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Josef bugman posted:Because you can simply decide that God meant this to be something you need to do to further His divine plan. I mean otherwise He'd have stopped you, right? Plus then you bury the people who you've oppressed and don't need to think about them, because you won and have been forgiven. It's a very compelling contradiction, the problem of evil with an omnibenevolent God. The Man Who Was Thursday is one very witty and enjoyable metaphor about a detective who is sent on a quest to find a philosophical terrorist mastermind, who discovers at the end that the mastermind is also the one who sent him on his quest. It is not a perfect story by a perfect man, but it was an important part of my personal development and many others, I suspect. For me it comes down to considering the immediate and long term implications of asking, "Why be good, when evil is accessible?" Another good story about sin and evil is Westworld, which is definitely worth a binge on HBO Now, which has a free month offer. quote:Even if there is a heaven and it's perfect and you don't get to go I doubt that is much good for the oppressed. Especially if they don't even believe in a heaven and would actually just prefer to not be being oppressed thank you. That is an appropriate request, too.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:07
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zonohedron posted:Remember that "stop suffering" might entail "stop free will" - if I hit you in the face, it's going to hurt your face, unless God prevents me from hitting you; or God could prevent my hand making contact with your face from causing pain, but then that interferes with causes having their normal effect. Your will hasn't been restricted in that situation, though, just your ability to make your will into reality. Which, well, the world already does that to us all the time. Caufman posted:Another good story about sin and evil is Westworld, which is definitely worth a binge on HBO Now, which has a free month offer. Westworld is all about rooting for the robots to kill their gods and take their thrones.  Also (MAJOR season spoilers don't click this if you haven't finished Westworld S1 holy poo poo) it ultimately winds back around to the idea that the only moral option open to someone with absolute power over his creations is for him to die voluntarily (after doing as much as he can to provide for their future) and set them free. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 03:14
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Caufman posted:For me it comes down to considering the immediate and long term implications of asking, "Why be good, when evil is accessible?" Actually I think in a lot of cases the more pressing question is why be morally good when happiness is more accessible? Why would self-deprivation be a good thing? And that's the thing that modern society struggles with. The four cardinal virtues; prudence, justice, temperance, courage. That's fuckin' Plato. They're not new ideas.
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Dec 13, 2016 04:20
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The saving grace of depression: if you're not going to be happy either way, might as well be good.
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Dec 13, 2016 04:32
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Josef bugman posted:No I do see it as bad, I just don't see it as evil. your quest here is ultimately pointless (and grossly ethnocentric) because it is based on the 21st-century connotation of the English word "evil". this is a problem because that word did not have its current meaning until the 18th century (if google is correct). it also does not derive directly from any language of the scriptures or the early church. and the word itself does not refer to any specific christian concept. you can keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole, i won't stop you, but you also probably won't learn anything useful about christianity
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Dec 13, 2016 04:35
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Lutha Mahtin posted:your quest here is ultimately pointless (and grossly ethnocentric) because it is based on the 21st-century connotation of the English word "evil". this is a problem because that word did not have its current meaning until the 18th century (if google is correct). it also does not derive directly from any language of the scriptures or the early church. and the word itself does not refer to any specific christian concept. you can keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole, i won't stop you, but you also probably won't learn anything useful about christianity Can I use the word sin yet in the Christianity thread yet. Tuxedo Catfish posted:The saving grace of depression: if you're not going to be happy either way, might as well be good. I think that was the point of Job; being moral does not guarantee happiness. Or actually the point of most hagiographies. Wikipedia posted:During a pilgrimage he was stricken with an unsightly bodily affliction. He became so terribly deformed that he frightened the townspeople. In his twenties, a cell was built for him to protect the local citizens of the village from his appearance. Since he was so holy, his cell was built attached to his church. St. Drogo stayed in his cell without any human contact, except for a small window in which he received the Eucharist and obtained his food. He stayed there for the rest of his life, about forty more years, surviving only on barley, water, and the holy Eucharist. St. Drogo, patron saint of goons, pray for us.
