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To be clear, all postings about snails on razors aside, I'm not full on crackers and ready to start killing people. Instead, it's more that the therapists have listened to me, extensively, and I do not feel like I've really obtained any particular insight or direction that has made things better. I know it is not their job to "fix" my problems, but to give me tools, resources, etc. But for whatever reason, I have not been able to make use of what they have given me (or I have not been able to understand what they've given me, I don't know what it is) in a way that has provided material help on a day by day basis. They frankly seem a bit stymied themselves. (The first thing they all seem to struggle with is they all want to put me into the "overachieving, works too much, perfectionist" basket - and I have to repeatedly tell them that my problem is not working too much and being a perfectionist, but the opposite, in that I don't really give a gently caress about this work and it makes me nervous and miserable - and even then, I don't think they believe me, because it is more convenient/easy to believe in the "hard charging law firm partner who is stressed from working too much being a perfectionist" stereotype.) So while I am open to the concept of additional therapy, it is a little difficult, because I do question how much time and resources (including money, which is not insubstantial) I should stick into something that has not provided epiphanies in the past. Or how I would even go about once again trying to find someone who might actually make a difference. Also, welcome to my E&N. Let me know if this gets old. SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2016 17:58
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To be clear it sounds like you might need it once the particular stressor, your job you hate, is gone. It makes sense that if you hate the job that much the stress isn't going away while it's there.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:05
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evilweasel posted:To be clear it sounds like you might need it once the particular stressor, your job you hate, is gone. It makes sense that if you hate the job that much the stress isn't going away while it's there. Yeah. I know I'm treading ground I've discussed before, but my fear is that this is something in me, that I'm going to be stressed at and hate any job. Such that I will start a new job, and find myself feeling similar sleeplessness, anxiety, and misery, but realize that because I am not longer a private practice partner, I cannot use my relative freedom of action (i.e. not being stuck in an office on-site in house) to avoid things, schedule breathers, etc., and that I am making a ton less compensation. Of course, some of that is a red-herring, as it's not like I'll continue making good compensation here (or even have a job here) if I cannot somehow increase my hours. Which then leads back into the trap of that being very difficult for me to do, as I am miserable, and finding it harder and harder to seek out additional misery (hours). I want to be part of the Greatest Generation, where it did not occur to you to be miserable with your job - you just sat at the desk and ground away, because you weren't a loving pussy. Like even this - I am aware that as I sit here, worried about having too much to do in the next couple of days, and not enough to do in the coming year in general, I'm typing missives on Something Awful rather than actually doing something about it. SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 18:09
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How long until you can just never work again and live off savings?
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Dec 20, 2016 18:11
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mastershakeman posted:How long until you can just never work again and live off savings? Well, that depends. The problem with that is that short of having stupefying wealth (which I do not have), it is difficult to know for sure how long your money is guaranteed to last. How long will you live? So while I have enough that a 3% withdrawal rate should allow me to theoretically live a perpetual lower-middle class existence (think $40-50k per year - I have thought about buying a small house for a couple hundred thousand, and trying to live very frugally on the ROI on the remainder of my corpus), there are factors that make that feel very risky. How much and how available will health insurance be five years from now, ten years from now (or even now) while unemployed? What do you do if you're out of the workplace for 10 years and have a material health event? What do you do if you're out of the workplace for 10 years and the market takes a massive dump, meaning you no longer have the ROI necessary to sustain a 3% inflation adjusted withdrawal? Would the amount that a 3% withdrawal brings me really be enough to live on (again, because while it's not a tiny amount of money, it would be a single middle/lower-middle class income even if the market did cooperate), or would I feel miserable like I'm barely dodging homelessness living on cat food? Realize that the amount I listed would be if the market performs in accordance with historical measures over a long term cycle (e.g. there would be ups and downs, but generally a 6-7% overall rate of return allowing for a 3% withdrawal to hedge against inflation). See the Trinity Study, for example, which is probably now a little outdated as to its 4% withdrawal number, and only gives 95% success for a 30 year period. SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 18:16
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SlyFrog posted:I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving. West Coast 3L preparing to start work in Texas next year. Just wanted to say this too is my nightmare and that I watch this movie every exam period.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:29
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3% would get me a nice dinner.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:29
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joat mon posted:3% would get me a nice dinner. Yes, but you are a well adjusted person who still functions at your job and will not be homeless sucking dicks for $5 a pop soon. So you have that going for you, which is nice.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:33
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ChinaBob posted:West Coast 3L preparing to start work in Texas next year. Just wanted to say this too is my nightmare and that I watch this movie every exam period. Where in Texas?
