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Noam Chomsky posted:What do you mean by scary in this context? I mean he a shirtless dude in a super-black cape that runs around with a ridiculous axe sword... he doesn't seem like the kind of guy you'd want to run into…
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Sep 30, 2016 06:21
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Number Ten Cocks posted:I vaguely recollect that the reason for that condition is that they tried and failed the new sun quest. Safety Biscuits posted:
Terminus Est broke.  Safety Biscuits posted:
Can you elaborate on Dorcas as Jocasta? Obviously there is the incestuous relationship, but I don't see any other obvious connections. She's got youth and beauty that a woman her age shouldn't have, like Jocasta, but otherwise I'm not seeing it. Chichevache fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 06:54
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Chichevache posted:Terminus Est broke.  But what does it mean for your theory that Terminus Est is female!?quote:Can you elaborate on Dorcas as Jocasta? Obviously there is the incestuous relationship, but I don't see any other obvious connections. She's got youth and beauty that a woman her age shouldn't have, like Jocasta, but otherwise I'm not seeing it. Sure, but this was just an idle thought. I was only thinking of the incest when I described her as Jocasta; really it's more that Severian is Oedipal. Oedipus' lameness ties into Severian's, they were both abandoned while very young, both had prophecies concerning them (I think Severian's are the self-fulfilling variety too?), both bring destruction to their communities... It's pretty weak stuff, but maybe someone else can think of something 
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Sep 30, 2016 13:28
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Noam Chomsky posted:What do you mean by scary in this context? Consider Silk, a much more reluctant and self-aware sort of messiah who nonetheless seizes power when he deems it necessary. Silk is a pretty good guy - but he associates with thieves, murderers and rebels; and he brings the inevitable change with all the horrors of revolution and war done in his name. Still being a fundamentally good person, he questions his morality all the way - and ends up where he ends up in Short Sun because of it. tl;dr: Assholes make for the best messiahs but it's better to be far, far away from them. e: Mind you, this is all rather likely to be bullshit projected by yours truly. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 16:14
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anilEhilated posted:Mind you, this is just my interpretation - but it's one thing Wolfe's messianistic protagonists (both/all three) in the Solar books have in common. It's sort of mitigated by the point of view and it's obviously subject to the whole unreliable narrator thing, but they're all presented as those big, world-changing figures that inspire awe in people around them. Severian is a bastard and he's a showy bastard - his job, his outfit, a lot of his personality is driven by a need to impress, to impose. Judging by the reactions of his companions from Claw on, it mostly works - and when it doesn't, well, we know what his relationship to the one woman who openly defies (and tries to kill) him look like. Deep down underneath, Severian is ruthless, egotistic and dangerous. Nah, this all makes sense to me. I need to re-read New Sun. I read it when I was younger and more egoistic, and probably identified with Severian more than I should have. I probably need to re-read it to see if I'm mentally defective, more than anything else.
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Sep 30, 2016 16:39
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Oh God now I have to read Urth and Short&Long Sun why do book stores never carry these books 
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Sep 30, 2016 17:59
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Safety Biscuits posted:
About as much as arguing whether or not Severian is now Trans since Thecla lives inside him.  Are you referring to the pommel as female, or did Severian feminize his sword? I don't remember. quote:
I'll have to revisit and decide what I see. I was already pretty familiar with Greek myth before my first read of BotNS (I've probably done 10 or so now. I first read it 15 years ago), but Dorcas as Jocasta didn't strike me as Oedipal besides the actual, possible incest(though now I'm also wondering about the onomastics behind Jolenta and Jocasta. Andre-Drussi does a lot of work with names that I find questionable at times, but this one might be stretching it a bit. On the other hand, Jolenta may also be a female relative of Severian's. In Solar Labyrinth she's identified as a member of his family, iirc.) Anyway, I'd been familiar with the Greek myths previously, but I hadn't actually read Sophocles or Aeschylus until three years ago, which is also when I started learning Roman history (The History of Rome podcast completely changed the tone of the books for me. I knew he used Latin trappings, but understanding that the House Absolute is based on Flavian's Palace IN REAL LIFE was pretty groundbreaking for me.) and Arthuriana like Le Morte d'Arthur and Nabokov, which are all heavily represented in the Solar Cycle. I'm visiting my parents right now and I have a ton of free time, so I'm going to dig all these up and start doing my re-read finally. New Sun and Long Sun I've read almost religiously, but this will also only be the second time that I have read Short Sun, which definitely went over my head a decade ago. Hopefully I'll have something interesting to post in this thread and I won't just crawl up my own rear end, writing a terrible screed about how the combination of Nabokov and Mallory influence is really a meta-commentary on the death of the author. 
