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Guy Goodbody posted:Lol at Yamagi being all professional while sitting in Shino's lap. Lemon-Lime posted:And blushing a lot. 
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Dec 18, 2016 23:04
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I didn't notice that Shino grabs Yamagi's shoulder too, oh gosh 
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Dec 18, 2016 23:25
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genericface talking poo poo about Tekkaden made me glad he got his rear end kicked in when they fought the mobile armor.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:28
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Adel posted:Ah ok, thank you for clearing that up for me; Daisuke's app is such garbo that scrubbing through an episode to rewatch a scene is impossible. And that's a good point about the current AV hardware being poo poo compare to what they had during the Calamity War, that would definition explain why the systems are getting overloaded. I think this sort of goes back to my point from last week that the AV we are seeing in use in the show is indeed sort of a lovely knock off of the version used in the calamity war. The Gundam is designed to do either one of two things: - Have pilots with a higher 'bandwidth' that are capable of accepting all the input that the suit can provide. - Absolutely stroke out their pilots anytime they get into combat with a Mobile Armor. Admittedly the latter is certainly possible, especially in total war sorts of situations, but we know from earlier episodes that a higher number of whiskers allows you to take data much more safely. I think it was Shino who plugged into the Barbatos and just got wrecked by it as an example. Seems reasonable that the original gundam pilots had four or more whiskers and this wasn't really a problem.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:33
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See, I'm leaning more toward the latter thing. It would make sense that Gjallarhorn banned the AV system if their founding members were all paralyzed and brain damaged by the time the Calamity War was over. And it'd make the Order of the Seven Stars more impactful if the pilots were literally sacrificing their bodies to slay dragons.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:49
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Plus since the MAs were already slaughtering people when the AV and the Gundams were created, I can see it being a desperate enough situation where they wouldn't care what condition the pilots were in afterwards.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:52
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I'm curious how many mobile armors were active at a time if they needed 72 of these guys to win.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:56
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Adel posted:I didn't notice that Shino grabs Yamagi's shoulder too, oh gosh This episode's kinda interesting in that we got a lot of great moments that advanced the relationships among the cast (Mika finally defied Orga! Shino and Yamagi! McGillis showing a little flash of regret! Atra pretty much saying "Kudelia. Threesomes. You in?", even if Kudelia might not have gotten the message!) or were just fun in and of themselves (Shino is a super robot pilot, Chad's axes uses the jet engine, Mika threw a loving arm at the Mobile Armor to wreck its aim), but the overall progress of the basic narrative is... pretty much nothing. Last episode: Mika jumps in to save Ride as Tekkadan's plan to beat the mobile armor is hosed up by Iok's idiocy. This episode: Mika jumps in to save Ride as Tekkadan's plan to beat the mobile armor is hosed up by Iok's idiocy. It's a good episode (so good!), but it's also kind of shuffling in place. Pacing is kind of a problem for this show. Of course, in an odd way, the bad pacing of the first season gives me more faith in this one. While it meandered about last time, when the time came it managed to wrap up what it needed to do nice and tight. Makes it a lot easier to believe that they'll manage this time even when I'm not sure where it's going.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:06