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Dec 20, 2016 18:40
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CaptainScraps posted:Where in Texas? Austin. Went to UT and the worked in Austin for a few years before going to law school, looking forward to being back.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:46
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ChinaBob posted:Austin. Went to UT and the worked in Austin for a few years before going to law school, looking forward to being back. Hope you got big law and can afford to live here again.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:54
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Also, here is something that I actually do think is true about the practice of law that might be a lesson for would be law students (and is something I think I struggle with in particular). Law is, fundamentally, a very aggressive profession. By this, I do not just mean the obvious examples of litigation. I mean that on an item by item, day by day basis, law is about looking for other's mistakes and gently caress ups, and having others search for yours. By way of example for what I do, even when I'm working with my own clients (general counsel, business people), it is not "collaborative" in the sense that a lot of jobs are. When you're going through an agreement together, even with your own client, it does not feel like you are building something productive (or at least it does not to me). Instead, the focus is on "what did you miss." Did you think of and cover off against three bad scenarios? Maybe you missed a fourth. When a general counsel asks whether the agreement has a particular provision, it is not just to be constructive and further build the document - there is a built in presumption that they really shouldn't have had to ask about that, because you as their counsel should have already considered it (i.e. you missed it). It's constant judgment. I do not think I have been in a transaction around here where there is not a constant focus on who is a "good lawyer" and who is a "bad lawyer." If you are the wrong personality type (as I clearly am), law can feel like a constant challenge to your intellectual abilities, capability, and self-worth. And not in the good "challenge yourself and step out of your comfort zone" sort of way. But instead, in an "every day is an intellectual dick-measuring contest, hope you didn't gently caress it up" kind of way. EDIT: Queue "that's the way the world works, it's not just law." SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 18:57
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SlyFrog, may I make a suggestion? Get evaluated for OCD. My wife works for an OCD and Anxiety therapist, and based off of her stories from work and your posts, you may suffer from it. The "obsessive" part of OCD is way more common than the "compulsive" part and can seem really similar to crippling anxiety. I would also recommend finding someone who specializes in OCD, because normal therapists know jack poo poo about actually treating it. If you'd like, I can PM you the contact info for my wife's place. Her boss is exceptionally good at what he does, and the assessment only requires filling out some questionnaires and talking via Skype.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:12
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Counterpoint - the anxiety, melancholy, depression, and fear you feel is just how some people are. Especially educated professionals in a modern era. Nothing really matters and this life sucks but any other life would be worse and some day it'll all get taken away, probably suddenly and for no real reason. Merry Christmas! edit: also drugs or therapy just distract from or mask this, it'll still be there terrorist ambulance fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 19:29
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Just think of the tax breaks you're going to get during the trumpenreich! That should make you at least a little at ease.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:52
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Mr. Nice! posted:Just think of the tax breaks you're going to get during the trumpenreich! That should make you at least a little at ease. Sadly, you do not get tax breaks on the money you've already made. And unless I keep doing this job, I'm not going to continue in the bracket that will be happy with Trump's tax breaks, if you know what I mean. I am somewhat worried about the spectacular stock market crash Trump could bring about, however.