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Sep 30, 2016 20:29
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anilEhilated posted:Consider Silk, a much more reluctant and self-aware sort of messiah who nonetheless seizes power when he deems it necessary. Silk is a pretty good guy - but he associates with thieves, murderers and rebels; and he brings the inevitable change with all the horrors of revolution and war done in his name. Like Jesus, then? Sure, Jesus was not a military Messiah like Cyrus or Judas Maccabeus, but He still came to bring a sword to the world. Chichevache posted:About as much as arguing whether or not Severian is now Trans since Thecla lives inside him. OK, I was kind of shitposting about Terminus Est before, but now I'm for real: I referred to her as female because Severian always refers to her as feminine. So does Palaemon before he gives her to him. More importantly I don't think her destruction is anything do do with bringing the New Sun or a castration. In that case it's the angels who castrate, not Baldanders; nor is it a consequence of failure. I see it more as part of his separation from the guild. Possibly there's something else going on, but I don't think it's related to the old Autarch's "lameness". Also Severian and all the autarchs are trans, yes. It's like I Will Fear No Evil but good. The Dorcas-as-Jocasta thing is exclusively about the incest, I didn't mean anything more. quote:Anyway, I'd been familiar with the Greek myths previously, but I hadn't actually read Sophocles or Aeschylus until three years ago, which is also when I started learning Roman history (The History of Rome podcast completely changed the tone of the books for me. I knew he used Latin trappings, but understanding that the House Absolute is based on Flavian's Palace IN REAL LIFE was pretty groundbreaking for me.) and Arthuriana like Le Morte d'Arthur and Nabokov, which are all heavily represented in the Solar Cycle. Cool stuff. I've only read Malory and Nabokov since the last time I read New Sun so I'll try to keep an eye out for them too.
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Oct 1, 2016 05:18
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Noam Chomsky posted:What do you mean by scary in this context? He is a torturer who dresses in black, wears a skull mask and carries a gigantic executioners sword.
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Oct 1, 2016 05:33
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Slaughterhouse-Ive posted:Yeah I mean I've read stuff where the nominal protagonist is a bastard but I got a little blindsided here since someone earlier in this thread mentioned Baudolino and I was expecting a science fantasy version of that. Yeah I brought up Baudolino only as a suggestion for someone wanting to start reading Eco, it doesn't have much in common with BOTNS other than having an unreliable narrator. I love that book dearly though, it's probably my favorite Eco book if only because the Prester John myth is so fascinating. A sci-fi version would be really neat if there was some comparable legend to base it off of. Chichevache posted:That is true! Every other autarch is a castrato. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say Severian is as well and has too much pride to admit it. We're supposed to believe that this is only because of the reasons brought up earlier failing the Yesod judgment test but I like to think it could be another lie from Severian. Maybe the eunuch status comes from absorbing all the previous Autarchs which puts the new Autarch in a non-gender specific state, and Severian just doesn't want to admit that it happened to him too? Ultimately there's no way to know for sure, like a lot of other stuff in the story! Something amusing on Severian's parentage (Fifth Head of Cerberus spoilers contained within) - his dad's name, Ouen, corresponds to Owain (Welsh) and Owen (English) - and also the Greek name Eugenes, or Eugene, commonly shortened as Gene. Normally I would think this is a stretch, but it's Wolfe and he already pulled the same trick in FHOC, so perhaps he's telling us that Severian's dad is...Gene Wolfe!
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Oct 1, 2016 07:11
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Sorry for the thread bump because as far as I know Gene Wolfe is still alive but thanks for dealing with my ramblings and thanks for the encouragement to keep reading. Once I got to the quasi-retelling of Theseus and the part where Severian's narration briefly became Thecla's I got totally back on board. I'm almost done with Claw and super stoked for Sword.
