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I'm looking to build a library, or at least a shelf of books from early Christian writings. Irenaeus, Ignatius, Augustine, stuff like that. Does anyone happen to have offhand knowledge of what particular books or collected writings I should be looking for? I don't mind going to book stores and trying to find good versions used, but shopping online is difficult because the descriptions of the books aren't clear and a lot of reviews say things like "commentary of commentary" and such. I'm looking for the actual text and maybe commentary on that, but not someone just doing a cliff notes version. That may not be very clear, since I'm not throwing out titles, but I can do that if anyone can help. I guess the better question would be what books should I absolutely have if I am interested in Christian theology in general with a leaning toward the history of/early writings? Would appreciate any guidance on that.
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Dec 31, 2016 06:12
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| # ? May 14, 2024 23:47 |
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I can give you some principal works right now. Irenaeus is most famous for Against Heresies, Origen is most famous for On First Principles and Agaist Celsus, Ignatius of Antioch is best known for his letters, and Augustine is best known for his Confessions, On the Trinity, and the City of God. I'd also recommend the orations of Gregory of Nazianzus and Basil the Great's On the Holy Spirit.
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Dec 31, 2016 06:52
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Smoking Crow posted:How can you trust There, maybe ask the guy this? Unless he believes that God Himself wrote the bible in it's entirety which surely isn't that common right? Or is it one of those things where people believe the bible was so divinely inspired that mistakes are impossible? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 08:22
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Josef bugman posted:There, maybe ask the guy this? Unless he believes that God Himself wrote the bible in it's entirety which surely isn't that common right? it's the second one
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Dec 31, 2016 08:29
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HEY GAL posted:michael voris is repurposing the phrase to refer to his hosed up ideas, that is spelled out in the article Thankfully Voris went down the rabbit hole of geocentricism so he's quickly eroding whatever social currency he had before. Paladinus posted:Can you pick any verse at all? Can you get Numbers 2:6? That's how you spice up confirmation.
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Dec 31, 2016 10:05
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The Phlegmatist posted:Thankfully Voris went down the rabbit hole of geocentricism so he's quickly eroding whatever social currency he had before. hahahaha really
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Dec 31, 2016 14:54
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Found out this morning that my dad's life verse was from Nehemiah, don't know the exact verse number but it was along the lines "But they are a stubborn house, so I have made thy forehead hard as flint against their foreheads."
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Dec 31, 2016 15:14
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I'm disappointed in certain posters (you know who you are) for not repping the Orthodox Church's hat game better. It's... extremely powerful.
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Dec 31, 2016 16:03
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Even our laypeople have access to some of the mightiest hats (when they get married)
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Dec 31, 2016 16:07
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I thought we were intentionally left out of the hat game because it's like letting Shaq loose on a high-school b-ball game.
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Dec 31, 2016 16:10
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my dad posted:I thought we were intentionally left out of the hat game because it's like letting Shaq loose on a high-school b-ball game. if you think that would be bad to watch or be a part of i don't know what to tell you
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Dec 31, 2016 16:49
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StashAugustine posted:hahahaha really Yeah. I pay attention to alt-right Christian circles (warning: do not do this if you have high blood pressure, may be hazardous to health) and Voris has very little traction there. He's just not ecumenical enough, mostly, but also the alt-right likes to style themselves as enlightened thinkers of a new era and geocentricism is pretty strongly in "whoa, buddy are you serious" territory. Maybe there's a den of alt-right Catholics I have yet to wander into that likes him. I don't know.
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Dec 31, 2016 18:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:Yeah. I pay attention to alt-right Christian circles (warning: do not do this if you have high blood pressure, may be hazardous to health) and Voris has very little traction there. He's just not ecumenical enough, mostly, but also the alt-right likes to style themselves as enlightened thinkers of a new era and geocentricism is pretty strongly in "whoa, buddy are you serious" territory. In my experience with hardcore right-wing fundies, geocentrism is one of those things that a lot of them like but also know that openly proclaiming it makes them very vulnerable to attack and dismissal when what they most strongly want is to be taken seriously.
