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Mo Tzu posted:all i know is trigun guy is catholic can i emptyquote this itt?
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Jan 4, 2017 19:37
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Smoking Crow posted:Japanese people don't really understand Christianity but think the symbolism is cool I'm p sure neon genesis evangelion is catholic dogma.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:32
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For some reason, I feel I should notify everyone that Holy Resurrection Orthodox Cathedral in Tokyo is just a short walk away from Akihabara, where basically everything is anime.
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Jan 5, 2017 00:05
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Keromaru5 posted:For some reason, I feel I should notify everyone that Holy Resurrection Orthodox Cathedral in Tokyo is just a short walk away from Akihabara, where basically everything is anime. Cool I hope to get out there at some point so that'll make my anime nerd/religion nerd self guided tour easier
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Jan 5, 2017 00:40
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Keromaru5 posted:For some reason, I feel I should notify everyone that Holy Resurrection Orthodox Cathedral in Tokyo is just a short walk away from Akihabara, where basically everything is anime. That's a really cool looking cathedral.
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Jan 5, 2017 03:31
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The Belgian posted:I'm p sure neon genesis evangelion is catholic dogma. Not at all, but neither is it "just symbolism they thought looked cool." Evangelion deliberately inverts Christian imagery; the character who wears a conspicuous cross wears it as a reminder to seek bloody revenge against the beings who killed her father, and the crucifixion in the movie that caps it off is an attempt by a bunch of selfish old men who already rule the world to make their rule eternal. (Which backfires because the protagonist's mother intervenes in their plans.) The afterlife in Evangelion is explicitly described as a total erasure of all passion and difference (and therefore everything valuable about humanity) and the main character rejects it in favor of suffering on Earth because as long as you're alive, the possibility of happiness exists. It's a great series but at the same time it's virulently -- I don't even want to say "anti-religious" because that's not broad enough. Evangelion is anti-transcendental. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 05:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Not at all, but neither is it "just symbolism they thought looked cool." Evangelion deliberately inverts Christian imagery; the character who wears a conspicuous cross wears it as a reminder to seek bloody revenge against the beings who killed her father, and the crucifixion in the movie that caps it off is an attempt by a bunch of selfish old men who already rule the world to make their rule eternal. (Which backfires because the protagonist's mother intervenes in their plans.) so who's best girl
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Jan 5, 2017 05:51
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i always thought misato was best girl but the internet seems to think the fourteen year olds are best girl even my friend, who is otherwise a normal human being, is like "asuka's best girl" and i'm like "dude she's fourteen"
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Jan 5, 2017 05:53
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Yui is best girl, obviously. "gently caress the Illuminati, I'm going to hide my soul in a giant war machine and give all of humanity a chance to choose life at the moment of their own extinction." Although as a fellow autist I've got a lot of sympathy for Rei.
