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Trabisnikof posted:Why don't you go back to GBS where you can post all the racial slurs you want? Nice anime avatar bitch
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Jan 7, 2017 19:15
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Carmant posted:Nice anime avatar bitch 
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Jan 7, 2017 19:16
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Let's fight mother fucker
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Jan 7, 2017 19:17
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When some people dares to say Black Lives Matter in response to a series of publicized murders by the police, people got angry enough to counter that All Lives Matter, or worse, Blue Lives Matter. Don't Kill Black People Especially If You Don't Have To is an extreme enough stance that people are actually angry about it and rallying behind the executioners. Telling anyone that the correct response to this is empathy and endlessly monitoring one's own tone is super hosed up and yes Part Of The Problem
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Jan 7, 2017 19:18
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Where are all these people coming from?
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Jan 7, 2017 19:18
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Carmant posted:I dont benefit from a systematic oppression of black people either. Nah dude, p much anyone who isn't black has familial wealth (even if it's gently caress all) built due to oportunites they or their ancestors have because they weren't black, and you're sure as hell doing your best to stand up for the system ITTs, or in other words
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Jan 7, 2017 19:19
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Fluffdaddy posted:Where are all these people coming from? GBS
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Jan 7, 2017 19:20
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Octatonic posted:Nah dude, p much anyone who isn't black has familial wealth (even if it's gently caress all) built due to oportunites they or their ancestors have because they weren't black, and you're sure as hell doing your best to stand up for the system ITTs, or in other words I'm sure cletus with his family fortune of grandmas beanie baby collection gives a poo poo about that
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Jan 7, 2017 19:21
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Death Bot posted:When some people dares to say Black Lives Matter in response to a series of publicized murders by the police, people got angry enough to counter that All Lives Matter, or worse, Blue Lives Matter. Its crazy how people don't seem to be able to talk or think clearly about the race issue. Like how you're saying when black lives matter started there was that counter movement all lives matters, and people were saying "black lives matter" and "all lives matter" as if the two ideas were opposed, and they would just say slogans like that at each other instead of trying to figure out what anyone was talking about, what do you all think about this...
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Jan 7, 2017 19:21
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Octatonic posted:black. I'm pretty sure someone who post the n-word (use/reference be damned) in GBS to be "shocking" actually isn't trying to learn about racial discrimination.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:21
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Dog Jones posted:Its crazy how people don't seem to be able to talk or think clearly about the race issue. Like how you're saying when black lives matter started there was that counter movement all lives matters, and people were saying "black lives matter" and "all lives matter" as if the two ideas were opposed, and they would just say slogans like that at each other instead of trying to figure out what anyone was talking about, what do you all think about this... Black Lives Matter was a slogan meant to reiterate that black people are human beings who should be treated with respect and dignity and not killed indiscriminately. All Lives Matter was a counter slogan by confused white people who thought that black people were trying to put themselves above others, completely missing the context of racism...somehow. Some people were just trying to be colorblind, but that, again, misses the reality of racism and shuts down a valid movement for no reason. Frankly I don't know how Blue Lives Matter is supposed to mean anything aside from "cops did nothing wrong" when considered that the original context is a movement to stop police from killing black people...