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Dec 31, 2016 18:41
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The part of Protestantism I will miss the most is geocentricists making fun of flat-earthers for being dumb.
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Dec 31, 2016 19:15
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The Phlegmatist posted:The part of Protestantism I will miss the most is geocentricists making fun of flat-earthers for being dumb. Fortunately, the Southern Baptist church I grew up in is nothing like that anti-intellectual. I've always taken the view that science is the most spiritual career one could pursue short of becoming a priest/preacher. The whole notion of science is learning how God assembled the universe and learning about and appreciating his magnificent creation, in my eyes, and to me it's impossible to read about astronomy or microbiology or quantum physics and not feel a sense of religious wonder at the one who put it all together.
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Dec 31, 2016 19:18
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Otoh, science is insanely boring
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Dec 31, 2016 19:20
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Cythereal posted:Fortunately, the Southern Baptist church I grew up in is nothing like that anti-intellectual. I've always taken the view that science is the most spiritual career one could pursue short of becoming a priest/preacher. The whole notion of science is learning how God assembled the universe and learning about and appreciating his magnificent creation, in my eyes, and to me it's impossible to read about astronomy or microbiology or quantum physics and not feel a sense of religious wonder at the one who put it all together. SURPRISE! You're now Catholic. Report to the nearest Mass for processing.
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Dec 31, 2016 19:33
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The Phlegmatist posted:SURPRISE! You're now Catholic. *strips out all the liturgy and tradition* Oh wait I'm a Baptist. That's the thing about how comparatively bare-bones the codified theology is of such Protestant movements, for good or ill there's a lot of room for interpretation and there's nothing intrinsically anti-intellectual in the SBC's statement of beliefs. One of many reasons I hate how entangled the SBC has become in right-wing American politics.
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Dec 31, 2016 19:37
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Cythereal posted:Fortunately, the Southern Baptist church I grew up in is nothing like that anti-intellectual. I've always taken the view that science is the most spiritual career one could pursue short of becoming a priest/preacher.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:12
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HEY GAL posted:i feel that way about history, since i can pray for the souls of everyone i study lord knows they need it
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Dec 31, 2016 20:21
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StashAugustine posted:lord knows they need it
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Dec 31, 2016 20:23
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The Phlegmatist posted:Yeah. I pay attention to alt-right Christian circles (warning: do not do this if you have high blood pressure, may be hazardous to health) and Voris has very little traction there. He's just not ecumenical enough, mostly, but also the alt-right likes to style themselves as enlightened thinkers of a new era and geocentricism is pretty strongly in "whoa, buddy are you serious" territory. Voris the darling of the sedevacantists and closet trads, and something called "The Resistance". There's a lot of overlap with other groups like oathkeepers. Stay away if you value anything. I can't stand the guy.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:25
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so, the nexus of left and lgbt trads, their counterpart, is basically just us, isn't it. i'll see you against the wall when bannon and matthew heimbach take over everywhere else, i guess
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Dec 31, 2016 20:27
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Smoking Crow posted:Otoh, science is insanely boring Yeah. I have a crusade against chemicals, myself. They're real bad.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:28
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HEY GAL posted:so, the nexus of left and lgbt trads, their counterpart, is basically just us, isn't it. I'm a liberal Baptist. Wonder what the difference in sentence will be for a heretic versus a mere heathen.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:29
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HEY GAL posted:you are english, right? how familiar are you with american fundamentalism? Evidently not as much as I thought I was, and oh for the love of Pete. So, when did warhammer dwarves get this good at hats? HEY GAL posted:i am pretty sure my subjects are in a good place, since they suffered so terribly in life. The peasantry I could see it happen to. Most of the nobility are, hopefully, somewhere warm. Cythereal posted:I'm a liberal Baptist. Wonder what the difference in sentence will be for a heretic versus a mere heathen. As in most cases, it will probably be harsher. As a quick question I was never really told the difference between "Baptist" and "Evangelical". I know what they mean, baptism during your life and evangelising to people, but what are the real differences between them? Because to me they are usually just used interchangeably to mean "Fat, white and rich boss hogg lookalike ranting about hellfire and asking for money".