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Jan 5, 2017 05:56
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Whoever is the females lead in Exosquad is the best girl, because we must secure the existence of our scifi and a future for western animation.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:01
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JcDent posted:Whoever is the females lead in Exosquad is the best girl, because we must secure the existence of our scifi and a future for western animation. how can she be evangelion's best girl think about it jcdent i expected better of you
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Jan 5, 2017 06:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's a great series but at the same time it's virulently -- I don't even want to say "anti-religious" because that's not broad enough. Evangelion is anti-transcendental. Might be a case of a small statistical sample, and might be a case of me misunderstanding you here since I haven't watched the show in question, but most of the anime I watched had elements of this - GunXSword for example was not exactly subtle about it. There's some common themes in these which remind me greatly of how some people from deeply Christian background talk about Islam or atheism - a feeling of inherent opposition prior to any sort of understanding, followed by a mangled understanding of basic relevant concepts that is deeply colored by preexisting notions, followed by a weird logic chain that goes something like "what they think is wrong, and when it states that something is good then it must actually be bad, or there must be a catch, what would the catch be, oh there could be an evil twist, yes, exactly, and that evil twist is what they really believe", followed by "this evil twist is what you really believe, and it's bad, and I will stand against it, scum". Uh... That didn't quite come out the way I intended, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad to understand.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:18
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my dad posted:Might be a case of a small statistical sample, and might be a case of me misunderstanding you here since I haven't watched the show in question, but most of the anime I watched had elements of this - GunXSword for example was not exactly subtle about it. There's some common themes in these which remind me greatly of how some people from deeply Christian background talk about Islam or atheism - a feeling of inherent opposition prior to any sort of understanding, followed by a mangled understanding of basic relevant concepts that is deeply colored by preexisting notions, followed by a weird logic chain that goes something like "what they think is wrong, and when it states that something is good then it must actually be bad, or there must be a catch, what would the catch be, oh there could be an evil twist, yes, exactly, and that evil twist is what they really believe", followed by "this evil twist is what you really believe, and it's bad, and I will stand against it, scum". it's almost like japan is a country where it was illegal to be christian for a long time (leading to many japanese christians being crucified) and even today being christian and japanese is considered weird (unless you do it to get married in a church in which case that's just what you gotta do man, those white weddings are all the rage even now). like this is what silence is about; how weird it feels to be christian and japanese. there's a lot of historical and cultural baggage that comes with it, especially because christianity fell out of favor partially because it challenged the religious structure of japanese society but also because missionaries have been the accomplices of colonial conquest throughout the years and the tokugawa shogunate wasn't going to have that poo poo. and that's why japan was never conquered (except for post-war occupation and the use of japan as an american fiefdom but that doesn't count because it's not colonialism if america does it, right guam, philipines, samoa, and hawaii?)
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Jan 5, 2017 06:28
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Mo Tzu posted:it's almost like japan is a country where it was illegal to be christian for a long time (leading to many japanese christians being crucified) and even today being christian and japanese is considered weird (unless you do it to get married in a church in which case that's just what you gotta do man, those white weddings are all the rage even now). honestly religion in general is viewed with suspicion at worst and curiosity at best, and i don't mean it in the american atheist sense. like japanese people go to shrines every year, visit their family's graves, say the nembutsu at funerals, and sometimes even get baptized and pray in churches, but these aren't necessarily seen as "religion" so much as just things you do because you're japanese (or, in the case of baptism, a thing you do because you're in a christian school or you want to get married in a church) being religious like we're religious in america, by not only publicly identifying with a single religion but making it an integral part of our lives and our identities (and this can also be extended to atheism; i could be mistaken, because my studies of japanese religion haven't included irreligion, but atheism as it exists in the west isn't particularly common in japan either). we care about things like doctrine, and holy texts, and how to live our lives as our religion dictates. that's not just christianity, jews, buddhists, muslims, etc, we all try to do our religion in a way that is important to us. but in japan, that sort of outward devotion to religion is seen as odd at best, because that sort of religious affectation is something that you do in private. and the marking off of other practices because of what you believe is also strange, because japanese people move between different religious functions without even necessarily realizing the difference between what they're doing. christianity is inherently a religion that demands the sort of commitment that japanese people generally don't feel the need to make (at least recently; if you look at the conflicts between jodo shinshu and tendai this isn't necessarily true) and so it's seen as alien to japanese culture. because if you become christian, like really become christian, you can't have a butsudan. you can't visit your relatives graves. and, depending on how much you care about that sort of thing, you can't go to festivals. so there's going to be a suspicion of it and a suspicion of the sort of people who would want you to do that sort of thing. and that's partially where the divide between being christian and japanese is; being japanese demands of you certain things, things that you feel in yourself to your core, and christianity demands you do things contrary to that. living in a society that looks at that with suspicion and disdain while simultaneously feeling as though this isn't a thing you should be doing creates the sort of psychological divide that makes maintaining religious identity difficult
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Jan 5, 2017 06:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Not at all, but neither is it "just symbolism they thought looked cool." Evangelion deliberately inverts Christian imagery; the character who wears a conspicuous cross wears it as a reminder to seek bloody revenge against the beings who killed her father, and the crucifixion in the movie that caps it off is an attempt by a bunch of selfish old men who already rule the world to make their rule eternal. (Which backfires because the protagonist's mother intervenes in their plans.) http://www.animemaru.com/hideaki-anno-admits-some-of-evangelions-religious-symbolism-may-have-deeper-meaning/
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Jan 5, 2017 09:26
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Now I understand how Cythereal feels when we discuss liturgical stuff.