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Jan 7, 2017 19:29
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Dog Jones posted:Not really I mean he said that the tone argument is important. Its a pretty will known informal fallacy at this point, hardly reasonable to say that its important and then give no reasons why. He was referring to the tone of people in a discussion thread, some of whom seem to be incredibly combative. How is tone not relevant in having a discussion? To be clear I'm not here to be a GBS racist. I hate this racist lovely country with all of my heart. I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding what the hell about that guys posting set people off so much because it seemed pretty drat reasonable.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:30
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veni veni veni posted:Sorry I didn't feel like making an effort post in response to your Tumblr dump. Nothing ITT has been the least bit alienating unless you are actively going out of your way to be alienated in order to fuel a persecution complex, in which case you probably aren't much of an ally.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:31
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veni veni veni posted:He was referring to the tone of people in a discussion thread, some of whom seem to be incredibly combative. How is tone not relevant in having a discussion? quote:To be clear I'm not here to be a GBS racist. Yet here you are.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:36
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Death Bot posted:Black Lives Matter was a slogan meant to reiterate that black people are human beings who should be treated with respect and dignity and not killed indiscriminately. Yeah I'm not sure how the all lives matter people missed the point so hard, I also get the feeling that now on the other side of that controversy no one has a better understanding either. I dont think the all lives matter bullshit shut anything down though I thought black lives matter was still doing their thing. I don't know if all lives matter or blue lives matter actually did anything or if they were just slogans (unlike black lives matter which actually organizes people and has demonstrations and stuff). Here's another example of what I mean: I remember when those riots were happening in Baltimore, I was watching CNN and retard Wolf Blitzer was like "isn't that a shame... they shouldn't do this they should peacefully demonstrate" kind of like chastising people for rioting or whatever. But it was crazy who this like "tsk tsk"ing of some rioters was used to sweep aside a massive group of people who were all demonstrating and taking action for a multitude of reasons... and how condemning the methods of some of those people (not even all of them) passed for analysis rather than substantial discussion about people's grievances and what can be done. Thats CNN but even if you read poo poo like Salon or The Atlantic there is almost never substantial discussion of the race issue, and its like people can no longer even approach the topic or something, like we can't think about it clearly much less talk about it in a meaningful way. Its only gotten worse in the wake of the Trump poo poo
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Jan 7, 2017 19:36
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Koalas March posted:Yet here you are Oh give me a break.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:36
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veni veni veni posted:He was referring to the tone of people in a discussion thread, some of whom seem to be incredibly combative. How is tone not relevant in having a discussion? Pretend this said racism instead of feminism http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
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Jan 7, 2017 19:37
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veni veni veni posted:Oh give me a break. 
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Jan 7, 2017 19:38
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veni veni veni posted:He was referring to the tone of people in a discussion thread, some of whom seem to be incredibly combative. How is tone not relevant in having a discussion? Once again arguments about how black people need to just be nicer when it comes to letting racism against them get better was already addressed back in april of 63.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:39
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veni veni veni posted:Oh give me a break. Like maybe don't dismiss people's opinions as a "Tumblr dump" next time if you don't want to come off like an rear end in a top hat?
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Jan 7, 2017 19:39
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veni veni veni posted:He was referring to the tone of people in a discussion thread, some of whom seem to be incredibly combative. How is tone not relevant in having a discussion? Its a misdirection wherein the tone critic avoids grappling with WHAT another person and instead grapples with HOW they said it, ensuring that no progress is made in understanding and everyone is distracted. Why do you think its relevant?
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Jan 7, 2017 19:39
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Dog Jones posted:Yeah I'm not sure how the all lives matter people missed the point so hard, I also get the feeling that now on the other side of that controversy no one has a better understanding either. I dont think the all lives matter bullshit shut anything down though I thought black lives matter was still doing their thing. I don't know if all lives matter or blue lives matter actually did anything or if they were just slogans (unlike black lives matter which actually organizes people and has demonstrations and stuff). The thing is, they really weren't trying to miss the point intentionally. You're trying to find a sympathetic strand among those who wanted to go above and beyond polite normalized racism into overt "No no no see you can't exclude white people, as that makes you the REAL RACISTS"
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Jan 7, 2017 19:40
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veni veni veni posted:He was referring to the tone of people in a discussion thread, some of whom seem to be incredibly combative. How is tone not relevant in having a discussion? Can you quote anything that you feel is "combative" that also isn't 100% true? Because nobody here is under any obligation to sugar coat things to protect your feelings, and I say this as a dude who is as white as the freshly driven snow. If what's being said makes you feel guilty or attacked then that's not a problem with what's being said, that's a problem with you and you need to examine your own life and views to understand why you feel like that.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:43
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teen witch posted:The thing is, they really weren't trying to miss the point intentionally. You're trying to find a sympathetic strand among those who wanted to go above and beyond polite normalized racism into overt "No no no see you can't exclude white people, as that makes you the REAL RACISTS" Yeah, black lives matter was a slogan of black people trying to tell white people to stop killing them for at best bullshit reasons. All lives matter is the standard tone argument response from white people. Blue lives matter on the other hand is the racist white people response of "up yours friend of the family"
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Jan 7, 2017 19:44
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teen witch posted:The thing is, they really weren't trying to miss the point intentionally. You're trying to find a sympathetic strand among those who wanted to go above and beyond polite normalized racism into overt "No no no see you can't exclude white people, as that makes you the REAL RACISTS" Sorry I don't understand your second sentence, what are you saying I'm doing ?