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Dec 31, 2016 20:36
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HEY GAL posted:so, the nexus of left and lgbt trads, their counterpart, is basically just us, isn't it. i think he meant closet as in unwilling to admit they're trads but that works too
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Dec 31, 2016 20:36
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Smoking Crow posted:Otoh, science is insanely boring 
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Dec 31, 2016 20:37
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Josef bugman posted:As a quick question I was never really told the difference between "Baptist" and "Evangelical". I know what they mean, baptism during your life and evangelising to people, but what are the real differences between them? Because to me they are usually just used interchangeably to mean "Fat, white and rich boss hogg lookalike ranting about hellfire and asking for money". They're both incredibly vague terms. "Baptist" means whatever a church calling itself a Baptist church wants it to mean - the Southern Baptist Convention is a large, powerful organization that dominates religion in the American South, but just because a church calls itself Baptist doesn't mean it's part of the SBC.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:39
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Cythereal posted:They're both incredibly vague terms. "Baptist" means whatever a church calling itself a Baptist church wants it to mean - the Southern Baptist Convention is a large, powerful organization that dominates religion in the American South, but just because a church calls itself Baptist doesn't mean it's part of the SBC. I don't want to come across as too stupid here. But are the SBC overwhelmingly white congregations?
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Dec 31, 2016 20:41
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Josef bugman posted:I don't want to come across as too stupid here. But are the SBC overwhelmingly white congregations? Politically, yes. There are many black churches in the SBC, but the SBC's leadership is overwhelmingly white and tied to conservative Southern politics - which means white and racist. The SBC's relationship with black communities and churches could be generously described as complicated.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:47
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Cythereal posted:Politically, yes. There are many black churches in the SBC, but the SBC's leadership is overwhelmingly white and tied to conservative Southern politics - which means white and racist. I wouldn't mind hearing a history/more information if you've got the time or inclination. If not then thanks, it's very much appreciated!
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Dec 31, 2016 20:48
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HEY GAL posted:i'll see you against the wall I'm going to start saying goodbye like this.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:50
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Josef bugman posted:I wouldn't mind hearing a history/more information if you've got the time or inclination. Don't have time right now, but I'll try to make an effort post later today. Long story short, the SBC is the church of the rural American South, which is deeply and profoundly divided based on race. The South is one of the poorest and blackest parts of the country, and broadly speaking both the rural and poor whites and rural and poor African-Americans are deeply conservative on most to all issues save one. That one issue is race, and the political division between poor rural whites and poor rural blacks in the American South dates back centuries. They have almost everything in common, and if the American right could ever jettison the racism part of the platform then African-Americans would probably be a reliably red voting bloc. The American right is not going to jettison the racism part of the platform, and the SBC is something of a microcosm of race and politics in the American South. By and large, black churches and white churches in the South believe almost everything the same and take the same conservative stances on social issues and morality. Except for issues of race, and even though the SBC has no official stance on race it's overwhelmingly dominated by wealthy white Southerners and tied deeply to the right wing in American politics.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:54
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is there an analogous black baptist organization to the SBC?Josef bugman posted:The peasantry I could see it happen to. Most of the nobility are, hopefully, somewhere warm.
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Dec 31, 2016 20:57
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I still love you belgian
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Dec 31, 2016 20:58
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Cythereal posted:Don't have time right now, but I'll try to make an effort post later today. Thanks for this as well mate! its very interesting. HEY GAL posted:i study common soldiers, who had very little power in life and mostly did the best they could before starving/getting sick/getting shot and dying. even if i didn't believe everyone went to heaven, i'd hope for the best for them. Ahh the Poor Bloody Infantry. Well here's hoping.
