|
Main Paineframe posted:You're confusing two different types of whistleblowing here, and the distinction is really, really important. There are whistleblowers who circumvent the normal chain of command and report suspected misconduct to a higher authority within the government, and there are whistleblowers who believe that something the government is doing is morally wrong and leak it openly to the public. The Whistleblower Protection Act, the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act, PPD-19, and other whistleblower protection laws only protect the first kind of whistleblowing - they're meant to protect whistleblowers from being retaliated against by their superiors for reporting problems and misconduct to their supervisors' bosses. There isn't any US law, as far as I'm aware, that protects the second type of whistleblowing - as far as the US government is concerned, going public with classified information is always unacceptable. And honestly, that makes a lot of sense from the government's perspective. If secrecy laws stop applying as soon as someone who looks at the material feels it shouldn't be secret, then secrecy laws might as well not exist. Nobodies get cracked down on harder because there are over four million people with security clearances, which means it's a lot harder to keep watch on the nobodies than the top rankers, so the government makes examples of them because it knows there's no way it can handle a wave of copycat crimes. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. Those are big distinctions.
|
# ? Jan 18, 2017 23:49 |
|
|
# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:06 |
|
NoEyedSquareGuy posted:How so? He leaked a bunch of stuff and fled to Russia to hide behind Putin's skirts.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:07 |
|
Guy Goodbody posted:He leaked a bunch of stuff and fled to Russia to hide behind Putin's skirts. no he didnt
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:10 |
|
to be fair his first choice of a freedom-loving paradise to call his new home was china china was less interested in that nonsense
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:11 |
|
What if it was Snowden who did the DNC hacks? We know he's good with computers, and he owes Putin a favor.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:15 |
|
Hakimashou has well enough defended/cheerled ethnic cleansing in threads before, as if it's not already obvious enough, they're a weird creep obsessed with killing people with government power. It's unsurprising to see them pop up lusting for whistleblower death.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:23 |
|
evilweasel posted:to be fair his first choice of a freedom-loving paradise to call his new home was china He ran to Russia on Assange's advice, IIRC.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:24 |
|
He ran to Russia because he was literally stranded there when his passport was blocked. Assange has been tut-tuting him for being critical of Russia.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:25 |
|
Agnosticnixie posted:He ran to Russia because he was literally stranded there when his passport was blocked. Assange has been tut-tuting him for being critical of Russia. oh hey i had actually forgotten about that part, though it's highly unclear exactly what went down considering that russia would have been free to send him along if they felt like it that said I also discovered this leak of information to the american public of important information they needed to know that he made while checking that out: quote:While in Hong Kong Snowden told the Post that "the United States government has committed a tremendous number of crimes against Hong Kong [and] the PRC as well," going on to identify Chinese Internet Protocol addresses that the NSA monitored and stating that the NSA collected text-message data for Hong Kong residents. Glenn Greenwald explained the leak as reflecting "a need to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and China."
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:31 |
|
The NSA's programs were actually illegal under US law, and whistleblowers who had tried to work within the govt before Snowden had their lives destroyed, forcing his hand. These facts are convienently ignored by his opponents.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:33 |
|
Chomskyan posted:The NSA's programs were actually illegal under US law, and whistleblowers who had tried to work within the govt before Snowden had their lives destroyed, forcing his hand. These facts are convienently ignored by his opponents. and if he'd only revealed those programs, perhaps you'd have a point
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:36 |
|
Yardbomb posted:Hakimashou has well enough defended/cheerled ethnic cleansing in threads before, as if it's not already obvious enough, they're a weird creep obsessed with killing people with government power. Good to know.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:37 |
|
evilweasel posted:and if he'd only revealed those programs, perhaps you'd have a point he didn't reveal anything actually, he passed the info he had over to respectable journalistic outfits who then independently and in some cases against his judgment decided what to publish in what form.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:38 |
|
botany posted:he didn't reveal anything actually, he passed the info he had over to respectable journalistic outfits who then independently and in some cases against his judgment decided what to publish in what form. quote:While in Hong Kong Snowden told the Post that "the United States government has committed a tremendous number of crimes against Hong Kong [and] the PRC as well," going on to identify Chinese Internet Protocol addresses that the NSA monitored and stating that the NSA collected text-message data for Hong Kong residents. Glenn Greenwald explained the leak as reflecting "a need to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and China."