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Dec 20, 2016 20:34
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SlyFrog posted:Well, that depends. The problem with that is that short of having stupefying wealth (which I do not have), it is difficult to know for sure how long your money is guaranteed to last. How long will you live? So while I have enough that a 3% withdrawal rate should allow me to theoretically live a perpetual lower-middle class existence (think $40-50k per year - I have thought about buying a small house for a couple hundred thousand, and trying to live very frugally on the ROI on the remainder of my corpus), there are factors that make that feel very risky. You don't have to live off the withdrawals alone, because you're not retiring. You go into some other "profession" where maybe you make gently caress all per hour, but hey, even a fry cook at McDonalds is going to make 20k in a year in the right state. Not much on it's own, but adding 20k to 40-50k does quite a bit to bump up your quality of life, or alternately, allow you to withdraw less and require smaller savings. Might get you some benefits too. Sure McDonalds isn't particularly satisfying, but it's not stressful. And that's about your worst case option. I went on a cruise this summer to Alaska. All the random tourist poo poo was run by these early 20 somethings. They go up to Alaska and spend their summer driving boats, hiking to glaciers, drinking in the woods, and explaining nature crap to tourists. Once it gets cold there, they move to Central America, or Australia, and teach surfing or give Kangaroo tours or whatever the gently caress. They don't make much but their expenses are covered and really what else do you need? These people have it figured out and you should go do that. We should all go do that. (loving loans) Kase Im Licht fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 21:19
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SlyFrog posted:If you are the wrong personality type (as I clear am), law can feel like a constant challenge to your intellectual abilities, capability, and self-worth. And not in the good "challenge yourself and step out of your comfort zone" sort of way. But instead, in an "every day is an intellectual dick-measuring contest, hope you didn't gently caress it up" kind of way. Litigation at least has the thrill of victory and agony of defeat. I'm so competitive I start chomping at the bit if I haven't gotten a good contested hearing in a while. It's the rest of the law that is soul draining.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:52
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Taking some time off to focus on getting an accurate diagnosis (adult ADHD, come to find out) helped me a ton. Of course now I can't find a job. One step forward, two steps back I suppose.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:26
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http://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2016/12/aba_files_lawsuitag.htmlquote:The American Bar Association has filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the United States Department of Education to stop the Department’s decision to retroactively refuse to honor loan forgiveness commitments it made under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program (PSLF) to individuals who have dedicated their careers to public service. Looks like the DOE made it so the ABA and other orgs aren't 'public service' under new guidelines. I'm still reading through the complaint. I'd never heard of a Employment Certification Form for people who were on PSLF, I wonder how many people know about them. editxmillion: quote:Although Ms. Mahaffie acknowledged that “private organizations that provide public interest law services may qualify as eligible employers for PSLF,” she concluded that “no documentation from the ABA or from a PSLF applicant demonstrates that the primary purpose of the ABA is to provide ‘public interest law services’ [as] the term is defined in the PSLF regulations.” I hate the ABA but it's also pretty brutal on people to get this sprung on them so I'm not sure how much schadenfreude to enjoy The complaint seems to be saying that the government has decided to institute a 'primary purpose' test for PSLF, which I'm guessing would destroy all the doctors working at non-profit hospitals. edit wootles: quote:Ms. Quintero-Millan’s student loan balance, which was approximately $340,000 when she first started making payments after law school, now stands at approximately $420,000. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 22:29
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disjoe posted:Taking some time off to focus on getting an accurate diagnosis (adult ADHD, come to find out) helped me a ton. The problem is, I'm not sure what more I can do to get an accurate diagnosis. I've been to regular doctors. I've been to psychologists, psychiatrists. I'm not hiding this stuff from them; I'm being open and truthful. None of them have really given me any sort of diagnosis, other than some generalized depression and anxiety stuff (which, I have to admit, was like, "No, really?"). Honestly, the things that have been by far the most helpful have been the little things I've found myself through research (e.g. mindfulness and meditation). Given that history, I genuinely am a bit stymied at what more I can do. (Genuinely - I'm not being insulting to the notion, I just don't know what more I'm supposed to do - eventually you get tired of going to doctors without results.) Kase Im Licht posted:You don't have to live off the withdrawals alone, because you're not retiring. You go into some other "profession" where maybe you make gently caress all per hour, but hey, even a fry cook at McDonalds is going to make 20k in a year in the right state. Not much on it's own, but adding 20k to 40-50k does quite a bit to bump up your quality of life, or alternately, allow you to withdraw less and require smaller savings. Might get you some benefits too. I know this is right in my head, just in my gut, it's hard to see a job at all, just from the burnout (and from being a 40+ year old with no skills trying to get a job). But I know this is right, and it is helpful to hear it. SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 22:57