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Dec 31, 2016 21:05
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HEY GAL posted:is there an analogous black baptist organization to the SBC? There's quite a few - the National Baptist Convention being the biggest - but the largest and most influential specifically black church organization in the American South is Methodist, not Baptist. The African Methodist Episcopal church, often simply called the AME, is the leading voice of specifically black Protestant movements in the South and has founded or helps fund a lot of the South's black universities and colleges.
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Dec 31, 2016 21:05
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So. Why is the SBC overwhelmingly white, or why do African-Americans tend to not like the SBC? Short answer: racism. Long answer: centuries of economic exploitation and social indoctrination and prejudice fueled by racism. Longer answer: This is a huge topic that more than a few books have been written about, and it has to be. To really get into this question, you have to understand that you're not looking at a recent phenomenon. Not only do the roots of this issue predate the Southern Baptist Convention, they predate the United States of America. I'm going to try to be brief but cover the major points. Set the way-back machine to the 18th century. The imperial era is in full bloom with all the slavery and colonialism that that implies. In the British colonies in North America as elsewhere, an ostensibly deeply pious Christian society had to ask the question of how a Christian society could wreak such evils as imperial Europe inflicted on Asia, the Americas, and most significantly in this case, Africa. The prevailing answer: we're doing it to save their heathen, pagan souls. Slavers and missionaries often went hand in hand - Amazing Grace, the theme song of American Protestantism, was written by a slave trader turned priest. African slaves brought to North America faced the same sort of cultural indoctrination commonly employed against other societies subjugated by European empires: forced "conversion" to Christianity, beatings for anyone who dared speak a language other than English (or the otherwise European language in question for a given empire), and an effort to thoroughly eradicate any sense of history and community the conquered people shared. In most of what would become the United States, this included forced conversion to American-style Protestantism. These efforts were, by and large, relatively successful. If the first generation taken directly from their homes was generally noncompliant, their descendants generally did adopt Christianity and assimilate into American society. Bits and pieces of African culture survived and even became established parts of white society (a lot of classical Southern cooking has African roots, for example). But Christian slaves did not attend the same churches as their white owners except in very unusual circumstances. At most, they'd attend churches attended by poor whites, but this was infrequent. Black religious communities in the American South were always something of their own thing, something originally imposed on them by white people and certainly not common ground with white people. Following the Civil War, this trend continued: in religious spaces as throughout American society, blacks were not welcome in the same places as whites. As the modern shape of religious life in the US began to take recognizable shape, African-American religious communities knew they were not welcome in these generally white-lead religious groups who organized themselves for the benefit of their white congregations. This was usually - but not always - not done out of malice on the part of the white religious movements, American society has been deeply and profoundly divided on race from the beginning. When it became clear to black religious leaders that even white religious groups that accepted black members weren't really concerned with the unique issues and history of African-American communities, many black leaders split off and started their own, specifically black churches and organizations. The oldest significant such movement is also the most influential today, the African Methodist Episcopal church or AME. Religion and politics in the American South have been inseparable from the beginning. The American South has historically been (and is still today, outside of isolated areas) among the most rural and impoverished parts of the United States. The separation of black churches from white churches finds strong comparisons with the unofficial but very real segregation of black and white communities throughout the South in general. Jim Crow may officially be dead, but he's mighty active for a corpse and the division between black and white life in the American South remains a deep, pervasive, and occasionally violent divide today. These days, it's growing complicated with the addition of brown life - Hispanics - who come with a history and host of issues all their own, and contrary to what one might expect there's not been a lot of efforts made to unite Latin-American and African-American causes. Religiously, in part because Latin-Americans tend strongly towards Catholicism, and the different racial communities remain as isolated as ever in much of the South. So yeah, racism.
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Dec 31, 2016 22:33
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| # ? May 14, 2024 23:47 |
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back from vigil Mass, which was cool, except the rector came down the center aisle after Mass ended to shake everyone's hands and wish them a happy new year. except me. I got visibly snubbed. and so church politics begins again; it's on. enjoy your catechumenate becoming Jansenists, father.
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Jan 1, 2017 00:47
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