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Caros posted:I think this sort of goes back to my point from last week that the AV we are seeing in use in the show is indeed sort of a lovely knock off of the version used in the calamity war. It wasn't Shino, it was Dante(one of Chad's squadmate mooks) I think. It's also possible that it's the quality of the connection that is causing the stroke out problem rather than the number of whiskers. Maybe the lovely hacked together mobile worker cockpit AV connections are similar to using a badly degraded audio cable or something; you get the data from point A to point B but the connection is awful and there's a lot of painful background noise that fucks up the signal. I base this on Ein not seeming to have too much problem handling the full output of his three whiskers full time while Mika had to nearly kill himself to do it. Kanos fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 00:51
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NotALizardman posted:See, I'm leaning more toward the latter thing. It would make sense that Gjallarhorn banned the AV system if their founding members were all paralyzed and brain damaged by the time the Calamity War was over. This is what I'm thinking as well and I hope it goes in this direction, but the logistics make it kinda tricky; how would they have descendents if they were stuck in their Gundams as life support after the war, invite a nice lady/guy into the cockpit for five minutes? And I still think the founders were kids themselves at the time, so that thought gets real uncomfortable real fast. What makes the most sense to me is that, in this scenario, the Seven Star families aren't direct descendants. chiasaur11 posted:This episode's kinda interesting in that we got a lot of great moments that advanced the relationships among the cast (Mika finally defied Orga! Shino and Yamagi! McGillis showing a little flash of regret! Atra pretty much saying "Kudelia. Threesomes. You in?", even if Kudelia might not have gotten the message!) or were just fun in and of themselves (Shino is a super robot pilot, Chad's axes uses the jet engine, Mika threw a loving arm at the Mobile Armor to wreck its aim), but the overall progress of the basic narrative is... pretty much nothing. I completely agree, the good character moments were the saving grace of this episode. And I think Kudelia did get the message, I mean they quantified their feelings towards each other in the same way they talked about Mika, but will the show explicitly go there or will they chicken out and leave the ending as ambiguous but very wink wink nudge nudge. I'm gonna assume the latter because Gundam had burned me on non-traditional relationships before and now I'm bitter.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:58
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Adel posted:This is what I'm thinking as well and I hope it goes in this direction, but the logistics make it kinda tricky; how would they have descendents if they were stuck in their Gundams as life support after the war, invite a nice lady/guy into the cockpit for five minutes? And I still think the founders were kids themselves at the time, so that thought gets real uncomfortable real fast. Yeah, it would make sense if the original Families were "families" like Tekkadan. They only became hereditary things afterwards in order to keep power centralized
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Dec 19, 2016 01:04
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Adel posted:This is what I'm thinking as well and I hope it goes in this direction, but the logistics make it kinda tricky; how would they have descendents if they were stuck in their Gundams as life support after the war, invite a nice lady/guy into the cockpit for five minutes? And I still think the founders were kids themselves at the time, so that thought gets real uncomfortable real fast. It's entirely possible that the seventy-two Gundams burned through considerably more than seventy-two pilots (we've seen that the Alaya-Vijnana operation is relatively easy to rattle off en masse, seeing as that's exactly what all the mercenary companies using 'space rats' have done), and the Seven Stars were simply the only kids inexperienced (and lucky) enough to still be capable of having kids of their own by the end of the war.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:28
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yeah, it would make sense if the original Families were "families" like Tekkadan. They only became hereditary things afterwards in order to keep power centralized Yeah, I already mentioned it with the big MA reveal. Its more probable that the families were like Tekkadan and Turbines, with the pilots fighting for the family and gaining them prestige for all of them. Eventually it degenerated into an hereditary aristocracy. And we see just how loving stupid it is when the top of one of the families is a raging idiot that is the single reason for everything wrong in the last few episodes.