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Oct 8, 2016 02:00
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First up, a guy in the general sf thread has posted scans of the first part of the old Shadow of the Torturer comic, so hop over and check them out:my bony fealty posted:Finally got around to scanning the first issue of the Gene Wolfe's The Shadow of the Torturer comic. After re-reading The Book of the New Sun and Urth... Book is incredible; it felt like I was discovering huge fields of meaning I had not seen before, and I wanted to re-read it while I was reading it. The religious writing is wonderful, especially the scene where Severian returns the Claw. I think Urth is lesser, partly because its structure is not as focused. Large amounts of the book are self-absorbed, discussing how to read it. A random grab bag of points the thread was discussing earlier: -I don't understand the time travel stuff, which always makes my eyes glaze over. Sadly I've never read Spinoza. -Nabokov stuff: I spotted the phrase "pale fire", but nothing more specific. Although obviously they're interested in similar ideas. The most obvious Malory influence was the evil giants, and Severian losing Terminus Est in the Lake of Birds when he meets Dorcas. But Severian always seems like a different hero; you can see multitudes in him. -Sex talk (don't google "severian sex" btw): I think he has sex with everyone he says he does. I think there is only one particular point where he seemed to be boasting or portraying himself in a flattering light by claiming to be a sex god: Agia makes him grope her on page 212. (Fantasy Masterworks edition, which is really poorly edited.) On the other hand, there's the House Azure women; he claims not to have gone back there after the first time, but later implies that he did (chapter 13, page 165). I don't think he had sex with little Severian; there's some evidence, but it would totally destroy his character arc, I think. The same goes for Daria (the woman he fights to join the irregular cavalry); the scene implies that he has sex with her, but their later interactions don't, or perhaps only that he wasn't as violent as she feared he would be. -Severian seems to be fairly honest with the reader. I don't think he has perfect memory though so much as a wonderful imagination, possibly to do with his status as the Conciliator. His unreliability takes other forms. -Most of the political writing seems to be code for religious talk. -Terminus Est being shattered is not a castration scene, it's the ruin of his torturer-self. I think his escape via the Vincula is the baptism/crossing the Red Sea scene before his decision to live as a proper man, not a torturer. -The guild of torturers stuff is there to make them more like soldiers. -The beginning of the novel is crazily Gothic and recalls the opening of Bleak House. -Vodalus is a fascist who wants to Make the Commonwealth Great Again. -There's an old man who seems to know more than he should at the end of chapter two, where Severian is resurrected. Is he some kind of echo of Severian? -Valeria is from Master Ash's future. -Saint Ultan is the patron of children. Must be a busy guy. -Severian borrows four books for Thecla but only describes three of them in detail. The last is a small green book. -He does not gently caress about betraying the guild. He does it the afternoon of the days after Saint Katherine's Day. Maybe he should have told Gurloes he was hung over. -Before Agilus' execution, he disdains the people who want trophies, but takes one's handkerchief to the execution. -That only goes as far as the end of Shadow because I got bored and imagine you are too, gentle reader. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 12:55
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Thanks for posting that link to the comics.Safety Biscuits posted:
Someone earlier posted a link to the Duchy of Cumberbatch blog that discussed the books in great detail. Thanks to them I've corrected the disservice I've done myself and finally begun reading T.H. White's The Once and Future King, which Wolfe seems to draw heavily on. I'd seen some of his Arthurian influences previously, but I'd assumed they were Mallory and not more recent. With regards to some of the time travel, White's portrayal of Merlin is as someone who travels through time backwards, like the Cacogens do. He's also a mentor/guide to Arthur the way the Cacogens are to Severian. I'm not too far into the book yet, but it is a fantastic read that has greatly expanded my vocabulary at this point. If you're very into Wolfe, or fantasy in general, you'd do well to check this novel out. After I finish The Once and Future King and Pale Fire I'm going to continue my re-read of Book of the New Sun and Fifth Head of Cerberus. Hopefully I will have insights worth posting.
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Dec 11, 2016 17:32
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I absolutely loved the Shadow of the Torturer series, but they did leave me pretty confused and I usually had to stop every 4 chapters or so to look up some stuff. I just finished Soldier of the Mist and it's quickly become my favorite Wolfe book because while I'm not incredibly well versed in Greek history I do know who Hercules is and what satyrs and nymphs are, so it's a (relatively) easy read. I'm really excited to finish the rest of the series. For those of you who have, how does it hold up ?
