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Also counterpoint: look across the Atlantic for a good example of what a country that undervalues and underpays its teachers looks like. (Hint: It's not Canada)
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Jan 12, 2017 20:13
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Drone posted:Also counterpoint: look across the Atlantic for a good example of what a country that undervalues and underpays its teachers looks like. Did you just try to convince me by appealing to my empathy with Americans?  [I'm pretty sure that Americans in general still earn statistically significantly more than Germans, including teachers.]
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Jan 12, 2017 20:15
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Vermutlich auch nur, weil die oberen Einkommen die Statistik verzerren.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:18
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JaucheCharly posted:Vermutlich auch nur, weil die oberen Einkommen die Statistik verzerren. Still holds true when looking at median instead of average. And if we allow for anecdotes I have a huge quotedumbs of BFC goons saying their 100-500k incomes are not much by American standards.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:20
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Randler posted:Did you just try to convince me by appealing to my empathy with Americans? More that if you think teachers should be paid less, there's a good country to point at as an example of the consequences that follow that
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Jan 12, 2017 20:24
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I know so many Lehrer with extreme Absetzbestrebungen, sei es in die Promotion, sei es in die Lehrerausbildung, sei es in andere Berufsfelder. Apparently teachers start getting nightmares about a week before Ferienende. Heard horrible things about integrierte Klassen and Willkommensklassen too, a smattering of actually motivated people in a class of "16yolds" with grey hair and violence problems shittily hitting on you etc. I don't envy teachers at all. This one time I called two Innenministerien and a I think the BKA? over the Kategorie "Sonstige" in the Politisch motivierte Kriminalitätsstatistik. It turns out that it's not a cool secret neither links nor rechts extremist movement that's behind those.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:37
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Sounds like a bunch of racist Wohlstandsbonzen afraid that their AfD and Realo votes might not stem the flood of ~*~the Other~*~ fast enough, which brings me back to my previous point:Randler posted:Lehrer und evangelische Pfarrer, die Keimzellen der Reaktion und des Faschismus
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Jan 12, 2017 20:40
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aphid_licker posted:I know so many Lehrer with extreme Absetzbestrebungen, sei es in die Promotion, sei es in die Lehrerausbildung, sei es in andere Berufsfelder. Apparently teachers start getting nightmares about a week before Ferienende. Heard horrible things about integrierte Klassen and Willkommensklassen too, a smattering of actually motivated people in a class of "16yolds" with grey hair and violence problems shittily hitting on you etc. I don't envy teachers at all. Your posting style has evolved into a linguistic art form, I approve 👍
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Jan 12, 2017 20:54
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Randler posted:Still holds true when looking at median instead of average. Guillotine.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:06
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aphid_licker posted:I know so many Lehrer with extreme Absetzbestrebungen, sei es in die Promotion, sei es in die Lehrerausbildung, sei es in andere Berufsfelder. Apparently teachers start getting nightmares about a week before Ferienende. Heard horrible things about integrierte Klassen and Willkommensklassen too, a smattering of actually motivated people in a class of "16yolds" with grey hair and violence problems shittily hitting on you etc. I don't envy teachers at all. I dunno, me' mate. All my Lehrer friends have landed pretty nicely with cushy jobs, pay and working conditions. Better than a lot of other people. Plus, I've worked several semesters as a Tutor and it was the chillest work ever. Once you have prepared a class/subject once, it was just the same poo poo over and over and over. One time I had to turn up still drunk from the night before and I don't think anyone even noticed or cared. 
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Jan 12, 2017 21:18
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
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Jan 12, 2017 21:30
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But seriously, Lehrer are cool. I can name more than enough cool Lehrer from my Schulzeit and most of the Lehrerpeople in my age-group are also nice and chill people. Just joking around here. The only person itt who really hates lehrer is Randler and I would keep at least two Armslängen away from him, if you are teaching anyone anything for money.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:49
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Randler posted:Lehrer und evangelische Pfarrer, die Keimzellen der Reaktion und des Faschismus Hey, wenigstens wird bei uns Evangelen die Pädophilie weniger gerne gesehen. Und, das erzkatholische Italien hat den Faschismus auch ganz alleine zu Stande gebracht. 
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Jan 13, 2017 03:04
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So, genug Deutschland, genug gutes Bier, genug Umlaute auf dem Keyboard, ab zurück nach Arizona! Welcher Idiot bucht schon nen Flug am Freitag, den 13. Es ist ich. Ich ist dieser Idiot.
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Jan 13, 2017 03:48
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Duzzy Funlop posted:So, genug Deutschland, genug gutes Bier, genug Umlaute auf dem Keyboard, ab zurück nach Arizona! Bin mal am 11.9. von New York abgeflogen. Feels strange man.