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Jan 5, 2017 17:22
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CountFosco posted:That's a really cool looking cathedral. The Catholic cathedral in Tokyo, on the other hand, is where you fight the final boss. e: Does anyone have any good resources for what's dogmatic teaching about Purgatory versus just what's weird folk Catholicism. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 17:32
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quote:Horrible anime nerd derail I can't seem to find the smiley that opens a door, blushes and backs awkwardly out again, so pretend I posted it here 
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Jan 5, 2017 23:32
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Tias posted:I can't seem to find the smiley that opens a door, blushes and backs awkwardly out again, so pretend I posted it here 
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Jan 5, 2017 23:35
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Tias posted:I can't seem to find the smiley that opens a door, blushes and backs awkwardly out again, so pretend I posted it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXTRFpuknvI
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Jan 5, 2017 23:40
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That Tokyo Cathedral is certainly... an intimidating place to worship.[/url]The Phlegmatist posted:The Catholic cathedral in Tokyo, on the other hand, is where you fight the final boss. Let's see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say! quote:http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm As with most things the Catechism says about the life after death, it's vague on the imagery and details of the sensory experience. Typical bet-hedging, if you ask me, since we all know Purgatory will resemble a dental waiting room, passing the time until the receptionist calls us by name.
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Jan 6, 2017 00:02
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Caufman posted:That Tokyo Cathedral is certainly... an intimidating place to worship.[/url]
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Jan 6, 2017 00:18
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you know what i'm glad church architects in japan leaned into the perception of the catholic church as evil and just went for the most terrifying interior i have ever seen
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Jan 6, 2017 00:30
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One thing I like about Wikipedia is learning the Church Latin names of cities: Hochiminhopolitana (Ho Chi Minh City) Neo-Eboracensis (New York) Angelorum in California (Los Angeles) Hierosolymitanus (Jerusalem) Tigiuanaënsis (Tijuana) Sciiamchiamensis (Hong Kong)
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Jan 6, 2017 01:23
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Caufman posted:One thing I like about Wikipedia is learning the Church Latin names of cities:
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Jan 6, 2017 01:25
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Mo Tzu posted:honestly religion in general is viewed with suspicion at worst and curiosity at best, and i don't mean it in the american atheist sense. like japanese people go to shrines every year, visit their family's graves, say the nembutsu at funerals, and sometimes even get baptized and pray in churches, but these aren't necessarily seen as "religion" so much as just things you do because you're japanese (or, in the case of baptism, a thing you do because you're in a christian school or you want to get married in a church) You make these broad sweeping statements as though they're simply axiomatic. The Japanese don't feel a need to make commitment? That flies in the face of all of the Japanese history I've read, and furthermore imagines a sort of "national psyche" that a thinker like Chesterton would readily embrace. Here's one: Christianity naturally flourishes in America because Americans naturally feel a need for authority, the immigrants coming from deeply authoritarian cultures. No, wait, Christianity naturally flourishes in America because the widespread literacy of the early immigrants allowed for evangelism on a mass scale. Also, what do you mean you can't visit your relatives graves if you're a Christian? Does Catholicism not allow this? Because that would be really really weird, considering you can not only visit graves as a Christian but even, dare I say it, pray for the dead.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:34