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Dec 19, 2016 02:48
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Looking forward to the adventures of Mikazuki: big love quadraplegic family man and his two lovely wives
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Dec 19, 2016 03:16
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Caros posted:I think this sort of goes back to my point from last week that the AV we are seeing in use in the show is indeed sort of a lovely knock off of the version used in the calamity war. The latter is really doubtful, considering the Gundams and the AV System were specifically created to fight the things. It's much more likely the system is trying to go full-power and hits a hardcoded system error due to AV connection/bandwidth issues.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:41
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yeah, it would make sense if the original Families were "families" like Tekkadan. They only became hereditary things afterwards in order to keep power centralized It makes more sense for them to have formed together as one "family" then to be pilots that all happened to be from separate "families," so I'm wondering if the creation of the Seven Stars was something that happened later; maybe the original "family" formed Gjallarhorn and then created 7 separate houses after the 7 pilots for [reason goes here]. I'm sure whatever purpose the Seven Stars were created for is not the same as what the current Seven Stars are doing. Darth Walrus posted:It's entirely possible that the seventy-two Gundams burned through considerably more than seventy-two pilots (we've seen that the Alaya-Vijnana operation is relatively easy to rattle off en masse, seeing as that's exactly what all the mercenary companies using 'space rats' have done), and the Seven Stars were simply the only kids inexperienced (and lucky) enough to still be capable of having kids of their own by the end of the war. Yeah, it would be really surprising if there was only one pilot to each gundam with the burnouts not surviving very long. That is an interesting idea about the original seven simply being the last ones standing and used as figureheads. Do you think that would have been the case with Agnika Kaieru or would he have been an exception? And on that note, why isn't the Kaieru family one of the Seven Stars? Was it because he couldn't have kids due to what the AV system did to him? That gives credence to the Seven Stars being actual blood descendants.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:45
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Could be something like Zeon, with the Kaieru family/faction losing power and later getting scrubbed and forgotten about by Gjallarhorn.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:52
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The latter is really doubtful, considering the Gundams and the AV System were specifically created to fight the things. It's much more likely the system is trying to go full-power and hits a hardcoded system error due to AV connection/bandwidth issues. Agreed. The error is pretty obviously a result of safeguards put in place later/the tech being used simply not being able to keep up with the tech that was used at the time. That said I could absolutely believe that the system is never safe at full power, and that any time it is used as such it leads to physiological damage for the pilots.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:06
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Caros posted:That said I could absolutely believe that the system is never safe at full power, and that any time it is used as such it leads to physiological damage for the pilots. It wouldn't hard-lock like that two steps away from a Mobile Armor. That tends to make a pilot dead, plus it destroys an expensive and complex Mobile Suit.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:08
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I imagine that, properly used, the AV system is good unless you push it to its limits. Mika however is using a lovely cobbled-together version of the AV system using lovely whiskers installed as cheap as possible by back-alley doctors. It's probably not a great combo.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:08
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ImpAtom posted:I imagine that, properly used, the AV system is good unless you push it to its limits. Mika however is using a lovely cobbled-together version of the AV system using lovely whiskers installed as cheap as possible by back-alley doctors. It's probably not a great combo. Given the AV system's meant to grow into their spine, maybe the kids used for the Gundams were custom-grown like Matrix babies with jacks built in.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:13
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It wouldn't hard-lock like that two steps away from a Mobile Armor. That tends to make a pilot dead. You're misunderstanding. The pilot damage and the system lock up are two different (but related) things. For the sake of argument, assume that full power always causes strokes. It's just an inherent fact of the system in this case. When Gjallerhorn was using the system this was understood and everyone accepted the risks because you were talking about possible extinction so a couple of cripples are acceptable. After the war the system sees somewhat widespread use but since extinction is no longer an issue they install limiters as a safeguard that shut the suit down if it tries to feed the pilot too much info. The gundams have internal coding that ramps them up to 11 the second they get near a Mobile Armor, and the interaction between this first generation coding and the second generation safeguards causes the Gundams to shut down. It is entirely possible (though far from certain) that the AV system could be crippling even when used under the best of circumstances. Then again I actually agree with ImpAtom that the system as it was actually used during the Calamity war was probably comparatively safe for the pilots, its just the third rate 'Jab the kid with this and see if he lives' Mars variety that is so lovely.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:14
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and that's why you never install lovely knock-off electronics in your mustang
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Dec 19, 2016 07:12
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Seems to me the original pilots were more like Einborg than random streetkids.
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Dec 19, 2016 08:11
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Remember that Mikazuki actually took in that level of data before. It seemed the implication was that the safety locks had been specifically added by Tekkadan and Teiwaz's engineers so that sort of thing could never happen again.