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Dec 13, 2016 00:32
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Soldier of Arete is great, Soldier of Sidon sucks (but my dislike of late Wolfe is not universal).
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Dec 13, 2016 04:28
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Safety Biscuits posted:First up, a guy in the general sf thread has posted scans of the first part of the old Shadow of the Torturer comic, so hop over and check them out: Going to scan the second and third (final) issues of the comic when I get a chance! And I'll mention again, the founder of Innovation Comics said it's fine to scan and share so long as it's all non-commercial use. I agree that Urth is generally a bit weaker but I did enjoy it a lot more on my second read of the series. A lot of it went way over my head the first time and there's a lot of unclear stuff that happens on the ship and planet that was really cool when I (think) I figured out what was going on. Chichevache posted:Someone earlier posted a link to the Duchy of Cumberbatch blog that discussed the books in great detail. Thanks to them I've corrected the disservice I've done myself and finally begun reading T.H. White's The Once and Future King, which Wolfe seems to draw heavily on. I'd seen some of his Arthurian influences previously, but I'd assumed they were Mallory and not more recent. With regards to some of the time travel, White's portrayal of Merlin is as someone who travels through time backwards, like the Cacogens do. He's also a mentor/guide to Arthur the way the Cacogens are to Severian. I'm not too far into the book yet, but it is a fantastic read that has greatly expanded my vocabulary at this point. If you're very into Wolfe, or fantasy in general, you'd do well to check this novel out. Have you read Castleview? It's a modern-day King Arthur story done in a very Gene Wolfe way. I'm not sure if I liked it, really didn't, or just did not get it at all. Feels thick with allusions and imagery that I do not have the background to understand. I'm going to follow your lead and read TH White, then, and maybe Castleview again after to see if it makes any more sense...
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Dec 13, 2016 21:49
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I read all of Wizard Knight and kind of got into it. I tried to read Soldier of the Mist and I just could not focus on it. Every time I tried to sit down and read it I felt sleepy. To me it had some of the worst "Gene Wolfe" stuff going on, meaning just completely random stuff happened out of nowhere. I think I stopped reading when he randomly decided to "wrestle" someone in the middle of an inn or something. The fact that he forgot everything every day made Latro feel like he had no real characterization to me.
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Dec 13, 2016 21:59
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I absolutely loved the Shadow of the Torturer series, but they did leave me pretty confused and I usually had to stop every 4 chapters or so to look up some stuff. I enjoyed Sidon, but the first two are definitely stronger. I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with me having a stronger footing in Greek myth and history than Egyptian. I still loved his depictions of Egyptian life. my bony fealty posted:
I have Castleview, but I haven't read it yet. I'll try that after 5th Head but before BotNS. I'm still building up more of a base in Arthurian literature so I can understand these allusions better. I know he's drawing heavily on them, but I don't understand them myself. Your feelings on Castleview match mine for Free Live Free. That book was definitely a struggle for me and I just couldn't figure out what I was sure I was missing in it.
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Dec 14, 2016 01:00
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Speaking of late Wolfe, how is The Land Across? I generally don't have problem with his less-connected stories (by which I mean I liked both Home Fires and The Borrowed Man) but it's got a very, very slow start. I don't know if it's me getting bored or the book projecting oppressive atmosphere but I have very little desire to read on... Does it get better?
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Dec 15, 2016 18:44
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's also important to remember that it's entirely plausible that Severian never had sexual relations with any of these women. I doubt he made up the story about raping Jolenta and then also made a bunch of half rear end excuses claiming she totally wanted it. Though I suppose someone who was impotent and trying to hide it might get mixed up in his own lies. Chichevache posted:That is true! Every other autarch is a castrato. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say Severian is as well and has too much pride to admit it. Like the Fisher King, Severian's emasculation is such that he comes to identify as (partially) a woman. And like the Fisher (Sinner) King, his kingdom can only be healed when he atones for his sins.
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Dec 19, 2016 10:19
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Wasn't Severian also wounded in the thigh/leg in in Citadel of the Autarch?
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Dec 19, 2016 10:47
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Leg injuries are fairly common in Wolfe's works generally iirc. This is likely partly Fisher King symbolism and partly autobiographical, since he suffered some kind of nasty injury at some point in his life, too, if memory serves.