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Jan 7, 2017 19:44
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Trabisnikof posted:I'm pretty sure someone who post the n-word (use/reference be damned) in GBS to be "shocking" actually isn't trying to learn about racial discrimination. I mean, of course. The way that online discussion works is that you're not actually posting to convince the person you're arguing with, you're posting to help people who aren't participating actively in the discussion. Even on these dead, insufficiently gay forums, most people lurk. I don't claim to be particularly effective, but I felt obligated to give a good faith response once. I'm not sure how you're supposed to have the debate that people are asking for though, when the opposing side lives in a fantasy world where history doesn't exist. It's as bad as climate change. No, the lives of poor whites are not good in aggregate. But they are better than the lives of poor black people in aggregate. The lives of middle class white people are miles better than the lives of anyone else, but especially middle class and poor black people. The suffering of others doesn't loving reduce my own suffering, and that my suffering could be worse does not reduce it, but I have still had opportunities and support and fuckups forgiven that my black co-workers and friends didn't have because of the accident of my birth. poo poo is bad, but poo poo would be worse for me personally if not for a bullshit system that stems from the trafficking of human beings, the conquest and enslavement of nations on an unprecedented scale that started hundreds of years ago, and continues to this day. No, I don't do enough to fight racism. No, I can never do enough, but that's not the point. I have to let go of my loving ego. Sure, posting on the internet is useless, but to do even less, or to deny the problem's existence would be being willfully blind at best, or monstrous at worst.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:45
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Dog Jones posted:Its a misdirection wherein the tone critic avoids grappling with WHAT another person and instead grapples with HOW they said it, ensuring that no progress is made in understanding and everyone is distracted. Why do you think its relevant? What, specifically was he trying to avoid? I don't see where he tried to shut anyone down.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:46
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Dog Jones posted:Sorry I don't understand your second sentence, what are you saying I'm doing ? Implying that people who say all lives matter are just "missing the point" vs. them driving into oncoming traffic to avoid the point and make one of their own, namely, that they are tremendously racist. E: tl;dr You're giving goodwill to people who really, truly don't deserve it.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:46
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veni veni veni posted:What, specifically was he trying to avoid? I don't see where he tried to shut anyone down. How would you reword the posts he quoted so that they no longer offended your sensibilities?
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Jan 7, 2017 19:47
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veni veni veni posted:What, specifically was he trying to avoid? I don't see where he tried to shut anyone down. I'm not saying he was trying to shut anyone down or avoid anything specifically. I said that he wasn't really being reasonable in my view because he said that "the tone argument is important" or in other words "we should concern ourselves with a fallacy".
