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Valiantman posted:Yeah, I meant to ask but forgot: what is bad in intinction? Why couldn't you mix the bread and wine before your mouth, theologically? It's not a very rare practice. Tossing out used disposable cups is nothing special either, since the belief in real presence that us Lutherans have means that while Jesus is truly and secretly present in the bread and wine during the communion, they don't actually change so after the communion is received, it's (again) just bread and wine. Yeah, you handle it with reverence and respect but sure, you can reuse them if there are lot of leftovers and using the aforementioned disposable cups isn't any way more problematic than washing the fancy goblets. There's nothing wrong with a priest or deacon dipping it for the communicant and then putting it directly on the communicant's tongue. The reason "self-intinction" is forbidden is because of the risk of spilling the Precious Blood. We don't even take our chalices directly to be washed - we rinse them out with holy water first, and then the priest (or someone else) consumes that water. So the concept of handing people a little plastic cup is horrifying enough without contemplating a trash can full of dregs of wine or grape juice - even though I know that it's only wine or grape juice, because Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don't do that.
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Dec 27, 2016 00:53
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pidan posted:What I've learned from reading about surveys is that people will say all kinds of stuff depending on how you ask the question. That's also why I think that anthropology-style freeform interviews are the only good way to find out people's opinions about something. Pew relies on self-identification to determine what somebody's religion is. That's how you get weird stuff like 15% of atheists saying that they believe strongly that God exists (in the one they did in 2007.) It's not really the most reliable of methods, but it's all they really have to work with if they want a large data set.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:26
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zonohedron posted:There's nothing wrong with a priest or deacon dipping it for the communicant and then putting it directly on the communicant's tongue. The reason "self-intinction" is forbidden is because of the risk of spilling the Precious Blood. We don't even take our chalices directly to be washed - we rinse them out with holy water first, and then the priest (or someone else) consumes that water. So the concept of handing people a little plastic cup is horrifying enough without contemplating a trash can full of dregs of wine or grape juice - even though I know that it's only wine or grape juice, because Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don't do that. the leftover dregs from my communion cups are just wine, yeah. but if I had been really fastidious and drank every drop, that wine i tossed on Xmas Eve would have had the real presence in it. if i'd spilled it? nbd, no real presence kind of ironic imo that luther's name is attached to people who are all  about spilled booze
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Dec 27, 2016 05:21
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Los Angeles / Southern California Liturgigoons: Any interest in a goon meetup to check out some of the very cool local churches? HEY GAL is through town every once in a while and we've been talking about checking out Armenian and Ethiopian liturgies, plus it's always good to make new friends  If you're interested but don't feel like posting your location in the thread feel free to PM me!
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Dec 27, 2016 06:53
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Pellisworth posted:Los Angeles / Southern California Liturgigoons: Reporting in!
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Dec 27, 2016 16:07
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Lutha Mahtin posted:the leftover dregs from my communion cups are just wine, yeah. but if I had been really fastidious and drank every drop, that wine i tossed on Xmas Eve would have had the real presence in it. if i'd spilled it? nbd, no real presence Meanwhile the Latin Rite Catholics withheld the chalice from the laity so they wouldn't spill the Precious Blood with their grubby paws for maybe up to eight centuries. (It's kinda unclear when the practice actually began, but was only officially re-allowed in 1970.) That was one of the reasons for the Hussite War, actually. Jacob of Mies from Bohemia starting giving Holy Communion in both kinds to the laity and the Council of Constance was "no, filthy heretic, the only Precious Blood spilled in Bohemia will be yours" or well probably nothing that cool, but allowing the laity to have access to both kinds during the Lord's Supper was a big deal during the Reformation. And now we have those little pre-packaged plastic things containing a wafer and grape juice! You flew too close to the sun, Protestants.