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Dec 19, 2016 11:04
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Darth Walrus posted:Remember that Mikazuki actually took in that level of data before. It seemed the implication was that the safety locks had been specifically added by Tekkadan and Teiwaz's engineers so that sort of thing could never happen again. No, they had to actively go looking through the Barbatos and Gusion's system logs to figure out what the gently caress just happened. The safety locks had to be part of the original Gundam OS's.
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Dec 19, 2016 11:45
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Neddy Seagoon posted:No, they had to actively go looking through the Barbatos and Gusion's system logs to figure out what the gently caress just happened. The safety locks had to be part of the original Gundam OS's. That could equally have been about what triggered the safety-locks. They definitely couldn't have known about the Gundams' anti-MA systems.
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Dec 19, 2016 11:54
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Darth Walrus posted:Remember that Mikazuki actually took in that level of data before. It seemed the implication was that the safety locks had been specifically added by Tekkadan and Teiwaz's engineers so that sort of thing could never happen again. Darth Walrus posted:That could equally have been about what triggered the safety-locks. They definitely couldn't have known about the Gundams' anti-MA systems. While the wording in the episode is ambiguous, they've never mentioned Tekkadan and Teiwaz adding safety locks of any sort after Edmonton and almost no one - including the chief mechanic who spends all of his time maintaining these things - had any idea what the hell would cause the suits to behave the way they did. Adding safety locks to prevent the Gundam going full throttle and stroking the pilot out suddenly would imply that they had some sort of idea that the Gundams could randomly adjust their power levels in extremis without the pilot's express consent(i.e. Mika saying "Barbatos give me everything you've got"). There has been no indication of the Gundam frames going full throttle without the pilots' consent before this very moment, so it would be kind of weird to add safety locks to prevent them from going full throttle that the pilot has full control over as shown by Mika deliberately telling the Barbatos to go whole hog in Edmonton and at the end of this episode.
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Dec 19, 2016 12:19
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Also why would they add a safety lock to the Gusion and then mention that the Flauros would have the same effect happen to it if it got close?
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Dec 19, 2016 12:36
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Also why would they add a safety lock to the Gusion and then mention that the Flauros would have the same effect happen to it if it got close? The Flauros was restored by the same team of Saisei engineers who remodelled the Barbatos and Gusion into the Lupus and Full City. Judging by Orga's behaviour this episode, him making it impossible for his top pilots to cripple themselves (deliberately or otherwise) as a matter of policy after Edmonton would be entirely in character.
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Dec 19, 2016 12:45
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Darth Walrus posted:The Flauros was restored by the same team of Saisei engineers who remodelled the Barbatos and Gusion into the Lupus and Full City. Judging by Orga's behaviour this episode, him making it impossible for his top pilots to cripple themselves (deliberately or otherwise) as a matter of policy after Edmonton would be entirely in character. Mika had to circumvent safety features to go full power at Edmonton in basically the same manner as he's doing now and that occurred before anyone realized how dangerous a Gundam's full power could be to a pilot. Mika then proceeds to do the exact same thing he did at Edmonton and circumvent safety features in order to have the Barbatos go full power here. If Tekkadan or Teiwaz had added additional safety features above and beyond what was already there in order to prevent the pilots from crippling/killing themselves, why would they let said safety features remain under full control of the pilots with no reference to outside approval? That would make them totally pointless at the intended goal of preventing the pilots from crippling/killing themselves.
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Dec 19, 2016 14:27
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genericnick posted:Seems to me the original pilots were more like Einborg than random streetkids. That would remove the age restriction on the original pilots but it seems way too extreme (for IBO  ) and costly (in terms of both cash and time) to make 72+ Einborgs than to just jack some whiskers into kids that no one will miss as needed. Since this is the birth of AV technology, that it started off at full cyborg instead of the much simpler back jack which is too complicated for me to buy when a "better" option is available.If some level of Einborging happened after the war in order to keep the original pilots functional, that I could see.