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:39 |
|
Ok and?
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:40 |
|
That said he is certainly better than Assange, but he made no effort to separate out and leak NSA activities that might violate US law and ones that didn't. I mean, I'm sure other countries were interested in knowing how they were spied on by the United States, but that's not whistle-blowing, that's deciding you don't believe in spying on other countries which is absolutely the job of the NSA.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:42 |
|
evilweasel posted:and if he'd only revealed those programs, perhaps you'd have a point
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:43 |
|
Chomskyan posted:If the US was interested in holding anyone accountable for the crimes detailed in the leaks, rather than a singleminded push to punish the whistleblower, maybe you'd have a point. nope, my point is still valid either way, while yours relies on ignoring the rest of that
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:51 |
|
evilweasel posted:That said he is certainly better than Assange, but he made no effort to separate out and leak NSA activities that might violate US law and ones that didn't. I mean, I'm sure other countries were interested in knowing how they were spied on by the United States, but that's not whistle-blowing, that's deciding you don't believe in spying on other countries which is absolutely the job of the NSA. Yes he did, by passing that on to a journalist to decide what to publish and what not to
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:53 |
|
evilweasel posted:nope, my point is still valid either way, while yours relies on ignoring the rest of that "Clearly I am the only reasonable person here as what I say matches my personal biases perfectly" Be honest, you learned how to argue by reading Ludwig von Mises?
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 00:56 |
Forgall posted:Oh good, we found the maker of this macro That's just...I don't even really know how to process that on an emotional level. "Trans-privilege". Jesus Christ. Edit: somehow this post sat in my Awful.app for a while. Sorry.
|
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 01:07 |
|
evilweasel posted:nope, my point is still valid either way, while yours relies on ignoring the rest of that
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 01:42 |
|
There's a word for people who defect to Russia with defense secrets.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 01:53 |
|
I have no love lost on Julian Assange. He's probably in it with the FSB given Wikileaks track record. But he's not an American and wasn't entrusted with secrets, he's a journalist so he can do what he wants with stuff criminals give him. Press is and should always be perfectly free, but people aren't free to share secrets theyve been entrusted with and see them disseminated to our enemies. Doing that should carry the harshest possible penalty.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 01:57 |
|
Also I don't have time right now to read that article and see if it's accurately portraying Greenwald's statement, but if Snowden was put in a position where he had to disclose secrets to a foreign government to avoid imprisonment and torture, that is still a systemic failure. Because in such circumstances the US govt would be forcing Snowden to choose between committing a crime and having his fundamental human rights violated. Although I understand why you'd still want to push the blame onto an individual rather than take a hard look at the much deeper moral failings of the US govt as a whole. e: Furthermore, from a broader moral perspective anything that it's wrong to do to a US citizen it's wrong to do to a Chinese citizen. Human rights don't depend on Nationality and Nationalism is a cancer on humanity hth Red and Black fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jan 19, 2017 |
# ? Jan 19, 2017 01:59 |
|
Chomskyan posted:Nah, I'm pretty sure your argument for the rule of law falls apart once we recognize you're only interested prosecuting the weak, not the powerful. that's a dumb argument by a dumb person who cares what my interests are, regardless of if you know them or not, they don't change what's right or not it just lets you try to weasel out of being wrong
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:03 |
|
Chomskyan posted:e: Furthermore, from a broader moral perspective anything that it's wrong to do to a US citizen it's wrong to do to a Chinese citizen. Human rights don't depend on Nationality and Nationalism is a cancer on humanity hth drawing a distinction between external espionage and internal survellence is a completely normal thing normal people do because one of them empowers a government to act in a more totalitarian way against their citizens and another is states enhancing their security against external threats
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:10 |
|