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CountFosco posted:You make these broad sweeping statements as though they're simply axiomatic. The Japanese don't feel a need to make commitment? That flies in the face of all of the Japanese history I've read, and furthermore imagines a sort of "national psyche" that a thinker like Chesterton would readily embrace. Here's one: Christianity naturally flourishes in America because Americans naturally feel a need for authority, the immigrants coming from deeply authoritarian cultures. No, wait, Christianity naturally flourishes in America because the widespread literacy of the early immigrants allowed for evangelism on a mass scale. https://books.google.com/books?id=u...ligious&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=9IZMAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false (the chapter on multiple religious belonging and japanese identity) i also mention silence, but shusaku endo has written a lot about japanese identity and catholicism so i mean take it up with toshimaro ama and jan van bragt, i guess, aka my scholastic sources for these posts
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Jan 6, 2017 01:42
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also not for nothing but there are a lot of complicated cultural and historical reasons why religion is more important in america than it is in europe like these are sociological questions that people have observed and there's like... nothing wrong with looking at things from this sort of macroperspective? as it turns out socialization usually depends on where you're born, like whether you focus on indivdiualism or collectivism for one thing. and yes, odds are how religious you are is tied in part to what country and culture you're from. and like there's a lot of religious aspects to grave visiting that are probably not compatible with certain interpretations of catholicism, i mean there's a reason there was a rites controversy in china also also not for nothing but my japanese teacher, upon finding out i study religion and japanese religions, asked me "how come we're not as religious as americans" so like i do not understand where you're coming from
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Jan 6, 2017 01:50
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why are koreans so crazy when it comes to Christianity, that's what I always wondered, like the largest Pentecostal megachurch in the world is in Seoul and is about half a million members strongCaufman posted:As with most things the Catechism says about the life after death, it's vague on the imagery and details of the sensory experience. Typical bet-hedging, if you ask me, since we all know Purgatory will resemble a dental waiting room, passing the time until the receptionist calls us by name. Mostly I'm curious about the whole "souls you bounce out of purgatory will then go to heaven and pray continuously for you" thing because if were true I wouldn't waste my time doing anything else. Just have Mass intentions said for the poor souls every Sunday until I have squad prayin' at all times and I'm holy enough to make Jesus blush. I don't think it's a dogmatic teaching though, just another episode of weird Catholic things.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:18
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it has to do with post-war korea and reactions against the korean military dictatorship basically, right message, right place, right time led to korea going from minority christian to more than half christian in a couple of decades look up minjung theology, korean contributions to theology are pretty good and they usually talk about this period in pretty decent detail
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Jan 6, 2017 02:26
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Can confirm that Korean Christians are extremely pious, broadly speaking. Here in Los Angeles the three most common (Christian) liturgical languages are Spanish, Korean, and English.. A lot of churches will have multiple services back to back in different languages. My old Lutheran church shared their building with a Korean Presbyterian (?) congregation and some Old Catholics who were super chill, HEY GAL met them when she came with me on Easter. Someone once told me one of the reasons for the tons of Korean churches are they were a way for Koreans to come to the US on student visas to "study" at Korean church and theological schools and find a way to eventually immigrate. That is very likely 100% racist bullshit. Edit: I regularly walk by an intersection that has a mosque on one side and right across the street is a big Korean Evangelical church. Diversity is cool folks. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 02:52
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Pellisworth posted:Edit: I regularly walk by an intersection that has a mosque on one side and right across the street is a big Korean Evangelical church. Diversity is cool folks. 
