mars, so maybe an anti-spacenoid faction on Earth. Or just generally a mess of different nations, ultimately developing MAs out of all their conflicts until the Calamity War where they go wild, ultimately leading to Gyallarhorn, the development of Mobile Suits and Earths unification under the blocs we've seen. Was the ahab reactor a Calamity War development? Seems like if they were available they should have been on MAs so they didn't need to nab resources like that. So TL;DR we can't speculate, here's my speculation.
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Dec 12, 2016 12:39
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BizarroAzrael posted:He didn't know a drat thing about them, meaning for one he didn't really know much about the Calamity War, the most significant conflict ever know, or how or why it was fought, and which lead to the Seven Stars of which he is a loving part. That is only dumb, but what's awful is that he pretended to know when Julieta chided him on his ignorance. Iok was also showing the same characteristic hubris that other GH members were showing just taken up to a higher level. Oh its tech from 300 years ago there is no way we cant deal with it. Not only that he has a complete misunderstanding on how his own suit works. Hes a raging idiot. An Idiok if you will. E- youd think whatever book McG is constantly reading would be mandatory reading in whatever officer university they have in IBO. Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 13:47
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I wonder if a Hashmal can produce other Hashmals, if it's left alone to gather enough poo poo.
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Dec 12, 2016 14:15
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Lemon-Lime posted:It turns out "reactivate an ancient, mass-murdering AI superweapon then kill it for political gains" was not something McGillis was willing to do, although now that it's awake through someone else's fault, may as well get the political gains in the process of killing it to stop it from murdering thousands. I see it another way. Rustal and Iok were operating under the idea that he'd just kill the inactive mobile armor and then show it off. Unless Rustal is just grossly misinformed, he'd know that a mobile armor is no pushover. You don't need to reactivate it to kill it, it's just that McGillis was incredibly cautious with it because he feared the worst. McGillis probably didn't care for getting the Order of the Seven Stars because his plans to reform Gjallarhorn thus far have been through unofficial channels rather than proper ones. Season 1 already showed that Gjallarhorn aren't exactly paragons of integrity. They kept doing research on the Alaya-Vijnana System despite their public stance of cybernetics = bad, and then went ahead and used it on one of their own. And then there's all that corruption and backroom dealing going against their supposed neutrality. Any sort of gains McGillis could make through the proper channels would only last so long as the rest of the Seven Stars and their factions are willing to respect them. An Order of the Seven Stars was not worth potentially waking up the mobile armor in the process, but now that the mobile armor is active, why not? It'd put him closer to Agnika Kaieru, who is pretty much a hero figure to him.
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Dec 12, 2016 14:24
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BizarroAzrael posted:He didn't know a drat thing about them, meaning for one he didn't really know much about the Calamity War, the most significant conflict ever know, or how or why it was fought, and which lead to the Seven Stars of which he is a loving part. That is only dumb, but what's awful is that he pretended to know when Julieta chided him on his ignorance. The thing is, Iok is in contact with people who have more knowledge about Mobile Armors than he does. It seems that everyone on Gjallahorn's side is underestimating how dumb Iok really is, and mistakenly didn't tell him to not bring mobile suits because they thought he already knew. But after a few more fuckups, Rustal and the others will start to realize how much a liability he really is.
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Dec 12, 2016 15:57
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The thing I'm most curious about is how exactly the Mobile Armor creates those Pluma if left to its own devices. Hard to imagine it sitting around putting them together like gunpla.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:17
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Overlord K posted:The thing I'm most curious about is how exactly the Mobile Armor creates those Pluma if left to its own devices. Hard to imagine it sitting around putting them together like gunpla. All jokes aside "nanomachines" could be the answer, it isn't like the IBO setting doesn't have 'em. Might be beyond the scope of IBO nanomachines but hey, it's the catch-all sci-fi explanation.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:24
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Overlord K posted:The thing I'm most curious about is how exactly the Mobile Armor creates those Pluma if left to its own devices. Hard to imagine it sitting around putting them together like gunpla. Presumably it has an internal factory, and then poops them out.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:28
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BizarroAzrael posted:It is interesting but I don't think we can speculate yet, we know so little of the pre-Calamity War world so far. Since this one is on Mars and seems to be suited to wiping out population centers, perhaps the idea was to clear everyone off Mars, so maybe an anti-spacenoid faction on Earth. Or just generally a mess of different nations, ultimately developing MAs out of all their conflicts until the Calamity War where they go wild, ultimately leading to Gyallarhorn, the development of Mobile Suits and Earths unification under the blocs we've seen. I think the mobile armor is supposed to be equipped with an Ahab reactor. The point of it stealing fuel isn't so that it can keep running, it's just propelent for it's boosters/jump jets/whatever. Even the Barbatos needs fuel. They've been pretty good about keeping things like that in mind and thst part was probably to cover over a plot hole as well as tell us how the thing can go non stop. The fuel is probably also for the plumas come to think of it, unless they are electrically charged.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:24
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