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SlyFrog, every time you post I want to give you a hug. Or go buy you a beer and write it off as biz dev and then commiserate for a few hours. Seriously though, that sucks. A few thoughts: What would the ideal fit be for the next job? Like, other than playing League what do you see yourself being intellectually satisfied but not stressed by doing? If you can find a job in an industry with they vibe it could help. (And you're not 40 yrs in with no skills-you're 40 yrs in with experience in legal blah blah looking to join exciting new industry blah blah blah.) As for an in-house position, it might not solve the anxiety but it could channel it in a new direction that might be more manageable. Most of the in house folks I know say they spend most of their time trying to find a way to say "Yes, if" rather than no when the business end of things wants to make a boneheaded illegal decision. Maybe it's different if the in house gigs you look at are all contract drafting or approval. But that style of gig avoids the "find all the holes" that seems to be giving you anxiety. Your job is still to find the possible holes, sure, but more important is finding a solution or a way around them.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:13
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mastershakeman posted:I'd never heard of a Employment Certification Form for people who were on PSLF I literally filled mine out today. I figured I need to have everything in order before Trump takes office, as a precaution. You don't actually need to certify your employment until you've made the 120 payments, but if you wait until then and have made any mistakes, you're basically boned.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:19
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Are there no state jobs in Minnesota? I know the pay is poo poo in MN, but California employs literally thousands of transactional lawyers who all go home at 5 and forget they have a job.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:34
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TheMadMilkman posted:I literally filled mine out today. I figured I need to have everything in order before Trump takes office, as a precaution. Yeah I think as long as you're in a 501c3 or directly for the govt you're 'ok' but considering the last two years of Obama had the trial balloon of 50k forgiveness cap + now this, I think it's signaling the death knell of PSLF Also I don't think there's government jobs anywhere except California and DC. Oh, and the pacific islands. That might be hyperbole but that's how it feels
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Dec 20, 2016 23:56
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SlyFrog posted:If you are the wrong personality type (as I clearly am), law can feel like a constant challenge to your intellectual abilities, capability, and self-worth. And not in the good "challenge yourself and step out of your comfort zone" sort of way. But instead, in an "every day is an intellectual dick-measuring contest, hope you didn't gently caress it up" kind of way. And I like being a lawyer.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:27
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SlyFrog posted:I know this is right in my head, just in my gut, it's hard to see a job at all, just from the burnout (and from being a 40+ year old with no skills trying to get a job). But I know this is right, and it is helpful to hear it. You have something like a low seven figure nest egg, can live anywhere and don't have any super expensive tastes. Yeah okay you hate your job and are terrified about a lifestyle downgrade, but have you considered that there are > 100 countries on the planet, every single one with better weather than your frozen tundra state, where you can do basic contracts/immigration/tax planning for expats and/or gently caress off to teach English and still take 30 hours a week off to go to the beach while doing better than break even? I'm not even talking about Thailand or some other place where you might think you need to be a 20-something. Take six months off for a sabbatical. Pick a Central American country/town with an expat population that needs an American to do paperwork for American things and take a flight down. Put a few ads in the local English language paper, web forum, etc. and see what shows up in your inbox in between ordering margueritas. Or just buy a bar, it's what one of our 50-something American expat directors did a few months back when he burned out 
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Dec 21, 2016 00:46