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Dec 19, 2016 14:48
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I'm pretty sure it would be costlier in both time and resources to replace a powerful full custom mobile suit using an incredibly difficult to manufacture twinned Ahab reactor setup that you lost due to sending it into combat against gigantic murder engines with a suboptimal pilot at the helm than it would to make sure you had the best possible pilot for the job, though. Given what we've seen of the Hashmal, it's incredibly unlikely that a Gundam sent into combat with a mobile armor with a poorly trained conscript at the helm would accomplish anything besides dying and getting their suit obliterated. As for your second point, if anything, I feel a full cyborg setup as the progenitor of AV technology followed by effective miniaturization and refinement leading to cheaper/easier injections that make "natural" whiskers that do the job but less efficiently or safely makes more sense.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:04
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Does cost really matter when humans are on the brink of extinction?
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Dec 19, 2016 15:51
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Tae posted:Does cost really matter when humans are on the brink of extinction? Resources are likely a limiting factor when mobile armors are blowing up your major population and industrial centers and killing everyone who would normally be extracting rare resources. Time is an even more pressing factor when you're talking about developing countermeasures to killer AI that don't need to ever stop their rampage to sleep or eat or rest. I doubt they could just build a new Gundam when some random idiot thirteen year old who happened to survive being shot full of nanomachines strokes out and gets the illustrous Gundam Buer sliced into segments by a mobile armor on his first time out.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:29
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The gundams weren't really the first mobile suits. Its entirely possible candidate pilots got polished by fighting plumas and supporting other gundam units in the fields before being promoted to gundam user. It might also mean that the AV system wasn't an exclusive thing that only the best got, it might have been a quick mass produced feature and those that survived long enough got placed into the strongest units available at the time.
Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 16:42
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Kanos posted:I'm pretty sure it would be costlier in both time and resources to replace a powerful full custom mobile suit using an incredibly difficult to manufacture twinned Ahab reactor setup that you lost due to sending it into combat against gigantic murder engines with a suboptimal pilot at the helm than it would to make sure you had the best possible pilot for the job, though. Given what we've seen of the Hashmal, it's incredibly unlikely that a Gundam sent into combat with a mobile armor with a poorly trained conscript at the helm would accomplish anything besides dying and getting their suit obliterated. How much of a difference in performance would you actually get between an experienced pilot and an inexperienced one? The AV system allows for the pilot to directly download the manual regardless of literacy and the Gundam frame was made humanoid so it was easier/intuitive for the pilot to control; the design strongl suggests that it was made with the idea that the pilot can become proficient with it as quickly as possible regardless of previous ability. The suits were made to withstand MA attacks so I doubt a previously untrained pilot would get immediately ganked. Beam weapons are neutralized by its nano laminate armor, pluma (assuming they are universal to MA and not just Hashmal) should be dealt with by supporting MS (like the Valkyrja frame units) to allow the Gundam to focus on the MA, and the MA itself prioritizes attacking large groups of humans over the gundams until they interfere. With so many advantages working for it, someone who can brawl can easily translate that into piloting and fighting through the AV system would be all you would need. It would be better to put the experienced and trained pilots into the supporting MS since they aren't plug in and play. I think you're really underestimating what a desperate kid who has nothing to lose can do, especially since I doubt they have 72 ace pilots available or the time to train them up. a computer ghost fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 16:44
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All this talk and the recent episodes is making me want a spin off to the show that focuses on the Calamity War. Watching a bunch of Gundam fighting to the death with mecha dragons would be a lot of fun to watch.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:47
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Maybe Calamity War era Earth was just one big cyberpunk setting and everyone had cyberjacks and every MS had AV.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:50
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Adel posted:How much of a difference in performance would you actually get between an experienced pilot and an inexperienced one? Quite a bit, actually. The book learning vs. street smarts dichotomy in human culture didn't come from nowhere.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:51
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