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Jan 13, 2017 07:35
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As a Lehrer with nightmares and Absetzbestrebungen knowing that the end of the school year is months away yet (14. Juli), I can only say ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Edit: pay's decent though Edit 2: Fffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckckckfkfk
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Jan 13, 2017 09:18
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The real problem isn't necessarily the many benefits Beamte get (although there is also that), it's that these benefits and their job security were offset by comparatively lower wages. Then wages in many industries stagnated over decades and suddenly Beamte get all the benefits and earn more than most people. We need to start paying other people more.
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Jan 13, 2017 09:37
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Just pay Beamten less and let them work more. Core part of the Beamtenstatus is that their Besoldung can be adjusted and that they are on duty 24/7. Also, stop making teachers Beamte.
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Jan 13, 2017 10:04
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Let us start this by paying you less, letting you work more and taking away your security so that we can spread the misery of postmodern existence evenly. Solidarität!
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Jan 13, 2017 10:35
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Pay teachers according to their actual work quality and punish them if they try to spread their political ideology in the class room.
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Jan 13, 2017 10:45
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GaussianCopula posted:Pay teachers according to their actual work quality and punish them if they try to spread their political ideology in the class room. By introducing a series of yearly, mandatory, and ever-changing standardized tests that are applied uniformly across large, vastly different geographic regions? Ooh I know, let's also make mandatory curricula set by elected officials who certainly don't have any political agendas of their own!
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Jan 13, 2017 10:59
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Babies Getting Rabies posted:Then wages in many industries stagnated over decades and suddenly Beamte get all the benefits and earn more than most people. http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/vergleich/entwicklung1/
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Jan 13, 2017 10:59
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GaussianCopula posted:Pay teachers according to their actual work quality and punish them if they try to spread their political ideology in the class room. Let everyone spread their ideology as well as a class on statistics and logical fallacies. Raise pupils who can think for themselves and evaluate multiple beliefs, then choose. Kick GC in the balls. I do agree with paying teachers more- my mother somehow paid for an international school for me, and between smaller classes, well-paid teachers and regular evaluations of teachers and curriculum (the evaluator comes, the inspection results must be posted publicly, the school must also publicly reply with a plan to address any issues, and a follow-up inspection checks the improvements have been implemented or the school loses its license) that place was paradise. Teachers were both competent (or were let go) and motivated.
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Jan 13, 2017 11:02
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Bruttolohnvergleiche sind bei Beamten methodisch verfehlt.
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Jan 13, 2017 11:05
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Ich liebe Beamtenbashing. Wenns der Wirtschaft gut geht macht man sich über all die Beamten lustig, die so doof sind für mikrige Gehälter in den Staatsdienst zu gehen. Ein paar Jahre später dann meckert man mal wieder darüber, dass es denen doch ach so gut geht und die soooo viele Vorteile haben und überhaupt gehört denen das Gehalt gekürzt und arbeiten müssen die sowieso länger, aber ach was rede ich hängt sie einfach alle auf. Als Beamter seit 15 Jahren darf ich mal dazu sagen, dass ich in den Jahren Arbeitszeitverlängerungen aufgedrückt bekommen habe, Urlaubsgeld wurde ganz gestrichen, Weihnachtsgeld um 70 % gekürzt, Beihilfe wurde eine Selbstbeteiligung eingeführt und wenn es nicht gerade Nullrunden gab, reichten Erhöhungen gerade so zum Inflationsausgleich. Beförderungen gibt es wenn man Glück hat alle 10-15 Jahre. DieJustiz wird aber ja auch bewusst Kaputt gespart. Wenn es Beamten ach so gut geht, dann frage ich mich warum zB eine bekannte verbeamtete Kollegin (gehobener Dienst) ohne eigene Schulden von Banken nicht mal mehr eine Baufinanzierung gestemmt bekommt. elwood fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 11:13
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Ich denke Beamten geht es ganz gut, ich möchte ihr Gehalt weder steigern noch vermindern. Beamter sein hat viele Vorteile, also brauchen sie kein sehr hohes Gehalt. Aber so viele Vorteile sind es jetzt auch wieder nicht, dass man das mit Mini Gehalt ausgleichen müsste. Randler.
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Jan 13, 2017 11:21
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Randler posted:Just pay Beamten less and let them work more. Core part of the Beamtenstatus is that their Besoldung can be adjusted and that they are on duty 24/7. Also, stop making teachers Beamte. Driving wages down isn't going to help anybody. Agreed upon the rest. GaussianCopula posted:Pay teachers according to their actual work quality and punish them if they try to spread their political ideology in the class room. Shut the gently caress up. As Randler said, Brutto comparisons are a bit useless here. Also, these look at only certain Tarifabschlüsse, which don't cover a lot of people. If we compare that to Germany on the whole, Beamte did very well for themselves, although the gap between them and other group has closed a little bit since 2010.