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to be honest I'm really close to doing an e/n of my own poo poo to try to point out the absurdity of slyfrogs situation, but a) I have it a shitload better than most people even when things are grim and b) he's not in a mental state where that's really helpful. slyfrog , not only do you need a vacation but you need one that reminds you that you're alive. what you need to do is go camping in Yellowstone over New year's like I did a few years ago. get away from everything, focus on literally not dying because you fail to start a fire the one time in your life you actually need one, and your problems will seem a lot smaller. or hell, just do it up in the boundary Waters. you live in one of the best states for outdoors activities and you need to take advantage of them when the lake thaws I'll come kayak the apostles with you. or heck go climb a mountain or just do something, ride a snowmobile around. get cold and warm and cold again. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 01:01
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Adar posted:Or just buy a bar, it's what one of our 50-something American expat directors did a few months back when he burned out
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Dec 21, 2016 01:26
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Slyfrog, I have good and bad news for you. You are not a therapy and pharma resistant special snow flake. More than likely you have some sort of anxiety disorder overlapping with or causing depression. So here is how you get better:. 1) engage in something socially; 2) engage with highly qualified therapists and psychologists; and 3) address any underlying substance abuse. You haven't mentioned substance abuse (that I've seen) but if you are as miserable as your posts you've probably been self medicating for a while). You are probably figuring out the reasons that it won't work or isn't worth it. Don't worry and just get help. Mental health isn't rocket science and there is help out there. Just engage even if you don't "feel" like you want to or that it's helping.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:47
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Roger_Mudd posted:Slyfrog, I have good and bad news for you. That's the problem, I have engaged. #1 - I've done all of these things. Honestly. Gone out, joined book clubs, gone to concerts, played cards with old people, volunteered my time to feed the starving children. I have done the social things. Exercised, eaten healthier. I've done the list of things for depression/anxiety that modern psychology says to do. #2 - Now that I'm sitting down and counting, I've tried six different therapists over roughly the past 6-7 years. Two psychiatrists. Many different types of prescribed drugs. None of these therapists were low effort "This person sucks, I'm out of here." All multiple months at a minimum. Some for a year or more. I did the homework they asked me to do. #3 - Thank god, no substance abuse issues, honestly. I probably end up having a drink or two every week. But that is genuinely just a drink or two every week. A shot of whiskey or a small bit of scotch at night while I'm doing something. Some weeks I don't think about it and do it at all. Some weeks maybe I have a single shot three nights out of the seven. That's it. No other substances. And I don't feel compelled to do more, like I'm resisting it or something. It's just something I've never thought to turn to in order to make it easier, not sure why, but I just haven't. I'm genuinely not afraid of therapy or trying it. I wish that I could figure out how to make it work for me. mastershakeman posted:to be honest I'm really close to doing an e/n of my own poo poo to try to point out the absurdity of slyfrogs situation, but a) I have it a shitload better than most people even when things are grim and b) he's not in a mental state where that's really helpful. I completely get the absurdity of my situation. Like i said, I have my faculties, and recognize how completely the epitome of First World Problems this is. I just wish I could also make my gut feel that, and not just the logic portion of my brain. And I'm not loving stepping outside on a weekend until it's not 20 below. Adar posted:You have something like a low seven figure nest egg, can live anywhere and don't have any super expensive tastes. Yeah okay you hate your job and are terrified about a lifestyle downgrade, but have you considered that there are > 100 countries on the planet, every single one with better weather than your frozen tundra state, where you can do basic contracts/immigration/tax planning for expats and/or gently caress off to teach English and still take 30 hours a week off to go to the beach while doing better than break even? I can barely keep my poo poo together to do a job - foreign countries are not on the agenda. I'm middle America white and scared, and that type of thing freaks me out more than it helps. (They have snakes and ISIS outside the U.S. - creepy.) Also, the rest of the world does not want me, because I say things like, "They have snakes and ISIS there, don't they?" nm posted:Are there no state jobs in Minnesota? They do have state jobs, but not so many as I think. And the issue that does not resolve for me is that I'm very afraid I could end up in that state job wanting to blow my brains out because it's the same paperwork, same job, just less ability to leave (because you're not a law firm partner). My problem is not really being overworked. I'm not sure I could forget I have a job. I have thought about the greatly reduced pay route for something with "less stress." My fear is that I would still hate it, but just be more captive to the job when I'm there (harder to keep people off your back when you're literally in the building and captive to your client, and when it does not cost them anything extra to bug you, because you're not billing them by the hour). Getting whiny, I know.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:05
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What do you actually enjoy? What do you do in life that makes you smile?