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Jan 6, 2017 03:00
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I was confused for a minute because I thought the Catholic Church had buried the concept of Purgatory a few years ago. But turns out I was mixing it up with Limbo. You learn something new every day.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:05
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Requesting the Dog Temple story.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:06
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Worthleast posted:Requesting the Dog Temple story. there's a temple in taiwan based around a family that was murdered, and their dog kept jumping in their grave so the dog was buried alive with the family (because  i guess). as is common in chinese civil religion, they eventually became to be understood as gods, with the daughter being said to have appeared during a bombing in wwii and caught bombs in her apron. now, the dog of this family is said to be especially responsive to prayers, and therefore the temple's reputation is focused around the dog. it's considered to be so effective at responding to prayers that not only do mobsters and sex workers go there at night, but people who are talking with missionaries eventually give up on christianity to go to the dog temple, prompting a missionary friend of my old buddhism professor to call him up and say "we lost another one to the dog temple"a dog god is a good god because dogs love you no matter what
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Jan 6, 2017 03:24
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Mo Tzu posted:there's a temple in taiwan based around a family that was murdered, and their dog kept jumping in their grave so the dog was buried alive with the family (because Something about this story pleases me so much. Thank you.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:32
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I still wish I had that book that was basically "Chinese legends about dogs" the prince that marries a princess but whoops she's a ghost dog so she runs off with everything, the prince that marries a princess but whoops she's a ghost dog and he's like "hey baby" and they have a bunch of kids, the prince that's...actually a literal dog and also has a bunch of kids with his human princess like I imagine at some point a Chinese kid would be like "cool grandma a new story wait which of these characters are going to be dogs this time?" e:  this list is missing Catholicism and anime, what a shameful Independent Fundamentalist Baptist The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 03:42
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The Phlegmatist posted:Mostly I'm curious about the whole "souls you bounce out of purgatory will then go to heaven and pray continuously for you" thing because if were true I wouldn't waste my time doing anything else. Just have Mass intentions said for the poor souls every Sunday until I have squad prayin' at all times and I'm holy enough to make Jesus blush. I don't think it's a dogmatic teaching though, just another episode of weird Catholic things. Hey, whatever gets you motivated to spread goodness and holiness, brother.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:26
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Mo Tzu posted:like these are sociological questions that people have observed and there's like... nothing wrong with looking at things from this sort of macroperspective? as it turns out socialization usually depends on where you're born, like whether you focus on indivdiualism or collectivism for one thing. and yes, odds are how religious you are is tied in part to what country and culture you're from. I do not deny that there are cultural and historical influences on a person, but to say that a person is the way they are solely based on these factors strikes me as adopting a deterministic cosmological world-view that I cannot abide. Whether a Japanese person is religious or not is based on the interaction of their free will with their phenomenological experience, which includes culture, history, family, friends, ideology, etc. As for your Japanese teacher, his perception of Japanese as less religious than Americans was based on his own opinion. I do not deny that it is true that the way Japanese society and people currently behave is less religious than Americans, but this is distinct from the essential nature of Japanese people, which is the same as all other people: a human nature.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:39
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CountFosco posted:I do not deny that there are cultural and historical influences on a person, but to say that a person is the way they are solely based on these factors strikes me as adopting a deterministic cosmological world-view that I cannot abide. Whether a Japanese person is religious or not is based on the interaction of their free will with their phenomenological experience, which includes culture, history, family, friends, ideology, etc. first of all, my teacher's a woman. way to be all sexist and whatnot second i think you're reading into my discussion of the historical and cultural reasons behind japanese religiosity (and a sort of general "japanese attitude towards religion" which can be more accurately called "the average japanese person's interaction with religion") some sort of anthropological argument that i'm not making i don't even believe there is such a thing as "human nature' my man and the reason i don't talk about individualist factors when it comes to being religious in japan is because like... that doesn't give you an insight into why so much japanese pop culture views the catholic church and churches/religion in general as suspicious?? this is like me giving an overview of japanese cuisine and you coming at me like "individual chefs interpretations of these traditional flavors is formed by their own individual nature!" like yeah dawg that's true but that's not gonna answer the question of why almost all japanese dishes use soy sauce
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Jan 6, 2017 04:48
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