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Dec 27, 2016 18:24
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Eh, it was always more a question of practicality than dogma. IIRC after the Hussite War the Church quietly gave a special dispensation to Bohemian priests to let laypeople drink the Blood too fake edit: yep, I looked it up: the Hussite faction that eventually reunited with Rome was called the Utraquists. One of their most prominent representatives was King George of Poděbrady (though he reigned before the eventual reunion and was therefore declared a heretic by the Pope), who envisioned something like the European Union as early as the 15th century: quote:[George] attempted to secure peace with Rome by a radical suggestion, which some consider to have been a proposal before its time of a European Union. He proposed a treaty among all Christian powers, with Germany (then including Bohemia), France, and Italy and its princes the founding members, but others, especially the Hispanic powers, joining later. The member states would pledge to settle all differences by exclusively peaceful means. There was to be a common parliament and other common institutions and supranational insignia. George couched the proposal in Christian terms ("Europe" is not explicitly mentioned) as a way to stop the "abominable Turk" who had conquered Constantinople in 1453. He sent Leo of Rozmital on a tour of European courts with a draft treaty of The message of peace to promote this idea. George hoped that the treaty would come into effect in 1464. It is seen as one of historical visions of European unity forshadowing the European Union. System Metternich fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 18:40
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we take communion by intinction, and always have. tiny golden spoon, which leads to conflicts with the civil authorities when there is an epidemic
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Dec 27, 2016 19:08
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Wait, Precious Blood? Is this another transubstantiation thing?
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Dec 27, 2016 19:21
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Cythereal posted:Wait, Precious Blood? Is this another transubstantiation thing? Yes, God's blood is precious because it's, you know, God's
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Dec 27, 2016 19:27
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HEY GAL posted:Yes, God's blood is precious because it's, you know, God's What need does God have of blood? Still, thanks for clarifying. Never heard that specific term before. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 19:33
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Cythereal posted:What need does God have of blood? i assume jesus's body worked like anyone else's, so to circulate oxygen throughout his body
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Dec 27, 2016 19:41
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If I remember correctly, the ancient greek (and to some extent the roman) pagans believed their gods did not have blood, but rather ichor, a purplish thick substance that was not blood in their bodies. The emphasis christ had blood might serve to delegitimise those traditions, though I'm just guessing here.
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Dec 27, 2016 19:48
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HEY GAL posted:i assume jesus's body worked like anyone else's, so to circulate oxygen throughout his body It was a Star Trek V joke.  Personally, I agree with the SBC that Jesus was speaking symbolically of the wine being his blood.
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Dec 27, 2016 19:51
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Cythereal posted:It was a Star Trek V joke. yeah i think we gathered that since you're not catholic, orthodox, or high church anglican
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Dec 27, 2016 19:55
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Mo Tzu posted:yeah i think we gathered that since you're not catholic, orthodox, or high church anglican You never know. I've been to a Baptist (not Southern Baptist, just Baptist) church that believed in transubstantiation. In theory, the SBC also doesn't officially dictate what every member church believes or requires member churches to believe in anything beyond Protestant 101.
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Dec 27, 2016 20:02
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Cythereal posted:Protestant 101 
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Dec 27, 2016 20:14
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HEY GAL posted:i assume jesus's body worked like anyone else's, so to circulate oxygen throughout his body Also to remove waste. Shame it couldn't have removed a roman spear tip, thorns and some nine inch nails.
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Dec 27, 2016 20:21
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HEY GAL posted:is there any other kind, really? Anglicans, for one. Diet Catholic. Same great taste, less homophobia and misogyny.
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Dec 27, 2016 20:42
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System Metternich posted:Eh, it was always more a question of practicality than dogma. IIRC after the Hussite War the Church quietly gave a special dispensation to Bohemian priests to let laypeople drink the Blood too Yeah, I could never find any theological reasons for withholding the chalice, just practical concerns. I did find this one interesting thing from the early days of trying to hash out how communion in the hand was going to be implemented. quote:As to the way to carry out the new rite: one possible model is the traditional usage, which expresses the ministerial functions, by having the priest or deacon place the Host in the hand of the communicant. Alternatively, it is permissible to adopt a simpler procedure, namely, allowing the faithful themselves to take the Host from the ciborium or paten. The faithful should consume the Host before returning to their place; the minister's part will be brought out by use of the usual formulary, "The Body of Christ," to which the communicant replies: "Amen." Yeah, that got dropped pretty quick. If traditionalists have problems with reception in the hand now, I can't imagine what they would think about the laity rummaging around for consecrated hosts in the ciborium.
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Dec 27, 2016 20:47
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Cythereal posted:Anglicans, for one. glass houses, SBC
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Dec 27, 2016 20:55
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Mo Tzu posted:glass houses, SBC I personally don't identify with the SBC much anymore. My theology is still heavily in line, but I can't stomach their misogyny, homophobia, and entanglement in right-wing American politics.