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Dec 21, 2016 02:17
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Mr. Nice! posted:What do you actually enjoy? What do you do in life that makes you smile? Video games, board games, good movies, good television, my kids (but not other people's kids), good books (though I have a harder time reading these days). I know that I'm really monopolizing things here, and I've had one of those bursts where I'm posting about a billion things in a five hour period, so I'm going to let this rest for a while. I am genuinely grateful for all of the advice and good thoughts.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:37
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We just really want our internet friend to be good. This kind of poo poo is tough to talk about in person. Lord knows my colleagues don't know about my anxiety and the anti depressants and therapists. There's a big stigma about it. It's good to have an internet safe place where you can anonymously vent about life and the problems we all face. You should get back into Warhammer or whatever was your poison back in the day. Nature's not for everyone.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:06
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just smoke weed like a normal person
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Dec 21, 2016 05:00
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:We just really want our internet friend to be good. This kind of poo poo is tough to talk about in person. Lord knows my colleagues don't know about my anxiety and the anti depressants and therapists. There's a big stigma about it. Absolutely this. Plus I can definitely see echoes of my future self in you, SlyFrog, so I want to help you figure it out so that I know how to sort myself out in 15 years once I have reached the "Partner-ennui" stage of lawyerdom, rather than the "Associate-terror" level I'm at now.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:00
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Arcturas posted:Absolutely this. Plus I can definitely see echoes of my future self in you, SlyFrog, so I want to help you figure it out so that I know how to sort myself out in 15 years once I have reached the "Partner-ennui" stage of lawyerdom, rather than the "Associate-terror" level I'm at now. aren't you in litigation? I don't know how it works on the corporate side of things, but I can definitely see, have definitely seen, the litigation equivalent of this bullshit: SlyFrog posted:15+ years of ". . . does hereby indemnify, defend, and hold harmless the previously mentioned party from, against, for, by, under, around, over, and loving between any and all claims, actions, investigations, losses, obligations, tribulations, annihilation, decimations, meditations, United Nations, congratulations . . . ." has utterly destroyed what little bit of writing ability I had. and actively maneuver myself to avoid it as much as possible because it would kill me in 2 years, not 20 I admit that I have the advantage of being a white male in a larger firm of a secondary market, so I definitely have more agency over what my future holds more than others, but just avoid avoid avoid as much as possible
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Dec 21, 2016 05:31
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:just smoke weed like a normal person This is probably a solid idea, more so now that so many states made it legal. It really took my edge off this semester when I was stressing to the point of nausea and not eating.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:06
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You’re totally sure you don’t want to move to a Pacific island that is part of the United States? Abugadu or I could make that happen. His island has snakes. On the other hand, his island also has a good burrito place, so I think he wins.
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Dec 21, 2016 12:06
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I looked through the first pages of your post history in this thread SlyFrog, and you said pretty much the same things 3-4 years ago as you do now. And you received pretty much the same advice, even the one about smooking weed. So idk, get serious about getting a new job maybe? 
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Dec 21, 2016 12:49
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