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SeanBeansShako posted:They are just tools really I dunno, if I had a wrench or screwdriver that I knew had been used to kill someone I'd feel a bit weird about it too.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:35
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Having a used captive bolt gun would creep me right the gently caress out. Would not put that one on my mantlepiece. e: on the other hand I have pieces of dead animal in my house on the reg so maybe I'm just an idiot.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:41
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Koramei posted:I dunno, if I had a wrench or screwdriver that I knew had been used to kill someone I'd feel a bit weird about it too. Yeah but you don't really use those kind of tools for killing. I mean you COULD use a gun or sword hilt to hammer something in....
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Dec 18, 2016 17:43
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david_a posted:What is that supposed to mean? You are trying really hard to create a moral quandary that does not exist. If your concern is really that a particular item might have contributed to someone's death or suffering then you should throw a good chunk of your possessions in the trash, stop traveling, stop eating most things, etc, etc. If your concern is specifically that guns are weapons and are ultimately intended to kill or wound people, then you should not own or use guns. What you're talking about here is owning a piece of history, which is also a completely amoral thing unless your reason for owning the thing is to celebrate the destructive ideologies that led to the conflict.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:47
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bewbies posted:You are trying really hard to create a moral quandary that does not exist. If your concern is really that a particular item might have contributed to someone's death or suffering then you should throw a good chunk of your possessions in the trash, stop traveling, stop eating most things, etc, etc. If your concern is specifically that guns are weapons and are ultimately intended to kill or wound people, then you should not own or use guns. What you're talking about here is owning a piece of history, which is also a completely amoral thing unless your reason for owning the thing is to celebrate the destructive ideologies that led to the conflict. There's a difference between "a 14 year old was paid a nickel to make my shoes along with a thousand others on the same day" and "this gun was used to kill someone." Like, contributing versus directly causing is a distinction with a difference that can be made.
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Dec 18, 2016 18:06
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I mean strictly unless you buy it directly from the manufacturer then it doesn't really matter how many people your gun was used to kill, owning it still isn't really a moral issue, you aren't supporting those actions by doing so. That you may have bought it from an arms supplier is the most objectionable part of it.
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Dec 18, 2016 18:09
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FAUXTON posted:There's a difference between "a 14 year old was paid a nickel to make my shoes along with a thousand others on the same day" and "this gun was used to kill someone." Like, contributing versus directly causing is a distinction with a difference that can be made. The shoes were made on behalf of the eventual customer, you. The gun happened for its own reasons, and you're irrelevant to its prior story.
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Dec 18, 2016 18:12
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SeanBeansShako posted:Yeah but you don't really use those kind of tools for killing. Needs must, when the Devil drives 
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Dec 18, 2016 18:13
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FAUXTON posted:There's a difference between "a 14 year old was paid a nickel to make my shoes along with a thousand others on the same day" and "this gun was used to kill someone." Like, contributing versus directly causing is a distinction with a difference that can be made. I do not see the difference excepting that you were a specific contributor to the environment that created the shoes but you were not for the gun. efb but still
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Dec 18, 2016 18:22
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I was the owner of one of these old noodle sieves that they made of Stahlhelme. There's a video of the stamping process somewhere.
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Dec 18, 2016 18:38
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JaucheCharly posted:I was the owner of one of these old noodle sieves that they made of Stahlhelme. There's a video of the stamping process somewhere. There's an Afrika Korps and Italian army joke in here somewhere.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:25
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If you think about it, any helmet with bullet entry and exit holes through it is a noodle sieve.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:37
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Come to think of it, do any of the modern armies have like military designation names for kitchen equipment like pots or are they finally able to control themselves in that regard?
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Dec 18, 2016 19:46
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Plan Z posted:Come to think of it, do any of the modern armies have like military designation names for kitchen equipment like pots or are they finally able to control themselves in that regard? What does your heart tell you?
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Dec 18, 2016 19:47
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If you go through a trashy antiquity shop you can find an absolutely staggering number of things made from shell casings. Those things are fuckin yuuuge.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:51
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Nenonen posted:If you think about it, any helmet with bullet entry and exit holes through it is a noodle sieve. And a a helmet of the same era can be a great mess tin in a pinch.
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Dec 18, 2016 20:03
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Flasks are for suckers.
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Dec 18, 2016 20:11
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Polyakov posted:What does your heart tell you? All mess hall functions contracted out?
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Dec 18, 2016 20:19
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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aphid_licker posted:If you go through a trashy antiquity shop you can find an absolutely staggering number of things made from shell casings. Those things are fuckin yuuuge. I would be extremely bothered to own one because of the possibility that shell casing was used to kill dozens of men! Ensign Expendable posted:Flasks are for suckers. You're supposed to drink the blood of your enemies from their skulls
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Dec 18, 2016 20:56
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E: nm
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Dec 18, 2016 21:01
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Plan Z posted:Come to think of it, do any of the modern armies have like military designation names for kitchen equipment like pots or are they finally able to control themselves in that regard? BV.