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Dec 27, 2016 21:08
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the friendly denominational sniping here just made me envision interdenominational theological disputes as the "library" portion of RuPaul's Drag Race and now i probably need confession for laughing so hard at the image
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Dec 27, 2016 21:52
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Bel_Canto posted:the friendly denominational sniping here just made me envision interdenominational theological disputes as the "library" portion of RuPaul's Drag Race and now i probably need confession for laughing so hard at the image Reading is fundamentalist
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Dec 27, 2016 22:49
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Pellisworth posted:Reading is fundamentalist So far the drag queens I've got are Extra Ecclesia (Catholic), Geneva TULIPs (Calvinist) and Concordia Augustana (take a loving guess). Happy to accept submissions for other denominations.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:29
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Bel_Canto posted:So far the drag queens I've got are Extra Ecclesia (Catholic), Geneva TULIPs (Calvinist) and Concordia Augustana (take a loving guess). Happy to accept submissions for other denominations. Since the Orthodox don't have one yet, Patty Rarch or even better Filly O'Kway Edit: or Filly O'Kay I don't know how to pronounce Latin Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 00:09
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Divine Miss Terri?
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Dec 28, 2016 14:07
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Sola Scriptura for the Baptists.
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Dec 28, 2016 14:37
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Cythereal posted:Sola Scriptura for the Baptists. Her career went nowhere though cause she doesn't dance, shuts down the bar and sings the same three hymns every show.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:50
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imo the patron drag queen of this thread would be Baps Tism
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Dec 28, 2016 20:19
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Lutha Mahtin posted:imo the patron drag queen of this thread would be Baps Tism Maybe Liter G.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:43
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Lutha Mahtin posted:imo the patron drag queen of this thread would be Baps Tism more like venus xtravaganza or octavia st laurent
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Dec 28, 2016 20:52
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Mo Tzu posted:more like venus xtravaganza or octavia st laurent YES
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Dec 28, 2016 21:10
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Y'know I'm actually pretty impressed with the NABRE. Parishes can get copies in bulk for about $5 each (my RCIA director has a storage closet full of them) and it has nice introductions and footnotes using modern historical and literary criticism. It's not afraid to say that "yeah Isaiah was probably written by two dudes and maybe some disciples of the first guy and the Magnificat is probably some unrelated hymn the author of Luke decided to use here." Too bad the translation itself is pretty janky and uninspiring. It's no 1611 KJV though.
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Dec 29, 2016 01:07
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So I don't know how your congregation dinners go, but I had jóle dinner with my blot circle yesterday, and it largely involved cheap beer, enormous amounts of duck and pork( and even enormouser amounts of kale cultivars: broccoli, brussels sprout, red kale, green kale etc.) and long derails about mythology, the faults of EU and proper canon of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy 
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Dec 29, 2016 10:04
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I am thinking about attending Mass this Saturday. Haven't been to church in years and never to a Catholic service. Hope I enjoy it.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:31
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Meridian posted:I am thinking about attending Mass this Saturday. Haven't been to church in years and never to a Catholic service. Hope I enjoy it. This coming Sunday (so Saturday evening as well) is a Marian holy day, so be prepared to hear a lot of Mary.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:34
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Thirteen Orphans posted:This coming Sunday (so Saturday evening as well) is a Marian holy day, so be prepared to hear a lot of Mary. That is one part of Catholicism that really interests me. Seems to be a lot of intercessory prayer and reverence for Mary in general. Much more so than I have been exposed to previously.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:41
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Meridian posted:That is one part of Catholicism that really interests me. Seems to be a lot of intercessory prayer and reverence for Mary in general. Much more so than I have been exposed to previously. Something you might find interesting, then: In Catholic Marian theology, Mary has a special place in devotion to Saints. God is afforded worship, known as latria. Only God is worthy of worship. The devotion which is given to the saints is called dulia. The Virgin Mary is the sole recipient of the highest form of devotion to a saint known as hyperdulia. So theologically she is afforded a higher place than the other saints, but in no way is part of the worship due to God alone.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:54
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Meridian posted:That is one part of Catholicism that really interests me. Seems to be a lot of intercessory prayer and reverence for Mary in general. Much more so than I have been exposed to previously. Thirteen Orphans posted:Something you might find interesting, then: In Catholic Marian theology, Mary has a special place in devotion to Saints. God is afforded worship, known as latria. Only God is worthy of worship. The devotion which is given to the saints is called dulia. The Virgin Mary is the sole recipient of the highest form of devotion to a saint known as hyperdulia. So theologically she is afforded a higher place than the other saints, but in no way is part of the worship due to God alone. *Baptist screaming intensifies*
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Dec 29, 2016 17:56
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