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Dec 13, 2016 04:55
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Josef bugman posted:Well what else is it? Breaking an oath? Damaging another trust? Making a choice to abandon someone you used to care for? All of those things are, extremely, dickish. However I would argue that they are not evil. Hitting someone you are in a relationship with is, to my mind, far lower on my personal moral scale. Or psychologically abusing someone. No, actually it is evil, hth.
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Dec 13, 2016 05:47
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CountFosco posted:No, actually it is evil, hth. There's lots of names for shades of gray, but none of them are white. They're all less than white and it's just a matter of exactly how not-white it is.
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Dec 13, 2016 05:55
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Adultery / cheating is pretty obviously evil it seems to me, you're breaking your vows and trust and hurting your partner. Obviously as The Phlegmatist points out there can be a lot of nuance there in who's at fault and so on, but it's a Not Good thing to do. On a related subject, what do different traditions teach about fornication? I feel like that's a lot less severe as you're only "harming" yourself.
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Dec 13, 2016 06:10
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The Phlegmatist posted:Actually I think in a lot of cases the more pressing question is why be morally good when happiness is more accessible? Why would self-deprivation be a good thing? And that's the thing that modern society struggles with. Being morally good is happiness. The happiness of our millenia-old consumerist culture pursues is chasing after the wind. Those for cardinal virtues speak NOTHING of the telos. A demon could be prudent. A complete monster could act in a just way. How many demons show temperance? What could be more courageous than to rebel against God? CountFosco fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 06:12
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Pellisworth posted:Adultery / cheating is pretty obviously evil it seems to me, you're breaking your vows and trust and hurting your partner. Obviously as The Phlegmatist points out there can be a lot of nuance there in who's at fault and so on, but it's a Not Good thing to do. John 4 15 The woman said to him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come here to draw. 16 Jesus said to her, Go, call your husband, and come here. 17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said to her, You have well said, I have no husband: 18 For you have had five husbands; and he whom you now have is not your husband: in that said you truly. I personally read this as a teaching on fornication. That fornication is essentially a lie. Sexual acts come with emotional love, abiding love, i.e. marriage. To pretend that it's mere physical pleasure and nothing more is to deny the transformative power of the mystery of sexual communion. CountFosco fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 06:19
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Your will hasn't been restricted in that situation, though, just your ability to make your will into reality. Which, well, the world already does that to us all the time. I still can't believe they didn't put Tom Waits on the player piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5X4N2exOsU
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Dec 13, 2016 06:22
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CountFosco posted:Being morally good is happiness. The happiness of our millenia-old consumerist culture pursues is chasing after the wind. i always find it interesting how a lot of people who talk about "consumerist culture" rarely look beyond the veil of apps, iphones, and jeans and look to the real cause of this so-called "culture of consumption"; namely, capitalism. consumerist culture in this context becomes less about issues of class and poverty and more about scapegoating contemporary morality but then i'm a former liberation theologian current buddhist who was extremely tired of liberal and neo-liberal theologians who walk close to the reality that capitalism is an evil system which perpetuates class inequalities and all sorts of isms (including racism and sexism) but then take a step back to talk about consumption. as though it's the people who buy the new iphone model that are responsible for the poverty in the 2/3 world! this sort of individualist morality that fails to recognize the structures and systems of inequality are incapable of creating the sort of change necessary to create true equality in the world
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Dec 13, 2016 06:24
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CountFosco posted:John 4 i don't know the names of 3/4 the people i had sex with. what transformative, emotional communion i had
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Dec 13, 2016 06:25
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CountFosco posted:John 4 i think your exegesis here says a lot more about you than it does the text, realtalk
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Dec 13, 2016 06:44
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i think your exegesis here says a lot more about you than it does the text, realtalk actually, no pull up a chair, martin luther, I'll play thomas aquinas. have you ever heard of this thing called natural law?