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Dec 18, 2016 21:15
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Plan Z posted:Come to think of it, do any of the modern armies have like military designation names for kitchen equipment like pots or are they finally able to control themselves in that regard? shack, jacking, for the purpose of
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Dec 18, 2016 21:36
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Light Tank M2 Queue: Combat Car T4, Char B, TK-3, Medium Tank Mk.II, Medium Tank Mk.III, KH-50 et al, PzIV, PzIII Ausf. A, PzIII Ausf. B through D Available for request:  T2E1 Light Tank M3A1 Combat Car M1  A1E1 Independent Infantry Tank Mk.I  LTP T-37 with ShKAS ZIK-20 T-12 and T-24 HTZ-16 Wartime modifications of the T-37 and T-38 SG-122 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda Tank destroyers on the T-30 and T-40 chassis 45 mm M-42 gun NEW  L-10 and L-30 Strv m/40 Strv m/42 Landsverk prototypes 1943-1951  Trials of the TKS and C2P in the USSR 37 mm anti-tank gun  SR tanks  Renault NC Renault D1 Renault R35 Renault D2 Renault R40 Char B1 bis  PzI Ausf. B PzI Ausf. C PzII Ausf. a though b PzII Ausf. c through C NEW Pak 97/38 Pz.Sfl.IVb  LT vz 35 NEW
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Dec 18, 2016 21:54
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Nenonen posted:You're supposed to drink the blood of your enemies from their skulls Maybe if you're an uncultured barbarian, but a cultured barbarian drinks wine from the skulls of his enemies.
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Dec 18, 2016 22:28
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sullat posted:Maybe if you're an uncultured barbarian, but a cultured barbarian drinks wine from the skulls of his enemies. Is that a cultured barbarian, or just an uncultured barbarian who doesn't have a steady flow of enemy blood?
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Dec 18, 2016 22:32
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sullat posted:Maybe if you're an uncultured barbarian, but a cultured barbarian drinks wine from the skulls of his enemies. And really cultured barbarians realize that blood is just a protein emulsion and can substitute in for eggs in a surprising number of applications 
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Dec 18, 2016 22:47
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sullat posted:Maybe if you're an uncultured barbarian, but a cultured barbarian drinks wine from the skulls of his enemies. Ah the Scythian 5000 A.D. vintage on a Persian vintage skull. 4 out of 5.
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Dec 18, 2016 22:52
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sullat posted:Maybe if you're an uncultured barbarian, but a cultured barbarian drinks wine from the skulls of his enemies. A cultured barbarian is just a barbarian that recently sacked somewhere cultured and took their wine.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:49
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all non-greeks are barbarians 
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Dec 19, 2016 00:05
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Thanks for light tank m2, EE
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Dec 19, 2016 00:18
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Hogge Wild posted:all non-greeks are barbarians I thought it was all non-Athenians
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Dec 19, 2016 00:22
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OwlFancier posted:A cultured barbarian is just a barbarian that recently sacked somewhere cultured and took their wine. That describes Krum in a nutshell, I think. Nothing but the best skulls for him, of course, he drank from the skull of a Roman emperor.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:35
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HookedOnChthonics posted:And really cultured barbarians realize that blood is just a protein emulsion and can substitute in for eggs in a surprising number of applications I miss my usual grad student breakfast of cheese on toast and black pudding.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:27
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At what point do you cross the line from a simple act of civil disobedience to actively organizing tactics to thwart the police and fight back? I know those tactics are what can make the action more effective, but how do you reconcile things with more moderate people who only signed up to do a sit-in and maybe wave some signs when other members are talking about using bike chains to disable lights? Seems like that'd scare people off. And how do you make "leaderless committees" work without devolving into a mess of people talking against eachother?