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Jan 13, 2017 11:27
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Lunar Suite posted:I do agree with paying teachers more- my mother somehow paid for an international school for me, and between smaller classes, well-paid teachers and regular evaluations of teachers and curriculum (the evaluator comes, the inspection results must be posted publicly, the school must also publicly reply with a plan to address any issues, and a follow-up inspection checks the improvements have been implemented or the school loses its license) that place was paradise. Teachers were both competent (or were let go) and motivated. Well, you can pay teachers more if you make sure that they are good teachers. Also, not every Beamte is the same - Police officers have to be treated differently from teachers and civil servants. As to that wage comparison: lol, pick the most successful industry and compare yourself to it.
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Jan 13, 2017 11:44
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im sorry gc your posting quality just isnt what we are loking for here and we will have to let you go edit sorry not sorry
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Jan 13, 2017 12:37
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GaussianCopula posted:
Ah yes, Gesamtwirtschaft the most successfull industry indeed.
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Jan 13, 2017 12:52
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GaussianCopula posted:Pay teachers according to their actual work quality and punish them if they try to spread their political ideology in the class room. I had teachers who would starve if they'd ever been payed by their actual work quality, others would have ended up being billionairs and quit, leaving us with the bad ones. I don't think this is sustainable.
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Jan 13, 2017 13:25
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elwood posted:Ich liebe Beamtenbashing. Wenns der Wirtschaft gut geht macht man sich über all die Beamten lustig, die so doof sind für mikrige Gehälter in den Staatsdienst zu gehen. Ein paar Jahre später dann meckert man mal wieder darüber, dass es denen doch ach so gut geht und die soooo viele Vorteile haben und überhaupt gehört denen das Gehalt gekürzt und arbeiten müssen die sowieso länger, aber ach was rede ich hängt sie einfach alle auf. Geh doch streiken 
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Jan 13, 2017 13:27
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elwood posted:Ah yes, Gesamtwirtschaft the most successfull industry indeed. It is useful in this case, though. Plus, Beamte also cover a pretty wide range of income and qualifications. I don't think we should pay Beamte less. The reason we're having this discussion in the first place is that after 1990 until like 2011, wages in many other areas stagnated or outright dropped. Due to their other benefits as well as the fact that the Beamte were protected from that development to a large degree, they became the center of attention for this. As I said before, I believe the solution isn't to poo poo on Beamte and just pay them less, it's to raise wages elsewhere. This is finally happening now and it's good. Some other things are probably in need of reform simply because they don't seem financially viable in the long run - pkv and Pensionen come to mind. But just cutting them outright is obviously not a good reform, it'd have to be a gradual transition. Also yeah I guess another reason is Lehrerbashing but that's just a dumb german tradition and not related to the point I was trying to make.
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Jan 13, 2017 13:41
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Actually do take away their pkv, nobody needs that and the Lehrerkinder have a hard time getting out when they finish their master's degree aged 35
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Jan 13, 2017 13:48
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https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article161139307/Koelner-Polizei-korrigiert-Angaben-zur-Silvesternacht.htmlquote:Die Kölner Polizei hat ihre Angaben zur Nationalität der an Silvester am Hauptbahnhof kontrollierten jungen Männer korrigiert. Unmittelbar danach hatte die Polizei gesagt, es habe sich bei den 650 überprüften Personen überwiegend um Nordafrikaner gehandelt. Loving this: "Die Polizei untersucht derzeit in einer Arbeitsgruppe, warum die Männer nach Köln kamen." ich vermute mal, um zu feiern, ihr eier
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Jan 13, 2017 14:06
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Given that they came in huge enough amounts that border police saw fit to warn Köln police, and all the way from France to Köln, with Paris being closer or equally distant from any given point in France, it's worth looking into it. At least the idiocy about profiling has died down.
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Jan 13, 2017 14:16
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You lost that argument the last time we had it. Just because as it turns out our police are very bad at racial profiling ("Wie ein Nordafrikaner aussieht, das weiß man", lmao) doesn't make this not profiling.
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Jan 13, 2017 14:19
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And botany knows a thing or two about losing arguments re: security policies.
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Jan 13, 2017 14:30
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Randler posted:And botany knows a thing or two about losing arguments re: security policies.  gg
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Jan 13, 2017 14:34
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botany posted:You lost that argument the last time we had it.
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Jan 13, 2017 14:42
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