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Dec 19, 2016 11:47
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BuckarooBanzai posted:Wasn't Severian also wounded in the thigh/leg in in Citadel of the Autarch? Correct, it was broken in the flier crash, in chapter 25 which also features Severian describing his memory as "more vividly than I would have thought possible", a nice bit of evidence for my assertion that he does not have perfect memory. DeimosRising posted:Like the Fisher King, Severian's emasculation is such that he comes to identify as (partially) a woman. And like the Fisher (Sinner) King, his kingdom can only be healed when he atones for his sins. Severian's not emasculated (I think you're thinking of Terminus Est being broken here) and he identifies partly as a woman because his memories and personality are, in part, literally a woman's. I don't think that second parallel holds up, either, especially since I think it's normally not the Fisher King who does the healing and atonement - IIRC in Malory it's Sir Galahad atoning for Sir Balyn's (? Balan's) crimes.
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Dec 19, 2016 13:34
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Safety Biscuits posted:Correct, it was broken in the flier crash, in chapter 25 which also features Severian describing his memory as "more vividly than I would have thought possible", a nice bit of evidence for my assertion that he does not have perfect memory. You're being a bit literal. He becomes less masculine (is emasculated) when he literally develops a second personality that identifies as a woman. His dick remains physically intact. The Sinner King is healed by the actions of a Holy Fool, whether Percival or whomever, and in this case Severian is kind of both characters, and the prior Autarch is both the elder wounded king (literally castrated) and the whole line of Grail Knights. Other images from various forms of the legend show up at other times in the books, like the flesh or head of a relative/relation served on a platter, the Healing Question, the recurrence of failed trials, and the beautiful castle that becomes a ruin after the Holy Fool sleeps in it. The BotNS is definitely not a point for point retelling of any one version of the Fisher King legend, and elements of the story and characters are woven into Severian, the Autarch, and Vodalus, at least. It's probably best to read these echoes of the story in the context of Severian's revelation about the mythic significance of Baldanders and Dr. Talos.
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Dec 23, 2016 20:44
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Safety Biscuits posted:-Severian borrows four books for Thecla but only describes three of them in detail. The last is a small green book. I read somewhere once that the fourth book is the same book we have read: the book of the new sun. It's probably the copy he hurled into space. I don't remember any of the stuff backing that theory up. anilEhilated posted:Speaking of late Wolfe, how is The Land Across? I generally don't have problem with his less-connected stories (by which I mean I liked both Home Fires and The Borrowed Man) but it's got a very, very slow start. I don't know if it's me getting bored or the book projecting oppressive atmosphere but I have very little desire to read on... Does it get better? I didn't totally understand it: It seems at some point that the guy visiting the country might actually be from there, or a government agent from there, already. There's also count dracula in it. The end really didn't make a lot of sense. I did enjoy it more as it went on, everything seemed to come together in the end.
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Jan 2, 2017 17:50
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I got a friend of mine to the audiobooks to Book of the New Sun, and we were talking about the series (he's just started Sword of the Lictor and thinks Thrax is really neat) and I got to talking about one of my favourite parts from Citadel of the Autarch and I thought I would post it here because it is probably my absolute favourite part in that entire magnificent novel, at least from my initial first reading of it.quote:You know newspeak from 1984, where the language of those under a repressive regime have their vocabularies limited so that they cannot manage to have thoughts that are too insubordinate or even complex? It's valid you know, Umberto Ego made special note of it in his writings of spotting naiscant fascism.
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Jan 12, 2017 07:15
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I don't know if this is common knowledge but I was doing some research into Pringles potato chips and ended up reading their wiki article. Apparently while he was a mechanical engineer Gene Wolfe invented the machine that cooks Pringles.
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Jan 12, 2017 07:43
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ManlyGrunting posted:I got a friend of mine to the audiobooks to Book of the New Sun, and we were talking about the series (he's just started Sword of the Lictor and thinks Thrax is really neat) and I got to talking about one of my favourite parts from Citadel of the Autarch and I thought I would post it here because it is probably my absolute favourite part in that entire magnificent novel, at least from my initial first reading of it. I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with what's said. I agree that language can condition thought, but maybe not to the degree your friend claims (though it's difficult to know the exact scope of his claim). People will reach for words that are lacking in the language and invent them, or press-gang words in the dialect into uses that until then had been unnatural. There may be insidious limitations that make certain kinds of thought less likely for the common man, but not precluded for all thinkers, or even necessarily strongly unlikely. Reality and thought are more than mere language constructs. I agree with him that the story in the BotNS is a good depiction of that argument in action, though.