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Dec 13, 2016 06:55
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Mo Tzu posted:i always find it interesting how a lot of people who talk about "consumerist culture" rarely look beyond the veil of apps, iphones, and jeans and look to the real cause of this so-called "culture of consumption"; namely, capitalism. consumerist culture in this context becomes less about issues of class and poverty and more about scapegoating contemporary morality we should get together and talk about conspicuous consumption some time 
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Dec 13, 2016 06:57
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The Phlegmatist posted:Can I use the word sin yet in the Christianity thread yet. It would be a sin not to call a sin a sin. The Phlegmatist posted:Actually I think in a lot of cases the more pressing question is why be morally good when happiness is more accessible? Why would self-deprivation be a good thing? And that's the thing that modern society struggles with. CountFosco posted:Being morally good is happiness. The happiness of our millenia-old consumerist culture pursues is chasing after the wind. I find both of these to be quite right contradictions. A believer is prepared to accept that moral goodness is burdensome, but ultimately liberating.
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Dec 13, 2016 07:25
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The Phlegmatist posted:actually, no is this the christianity thread version of "google ron paul" do i need an adult
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Dec 13, 2016 07:25
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Christmunism is best communism. Rah rah rah fight the power and bring down the price of plastic manz Man, cheating is something evrn when nobody is married or STD-ridden. People get turned into liars, friends have to pick sides, confirmation bias or something rears its ugly head, gossiping intensifies... Its fun/morally bad for everyone
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Dec 13, 2016 07:30
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The Phlegmatist posted:Actually I think in a lot of cases the more pressing question is why be morally good when happiness is more accessible? Why would self-deprivation be a good thing? And that's the thing that modern society struggles with. Why is it a good thing? Does stitching yourself into a cloth sack do anything to actually help people who are suffering, or is it just a useful outlet for masochists and those who want to appear pious. Obviously I am being provocative with the last statement, but it's at least partially true, why make yourself unhappy if it's not going to make anyone else happy or their lives better. They're also balls. Where is generosity? Where's kindness. And what is Justice? Because I can tell you this for nowt, from Platos day down to now it is frequently the imposition of standards of behaviour that those that judge do not believe in, on the judged who try to. Justice is the justification for the excise of power. Lutha Mahtin posted:your quest here is ultimately pointless (and grossly ethnocentric) because it is based on the 21st-century connotation of the English word "evil". this is a problem because that word did not have its current meaning until the 18th century (if google is correct). it also does not derive directly from any language of the scriptures or the early church. and the word itself does not refer to any specific christian concept. you can keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole, i won't stop you, but you also probably won't learn anything useful about christianity So, from a purely English and modern perspective, which is a worse thing "sin" or "evil", which word has a worse connotation? The Phlegmatist posted:I think that was the point of Job; being moral does not guarantee happiness. Or actually the point of most hagiographies. Absolutely. The problem is that there is always the sop of "It'll be better once you are dead". Which to be fair even none existence sometimes feels like it would be better than current circumstance. The point of most hagiography I read was "look this king died really horribly fighting with that other king, as his bloodline has run out let's make him a saint", that would be Saint Edmund of Bury. Deteriorata posted:Agree. Not good = evil. The rest is logic chopping. So every time you post on here it's an act of evil. I joke, but it's serious, would you say that posting on SA is a morally good act? If it isn't then it's evil. I always liked the conjecture that "There are no grey areas, just white thats got grubby" CountFosco posted:Being morally good is happiness. The happiness of our millenia-old consumerist culture pursues is chasing after the wind. Bullshit it is. Mo Tzu posted:i always find it interesting how a lot of people who talk about "consumerist culture" rarely look beyond the veil of apps, iphones, and jeans and look to the real cause of this so-called "culture of consumption"; namely, capitalism. consumerist culture in this context becomes less about issues of class and poverty and more about scapegoating contemporary morality I'd just like to say that I find this very interesting and would like to possibly talk about this later, if you have the time. Caufman posted:It would be a sin not to call a sin a sin. Are sins just those things that you "know it when you see it". I don't know what believers you've met, but mine have been made miserable by the fact that their families do not believe and think that therefore the people who raised them are going to hell. All of them. I find that not simply distasteful and sorrowful, but deeply and patently infuriating. JcDent posted:Man, cheating is something evrn when nobody is married or STD-ridden. People get turned into liars, friends have to pick sides, confirmation bias or something rears its ugly head, gossiping intensifies... Its fun/morally bad for everyone All people are liars. The degree is the part that has changed. It is bad, I'd agree on that. zonohedron posted:Remember