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Jan 7, 2017 19:49
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teen witch posted:Implying that people who say all lives matter are just "missing the point" vs. them driving into oncoming traffic to avoid the point and make one of their own, namely, that they are tremendously racist. I'm sure some "all lives matter" matter people are tremendously racist and some aren't. I don't buy the idea that all the people who aren't on board with BLM, or say "all lives matter", or more broadly aren't actively fighting racism, all have race hate in their hearts. If thats what you mean
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Jan 7, 2017 19:53
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Dog Jones posted:I'm sure some "all lives matter" matter people are tremendously racist and some aren't. I don't buy the idea that all the people who aren't on board with BLM, or say "all lives matter", or more broadly aren't actively fighting racism, all have race hate in their hearts. If thats what you mean Who gives a poo poo if they're tremendously racist or not, saying all lives matter is at best a tone argument against black people asking not to be loving murdered for at best bullshit reasons.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:55
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Dog Jones posted:I'm sure some "all lives matter" matter people are tremendously racist and some aren't. I don't buy the idea that all the people who aren't on board with BLM, or say "all lives matter", or more broadly aren't actively fighting racism, all have race hate in their hearts. If thats what you mean The problem with that is intent doesn't matter. Those people are either passively accepting, benefiting from, encouraging and/or continuing our oppression. You could argue some are good but ignorant, whatever that's nice if true but they're still a huge part of the problem.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:57
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Gringostar posted:Who gives a poo poo if they're tremendously racist or not, saying all lives matter is at best a tone argument against black people asking not to be loving murdered for at best bullshit reasons. Yeah totally, what I said before was pointing out how poo poo like "all lives matter" and debating if all lives matter and what people mean when they say that, and what they think is what passes for discussion and analysis of the race issue. I guess this is an example of what I mean!
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Jan 7, 2017 19:57
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Koalas March posted:The problem with that is intent doesn't matter. Those people are either passively accepting, benefiting from, encouraging and/or continuing our oppression. Yeah I agree that the fact that 100% of the population isn't actively fighting racism is a problem, what I was trying to say before is how there seems to be so little substantial discussion of the race issue in media and even in our conversations and the way we are discussing things right now (and from what I was seeing earlier when those people were trying to own each other)
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Jan 7, 2017 20:02
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Who What Now posted:How would you reword the posts he quoted so that they no longer offended your sensibilities? As much as you want me to be. I am not offended, sorry. Dog Jones posted:I'm not saying he was trying to shut anyone down or avoid anything specifically. I said that he wasn't really being reasonable in my view because he said that "the tone argument is important" or in other words "we should concern ourselves with a fallacy". personally I really disagree that tone doesn't matter in the context of a conversation. Someone isn't going to get the same results with screaming and ranting than they are by trying to engage someone. Not that I'm referring to you there. I appreciate your reasoned responses. I'll peace out of this thread now.
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Jan 7, 2017 20:05
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Actually, and you know what? This kind of supposedly "hostile", uncompromising attitude that certain posters are decrying was actually a major component in helping me realize the scale and enormity of what racism is. I needed to see other humans expressing their rightful rage, and to not compromise, to say, no, the truth is not in the loving middle in order to start start to understand how pervasive racism is, to understand how inundated our society, our culture, and our daily lives are with little things that make things worse for people who aren't white. The thing about systems, be they capitalism, racism, or sexism, is that they exist on superhuman levels. Racism isn't just about your beliefs, and I'm not sure why we've taught it that way. Racism is a pattern of behavior, done by you, and done by those around you. You are perpetuating the system when you don't challenge the pattern. That's all there is to it. No asks you to feel guilty, or to feel bad for your white privilege, unless it is to ask you to try empathizing with people of different experiences. We are being told to put in a bit of effort, to get over our defensiveness, think more about what we do and why, and do better.
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Jan 7, 2017 20:08
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veni veni veni posted:As much as you want me to be. I am not offended, sorry. Then why did you say anything in the first place if you didn't have any problem with the tone?
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Jan 7, 2017 20:09
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veni veni veni posted:As much as you want me to be. I am not offended, sorry. And for the third time, the reason why tone arguments are bullshit was already covered back in april of 63.
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Jan 7, 2017 20:09
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If there is a combative tone, that's good because that means it will stick with you longer so hopefully you can think about what's said instead of brushing it off.
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Jan 7, 2017 20:28
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