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Jan 12, 2017 09:34
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I don't know if this is common knowledge but I was doing some research into Pringles potato chips and ended up reading their wiki article. Apparently while he was a mechanical engineer Gene Wolfe invented the machine that cooks Pringles. I knew that and I never stop getting tired of letting people know at the end my introductions. I also like to point them to the interview were he really looks like Dr Robotnik. Also I just got Book of the Long Sun, and I cannot wait! 
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Jan 13, 2017 06:46
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ManlyGrunting posted:I knew that and I never stop getting tired of letting people know at the end my introductions. I also like to point them to the interview were he really looks like Dr Robotnik. I've always thought he resembles a walrus. http://imgur.com/a/I6dVu Also while looking for this I found out he wasn't too bad looking when he was young. http://imgur.com/a/d45lX
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Jan 13, 2017 07:56
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DeimosRising posted:You're being a bit literal. He becomes less masculine (is emasculated) when he literally develops a second personality that identifies as a woman. His dick remains physically intact. Sorry for the late reply! I think this is wrong, though. Severian doesn't become less, he becomes more - both male and (to a lesser degree) female. Nor does he "develop a second personality that identifies as a woman"; he has a woman's personality placed in his brain. quote:The Sinner King is healed by the actions of a Holy Fool, whether Percival or whomever, and in this case Severian is kind of both characters, and the prior Autarch is both the elder wounded king (literally castrated) and the whole line of Grail Knights. Other images from various forms of the legend show up at other times in the books, like the flesh or head of a relative/relation served on a platter, the Healing Question, the recurrence of failed trials, and the beautiful castle that becomes a ruin after the Holy Fool sleeps in it. The BotNS is definitely not a point for point retelling of any one version of the Fisher King legend, and elements of the story and characters are woven into Severian, the Autarch, and Vodalus, at least. It's probably best to read these echoes of the story in the context of Severian's revelation about the mythic significance of Baldanders and Dr. Talos. Fair enough on me being over-literal, that's the conclusion I came to as well.
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Jan 13, 2017 15:46
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Neurosis posted:I've always thought he resembles a walrus. Yeah, he looks like George RR Martin's unhealthier uncle.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:41
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No time to take care of yourself when you're busy writing and inventing ovens.
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Jan 14, 2017 06:12
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I finished reading the Short Sun books for the first time today (thanks, local library, for having them so I didn't have to spend $75 on Amazon). Really great. So many questions. I had the central 'twist' about the narrator sort-of accidentally spoiled and that didn't matter at all. After I read Long Sun I was kind of mad because they're so different in style and narration than New Sun and any connection between the two felt tangential, but now I really appreciate that all 3 series are written so differently. The world of New Sun always seemed so grimdark to me but it's often rather whimsical and always just plain weird; after reading Short Sun their shared universe all really clicks for me (and the power of the narrator's voice to shape how the reader views what they're reading - that's one of Wolfe's biggest strengths for sure).
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Jan 23, 2017 06:46
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I just finished Nightside of the Long Sun myself and I'm kind of loving it. It's different as hell from New Sun but in a way that doesn't detract from either series. It's also fun to be along for the ride with Wolfe before full on "There is no Pepe Silvia, the whole company is a ghost town!" mode sets in. e:  "I've been doing some digging Mac, he's slept with every single one of his female relatives!" "What, even his grandma?" "ESPECIALLY HIS GRANDMA MAC, THAT'S JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG!" ManlyGrunting fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 18:18
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Here's something neat I found the other day. This is the demons speaking in Dr Talos' play (Claw ch. 24).quote:First Demon: The continents themselves are old as raddled women, long since stripped of beauty and fertility. The New Sun comes [...] and he will send them crashing into the sea like foundered ships. Compare it to Moses speaking to the Hebrews before they enter the promised land (NIV): Deuteronomy 8:7-14 posted:For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land—a land with brooks, streams, and deep springs gushing out into the valleys and hills; a land with wheat and barley, vines and fig trees, pomegranates, olive oil and honey; a land where bread will not be scarce and you will lack nothing; a land where the rocks are iron and you can dig copper out of the hills. Also note the fertility imagery. Well, it seems demons can cite Scripture to their own purpose. Severian remembers these lines in Urth chapter 48, reflecting that he had been taken in by the demons. Wolfe isn't just warning us that salvation will look very different when we get there, but not to be taken in by rhetoric, even his own, appropriately for this obsessively self-referential Book.