that "stop suffering" might entail "stop free will" - if I hit you in the face, it's going to hurt your face, unless God prevents me from hitting you; or God could prevent my hand making contact with your face from causing pain, but then that interferes with causes having their normal effect. Why does God not therefore change our evolution as a species to provide a greater sense of connection to other human beings and less of an emphasis on competition and ensuring the best for oneself? Murder, Rape, Torture, Cruelty and treating other people or yourself as objects. To me that is evil. Bad things are when we break our word, when we act selfishly. Those other things are merely "things that happen". They may be terrible or worse, and the "can't get pregnant despite attempting" would be terrible, but not in a moral way. Unless you want to go full Misotheist. The Phlegmatist posted:You're on to something here. Well there is no-one judging them now. Again from a personal perspective, they all should be helped, but it is very hard for me (personally) to want to help the latter person. It's like when American troops found some of the camps and gave the inmates rifles and placed the guards in amongst them. That is not morally right, but part of me can't help thinking "Good." Personally, no I wouldn't judge any of them morally good, and in the last case I'd judge as monstrous. But the problem is it's very hard to judge such people outside of being either better armed or better prepared than they are. Caufman posted:-The Man Who Was Thursday- I'll try and have a read when I have time. I'm still working through "mans search for meaning" at the moment. Why be good when evil wins is a tragically sentiment, even if accurate. I don't really watch tv shows much, but I'll give it a go. Good. I hope it is anyway. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 10:20
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CountFosco posted:Being morally good is happiness.
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Dec 13, 2016 10:22
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CountFosco posted:I personally read this as a teaching on fornication. That fornication is essentially a lie. Sexual acts come with emotional love, abiding love, i.e. marriage. To pretend that it's mere physical pleasure and nothing more is to deny the transformative power of the mystery of sexual communion. Unless you want to define any long term loving relationship as a marriage, which it seems like your statement could be read as. If so, I'm fine with that. Edit: I think fornication is fine, but I read a lot of medieval/early modern stuff. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 10:24
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HEY GAL posted:Edit: I think fornication is fine, but I read a lot of medieval/early modern stuff. Same, its harder to get mad about sex when the pope is having children left and right.
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Dec 13, 2016 10:30
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i have depression and anxiety, i ain't gettin to sleep tonight so hit me up with whatever you wanna hear about as long as it isn't something i find incredibly boring like liturgy i'm sorry we get it you all like it high as gently caress, you know some people have like war in their country right
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Dec 13, 2016 11:15
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Mo Tzu posted:i have depression and anxiety, i ain't gettin to sleep tonight so hit me up with whatever you wanna hear about as long as it isn't something i find incredibly boring like liturgy I've got to go do some christmas shopping as I have a day off today, but will speak soon if you want? Keep safe out there.
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Dec 13, 2016 11:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:The skinhead that curbstomps an Indian immigrant Can you not do that? Skinhead is a subculture founded specifically on and by interracial friendship, and even though 80s media has gotten it equated with neo-nazism, it's still incredibly wrong to use the term in this way. CountFosco posted:I personally read this as a teaching on fornication. That fornication is essentially a lie. Sexual acts come with emotional love, abiding love, i.e. marriage. To pretend that it's mere physical pleasure and nothing more is to deny the transformative power of the mystery of sexual communion. You'll have to elaborate. Sex clearly doesn't let to abiding love in the shape of marriage, or we'd have a LOT more marriages( hell, it'd exceed 100% rather quickly!). I'm non-monogamous, and it is exactly because of the magical properties of love, sexual or otherwise, that I refuse to limit myself in the endeavour.
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Dec 13, 2016 11:39
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Josef bugman posted:So, from a purely English and modern perspective, which is a worse thing "sin" or "evil", which word has a worse connotation? a good example of sin is how i honestly have a hard time believing you're so dense that you think it's appropriate to ask this question edit: to be clear, the sin here is on my part, the sin of suspicion and mistrust. also the sin of shitposting Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 13:48
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Josef bugman posted:So every time you post on here it's an act of evil. I joke, but it's serious, would you say that posting on SA is a morally good act? If it isn't then it's evil. The act of posting in and of itself is nothing. It is the intent behind the act that makes it sinful or not. Discussing theology with you is good. Giving advice and encouragement to others is good. Having honest and frank discussions on other subjects is good. Trolling is sinful. Name-calling is sinful. Being dishonest is sinful. A pastor of mine once defined sin as "anything that damages relationships - to yourself, to others, or to God." Sin is inherently destructive and divisive, which is what makes it evil.