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Dec 19, 2016 01:30
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I caught up on the last few pages and would really like to see a picture of the bag in question.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:33
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A book I'm reading made a very offhand comment about leftover torpedoes being responsible for sinking at least one merchant vessel in the wake of WWII. As in, the torpedo was just floating around weeks or months after it was fired, and some poor ship bumped into it and detonated it. Book has no citation for this though, does anyone know of any such incident? Rogue mines I could see, but my totally uninformed instinct tells me a torpedo would probably sink once it exhausted its propulsion system.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:50
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SlothfulCobra posted:At what point do you cross the line from a simple act of civil disobedience to actively organizing tactics to thwart the police and fight back? I know those tactics are what can make the action more effective, but how do you reconcile things with more moderate people who only signed up to do a sit-in and maybe wave some signs when other members are talking about using bike chains to disable lights? Seems like that'd scare people off. That line usually gets crossed when the police start hurting people.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:39
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Leaderless committees work when you're committed to an end goal and/violence. Otherwise, Occupy Wallstreet happens.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:52
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Nenonen posted:Shouldn't you tell him about the episode you had after purchasing that bag when you started singing nothing more than REMOVE KABOB until an exorcist paid a visit Corsair Pool Boy fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 10:03
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SlothfulCobra posted:At what point do you cross the line from a simple act of civil disobedience to actively organizing tactics to thwart the police and fight back? The moment it becomes clear the politicians don't care about you. As I have mentioned in the post, I had participated in six years of peaceful happenings, negotiations and cooperation in good faith, protests and son on, and then they sell the house off to a cuckoo sect( we're talking WBC-level deranged here) and denounce us as antidemocratic rabble - and we had the legal right to the building! A lot who participated may already have hated the politicians, but I didn't, at least not before then. Regarding the police, we never really not considered them adversaries. When I was at one of my first protests, I saw six cops beat up a 14 year old girl with maglites in the back of their wagon for talking back to them. Denmark allegedly has one of the most moral police forces in the world, and that may well be true, but they're exceedingly violent towards anyone who looks at them wrong, and they cover up lying for each other so their actions cannot be prosecuted. Better yet, their appeal institution is made up of ex-cops and chummy lawyers, so less than 2% of charged officers see even a slap on the wrist. Splode posted:That line usually gets crossed when the police start hurting people. This. If we weren't opposed, we would complete our march, but of course at this point we were also daring them to do something, by squatting buildings or blocking traffic. It was a show of force, something the police had struck us with often enough for us to realize it could be turned back on them.. Although they had actually hurt a lot of people before activists started arming themselves, protestors picked fights only when they had to, to make a statement. The police did as instructed by the politicians, so we had to twart them, that's more or less it. Even so, we did not attempt to hurt them as much as drive them off, activists mostly stuck to throwing firebombs, chassé stones and fireworks. Their violence helped our cause, in turn. Undercover cops would do a lot of dumb poo poo like press guns in the face of kids, abduct protestors and beat the poo poo out of them, and so on. Combined with the fact that even the nice areas of Copenhagen stayed flooded in tear gas, a lot of inhabitants were more fed up with the cops than us. quote:I know those tactics are what can make the action more effective, but how do you reconcile things with more moderate people who only signed up to do a sit-in and maybe wave some signs when other members are talking about using bike chains to disable lights? Seems like that'd scare people off. We largely let people pick their own depth. The protest that would turn into riots were actually signalled as such way in advance( the 16th of December was plastered all over town with the words "Final Battle. Come prepared."), and the movement has long had a policy of not overtly criticizing allies for their method of protest. That's playing into the politicians game, you see, because they were always looking for a "good" group to negotiate with, so they could deploy excessive force against everyone else. The chains were thrown after the city had devolved into massive street fights, so it's probably better to talk about the run-up. Think of it like an army, you need people to do every thing. The media said there was a 'hard core' of evil, balaclava-clad activists waiting in a secret room with tire irons to come out and fight when there was trouble brewing, and then cute little girls and boys who made soup kitchens in the house for the poor, but the fact of the matter is, it was often the same people doing both. I never had the stomach for fighting cops, so I made sure people living in the area stayed fed instead. Of course, many people despised the violence, and some left the movement because of it, but even they had seen how peaceful protests were being supressed at that point. quote:And how do you make "leaderless committees" work without devolving into a mess of people talking against eachother? Good question, and one I'm still trying to solve, as the level of anticapitalist organization in Denmark is poor as hell. At the time, the basic organizational unit in the movement was the affinity group, a closed milieu of 2-50 friends who had made activism together before, and were united by personal relation and political goals. Many were freshly formed by people who knew one another and wanted to do some, but others, particularly those who joined us from the south, were extremely well-trained, close knit and resembled a RAF cell or something! For a leaderless milieu, of course we had a lot of informal hierarchies, and these probably saved the day. First off, the battle was for the House, so the people who were already daily activists had the authority to decide how the struggle should be fought. This included me, but I hated the atmosphere in the movement during that dark time in the end of 2006 and let others do the planning. Second, people with experience in the social movements, particularly with negotiation, logistics and fighting cops, were listened to, because we didn't really have other experience to draw on. Still, it was probably a real clusterfuck at times. The affinity groups could decide at any time that they didn't want to do something, and then they didn't - but they would often do something else, thus tying down police resources in another place. As I said, there was real commitment, from thousands and thousands of people, people felt it was better to do something, even if it meant going along with someone you didn't agree fully with, and so the horrible death by consensus democracy that usually stifles the movement was lessened. HookedOnChthonics posted:And really cultured barbarians realize that blood is just a protein emulsion and can substitute in for eggs in a surprising number of applications 
Tias fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 10:05
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