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Feb 1, 2017 11:53
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Juaguocio posted:Oreb's fantastic interjections. Good post! So I just finished the last Short Sun book, capping off the entire "Solar Cycle" which I started a few months ago. It was a great ride. It made me feel dumb because there a few time where I was sure there were things I was missing, which a skimming of this thread shows to be true. I was aware of this thread but avoided it for spoilers until now. I guess I'll spew some thoughts and then read the rest of the thread to see what else I missed. I'll spoiler a few things in case there are other like me who haven't read this great series yet. I guessed that Dorcas was Severian's mother/grandmother at some point during Claw. I don't know if it was expressly stated earlier, it may have been and I'm just dense. The first few chapters of Long Sun had me super confused in regards to setting. I started reading the Wikipedia article, saw the words generation ship and everything snapped into place. When Scylla explained that Pas was actually uploaded Typhon and the rest of the gods were his family and retainers, it made perfect sense based on what we learned about Typhon in BotNS/ UotNS. I thought Typhon was a great villain overall, and his short screen time enhanced the mystery. Starting In Green's Jungle I expected the story to be about 80%flashbacks on Green and the rest the Rajan's flight from Gaon . It was pretty much the reverse. The one chapter that summarized (super spoiler!!) the entire expedition on Green, Horn and Sinew fighting their way out of the city, back to the city, taking over the lander, their final falling out, and Horn dying and being transferred into Silk that had me put the book down and have to think about things for a while. I teared up at the end of Return to the Whorl "Silk nodded".
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Apr 23, 2017 05:51
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I'm reading The Dying Earth and besides the obvious setting that Wolfe drew from it, it's funny to see the parallels between Cugel and Severian. Wolfe's writing is much more complex and the character partially hidden behind his own narration but they're both characters you really aren't supposed to look at as heroes you should like. Cugel starts of his story by selling fraudulent baubles, breaks into a house to steal poo poo, rapes several women, and basically is just a lovely person, but it is funny how it's written that it's not so entirely in your face about how lovely he is. His terrible deeds aren't exactly played up for drama or something. It's a little like how you can miss a lot of what Severian is doing being really lovely if you're just casually reading through the books (though again not as subtle, it's definitely hard to miss that Cugel is a lovely person)
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Jun 10, 2017 13:27
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I'm reading Long Sun right now and I've noticed two things. First, it's the first book by Wolfe I've read that isn't first person. So that jumped out at me right away. Second, it's amazingly slow but really captivating. I'm struck by how far removed from New Sun it is. It really shows the range of talent he has as an author.
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Jun 11, 2017 02:21
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Levitate posted:I'm reading The Dying Earth and besides the obvious setting that Wolfe drew from it, it's funny to see the parallels between Cugel and Severian. Wolfe's writing is much more complex and the character partially hidden behind his own narration but they're both characters you really aren't supposed to look at as heroes you should like. Cugel starts of his story by selling fraudulent baubles, breaks into a house to steal poo poo, rapes several women, and basically is just a lovely person, but it is funny how it's written that it's not so entirely in your face about how lovely he is. His terrible deeds aren't exactly played up for drama or something. It's a little like how you can miss a lot of what Severian is doing being really lovely if you're just casually reading through the books (though again not as subtle, it's definitely hard to miss that Cugel is a lovely person) yeah. severian has more self-awareness than cugel, which is an amazingly poor reflection on cugel. it was kind of shocking that cugel actually developed a little by the end and realised some of his limitations and that being a complete turd wasn't always the optimal play! i mean, it's not overt, but it's there. funny contrast in moral arcs, though. severian has a moral awakening, even if he never becomes a great person. cugel just fails by being an awful person so much he eventually is forced into some mild self-contemplation. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 03:54
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