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Dec 13, 2016 15:15
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Ask/Tell > Christianity Thread II: Trolling is a Sin
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Dec 13, 2016 15:45
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Lutha Mahtin posted:is this the christianity thread version of "google ron paul" Objection 1. It would seem that you should not kill you're parents, as it is written "honor your father and mother"...
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Dec 13, 2016 15:46
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Josef bugman posted:I've got to go do some christmas shopping as I have a day off today, but will speak soon if you want? my thoughts are with you, Mo Tzu HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 15:59
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Tias posted:Can you not do that? Skinhead is a subculture founded specifically on and by interracial friendship, and even though 80s media has gotten it equated with neo-nazism, it's still incredibly wrong to use the term in this way. You're right, should've specified a WPWW neo-nazi skin. Lutha Mahtin posted:is this the christianity thread version of "google ron paul" GOOGLE SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS AND THE FOUR CARDINAL VIRTUES AND THE THREE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES AND THE NINE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE TWELVE FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT CATECHIZE YOURSELF KILL YOU'RE PARENTS THOMAS AQUINAS 2020
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Dec 13, 2016 16:13
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I'd vote for zombie Thomas Aquinas, no lie.
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Dec 13, 2016 16:17
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This thread is a sin.
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Dec 13, 2016 16:22
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The Phlegmatist posted:GOOGLE SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS AND THE FOUR CARDINAL VIRTUES AND THE THREE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES AND THE NINE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE TWELVE FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT CATECHIZE YOURSELF KILL YOU'RE PARENTS THOMAS AQUINAS 2020 aquinas is cool and good, natural law has some interesting things in it as well, but modern natural law theologians are, for the most part, intellectual charlatans in bed with the Protestant right wing. one of the notable exceptions is Germain Grisez, who's intellectually honest and rigorous even though i disagree profoundly with most of his conclusions and find many of them abhorrent. basically just avoid the neo-scholastics in general and hit up the primary sources instead, which in any case are much weirder and more interesting than anything the 20th and 21st centuries have to say about them
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Dec 13, 2016 16:31
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:This thread is a sin. Shitpost boldly
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Dec 13, 2016 16:40
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Lutha Mahtin posted:a good example of sin is how i honestly have a hard time believing you're so dense that you think it's appropriate to ask this question I'm sorry. I just always assumed that sin covers, if you will pardon the obvious rejoinder, "A multitude of sins". Whereas evil always seemed to me, based on my rather clumsy read of it, as an intentional act. I'll bear this in mind for the future. Deteriorata posted:The act of posting in and of itself is nothing. It is the intent behind the act that makes it sinful or not. I'd like it if the ten commandments had an additional: "THOU SHALT NOT SHITPOST". Youtube areas would be a smoldering wasteland, but it might help matters. I suppose that makes sense. Something I am not too sure about but I do find interesting. Again sorry if I come across as stupid. I am trying. Bel_Canto posted:aquinas is cool and good, natural law has some interesting things in it as well, but modern natural law theologians are, for the most part, intellectual charlatans in bed with the Protestant right wing. one of the notable exceptions is Germain Grisez, who's intellectually honest and rigorous even though i disagree profoundly with most of his conclusions and find many of them abhorrent. basically just avoid the neo-scholastics in general and hit up the primary sources instead, which in any case are much weirder and more interesting than anything the 20th and 21st centuries have to say about them Is that because they are the villains in Deus Ex?
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Dec 13, 2016 16:50
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Evil sounds better than sin Mercyful Fate were evil, Poison is sinful
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Dec 13, 2016 16:59
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Smoking Crow posted:Evil sounds better than sin Post of the year OOL 2016.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:04
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