evilweasel posted:drawing a distinction between external espionage and internal survellence is a completely normal thing normal people do because one of them empowers a government to act in a more totalitarian way against their citizens and another is states enhancing their security against external threats Both tend to follow each other rather closely, and paranoia abroad becomes paranoia at home very easily. Also thank you for establishing your biases, but there is in fact not a lot of rational basis for this divide you're making.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:15 |
|
Agnosticnixie posted:Both tend to follow each other rather closely, and paranoia abroad becomes paranoia at home very easily. man the American public must really have been shocked when Snowden revealed the NSA exists then
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:20 |
|
it is too bad that the paranoid american public thinks that, say, knowing what vladmir putin would like to keep secret would be a good thing to know about, good thing there's not been anything recently that would suggest that is important information to know silly paranoid american public
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:23 |
|
evilweasel posted:that's a dumb argument by a dumb person I don't personally care if the NSA surveillance program was legal under US law or not because I look at the matter from a moral, not a legal perspective. I do however find it ironic that people like you will call for Snowden's prosecution but show no interest in holding anyone involved in crimes exposed accountable. It's pretty clear hypocrisy from my perspective
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:23 |
|
Chomskyan posted:Who gets prosecuted and who doesn't matters because a system that applies one set of rules to the powerful and another set to those who oppose them doesn't actually have a "rule of law". i find it ironic that you're calling for the prosecution of the people responsible for the domestic nsa survelience programs in these posts while not calling for the prosecution of war criminals in african civil wars really makes you think, seems you don't think the deaths of black people are important
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:27 |
|
and the complete lack of any attention to food insecurity in your post, clearly you're one of those young white men who thinks that the only issues that matter are the ones that affect your pet issues, electronic communications
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 02:29 |
|
it's good that chelsea's sentence has been commuted. it's even better that there's an entire group of whiny piss babies who want her to die and they simply just can't understand why she has not been brutally and ruthlessly murdered
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 03:02 |
|
spaceships posted:it's good that chelsea's sentence has been commuted. The best counter to them is "because we're not Russia". Even more so after this election.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 03:47 |
|
Archonex posted:The best counter to them is "because we're not Russia". well, we aren't yet
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 03:49 |
|
evilweasel posted:man the American public must really have been shocked when Snowden revealed the NSA exists then Are you autistic or work for the US government? What exactly is your deal here.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 03:57 |
|
Chomskyan posted:The NSA's programs were actually illegal under US law, and whistleblowers who had tried to work within the govt before Snowden had their lives destroyed, forcing his hand. These facts are convienently ignored by his opponents. Whistleblower protection laws gave him the ability to report any illegal activities to high levels of command, as well as members of Congress. If you think that high-level executive branch officials and all of Congress lack the ability to tell right from wrong or can't be trusted to uphold the law, then fine, but don't expect that massive criminal conspiracy you think is running the entire government to give you clemency after you publicly defy them.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 04:12 |
|
Main Paineframe posted:Whistleblower protection laws gave him the ability to report any illegal activities to high levels of command, as well as members of Congress. If you think that high-level executive branch officials and all of Congress lack the ability to tell right from wrong or can't be trusted to uphold the law, then fine, but don't expect that massive criminal conspiracy you think is running the entire government to give you clemency after you publicly defy them. Not saying it was right or wrong but weren't the NSA's actions being spearheaded by members of congress and that one weird NSA head with the Star Trek room that had a hard on for invading the privacy of citizens? Granted, I may be mis-remembering that part of the leaks. If not then i'm not sure how much higher you can take it than that. Archonex fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jan 19, 2017 |
# ? Jan 19, 2017 04:22 |
|
|
# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:06 |
|
There are also members of congress that think the nsa went too far. I'm sure they could've helped.
|
# ? Jan 19, 2017 04:35 |