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it is, in fact, okay for a game to attempt to incorporate two different experiences, even if one is very different from the other stealth in payday 2 is a fairly methodical problem-solving experience where you slowly learn more about what gives you the best mechanical advantage, get better at it, and master it. in the meantime you have more time to appreciate the scenery and effort that went into everything around you. it's a little like a difficult hiking trail in that way; yes, hiking up and down mountains is 'just walking', but between getting across that gully in a way that doesn't make slip and break your rear end and manuevering around the very wild longhorn bull that just came around a loving boulder less than 50 yards from you*, the mental engagement is actually quite high. and then you can take a bare moment after you have figured out a specific challenge to appreciate the glorious beauty of the park or nature reserve around you. saying 'well play a different/better stealth game then' is also missing the point because folks who enjoy this sort of thing will enjoy the different limitations and semantics that payday's unique take puts on them. loud in payday 2 is a high-adrenaline twitch experience, which is more comparable to laser tag or paintball irl. you are not going to be able to appreciate the interesting flora or graffiti art around you but you will definitely appreciate the cover they give when some dude starts shooting at you. i understand the reasons why people would like one and not the other. it's the same reason you don't find a ton of people IRL who are seriously into both hiking trails and paintball. it's not what you're looking for and that's fine. but the two are not actually directly comparable in basically any way, so when folks come in here and there's No Reason For Stealth To Exist or whatever, you are literally the dude in this comic:  * - this loving happened to me when hiking in the wichita wildlife reserve in oklahoma, poo poo was NOT COOL Coolguye fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 18:16
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It's me, I'm one of those weirdos that likes both hiking and paintball. But I'm fine with never stealthing, nobody I play with enjoys it so I just suck it up and run a Masterforcer ICTV build all day every day. The other problem with stealth is that once you know the most efficient way to do it you just do that every time and it becomes a chore, because the most fun part of stealthing a level is figuring out how to do it. Once that's over it's just going through the motions.
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Jan 20, 2017 18:35
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amusingly at this point I feel the same way about a solved stealth heist as I do the wilderness trails at the national parks near kansas city i too enjoy both hiking and paintball
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Jan 20, 2017 18:38
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Wastrel_ posted:Not a single forced stealth heist should exist. Three is three too many. I repeat, I have no problems with stealth existing within the game. Stealth options for heists, sure. Put a stealth option for every single heist, no problem. Pigeonholing people into doing stealth without any proper justification, in-universe or out? No, that's rubbish. "Not a single forced loud heist should exist." -- just as dumb as what you wrote You're complaining because 98% of the game is what you want and you cannot handle the fact that 2% exists for people other than you. The problem here is with you, not with stealth. maybe in another 1700 hours now that you've mastered finding a PC on big bank, you can master the idea that different tastes exist, and that's okay, and that it doesn't matter if Shadow Raid and Murky Station exist, you have 40+ other things to do instead. Please, consider some perspective. Psion fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 19:04
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Wastrel_ posted:Also, this. Stealth is frankly boring as gently caress and I don't know why anyone enjoys it over loud. But as I've said before, I have no problem with that. People who like to stealth, should get to stealth. Every heist having both a loud and stealth option is something I would be perfectly ok with. Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEyN4dhJIv8 Side Note: I don't mind stealth, but I admit I'm bad at it... at least I was when I was playing this game pre-OA difficulty
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Jan 20, 2017 19:16
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OD didn't really change stealth much, as far as I know. Hitpoint inflation is probably the biggest deal, but 3-vis builds with high damage weapons are easy enough to do. Bring a Cavity, for example.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:19
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yeah one down stealth is functionally identical to death wish stealth; and at the launch of the difficulty there were enough bugs in implementation that many heists were easier on OD than DW when stealthing.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:24
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 i completely agree though, i just dont like stealth because i am not good at it.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:37
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Psion posted:OD didn't really change stealth much, as far as I know. Hitpoint inflation is probably the biggest deal, but 3-vis builds with high damage weapons are easy enough to do. Bring a Cavity, for example. I'm sure this was patched out but an alerted guard took a full clip of my high conceal weapon via the health boost was my fondest memory of One Derp stealth.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:38
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As someone that likes stealth, I think the biggest design flaw is that most of the time you're better doing stealth alone or with one other person rather than playing as a group of four. Every player you add increases your odds of failure by a lot, because there's one more person who can get spotted and blow it all, and also that player's computer won't always agree with what the host's computer is seeing, causing bullshit detections. Having one other person is nice because another pair of hands will speed up a lot of heists, but the third and fourth persons are almost always unnecessary outside of bag hauling. Shadow Raid is the only stealth heist that actually feels playable with a full crew, be it four ninjas sprinting in and picking the place clean in a few minutes, or a couple crooks sneaking in while the less-sneaky guys heft bags so that they can move on to the copshoot, it's just generally a chill heist with a good payout/time-investment so long as you aren't failing it. Pre-planning made it a lot more predictable so it's less fun to replay these days, but I still like the music. Other stealth heists are fun to crack once for achievements, but none of them have the replayability that Shadow Raid did. It's the best stealth heist, and it's a shame that they didn't seem to take any good lessons from it.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:45
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I'd much rather we had more stealth-only heists because I feel Overkill has often struggled to make maps that work well for both quiet and loud. Saying stealth-only doesn't make sense because of whatever flimsy justification they attach to it is a really weird rabbit hole to go down because nothing else in Payday 2 makes any goddamn sense either. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 19:47
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Having stealth only maps is the weirdest thing in a game where a biker gang is transporting military technology on a freight train.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:57
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Scarface works very well in stealth and loud (though the transitions in the house are a bit rocky for preserving progress). On mayhem to OD stealth: They are presently identical. OVK added two guards to Firestarter Day 2, I believe on all difficulties above overkill, though that may be unintentional(the code sez it was meant to be OD exclusive). As with loud play, there are a few places where scripts aren't properly attached and things are made much easier on the new difficulties. The biggest one that hasn't been patched is that there's no timer on the tile system on The Diamond- it plays like Normal difficulty. There's one exception to this. While guards and beat cops in stealth are made of tissue paper, if a criminal enemy of any type is alerted, expect them to have their normal (overinflated) health. I'm writing up a proposal for OD stealth changes. I'll post it here when I'm done for feedback.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:59
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Discendo Vox posted:Scarface works very well in stealth and loud (though the transitions in the house are a bit rocky for preserving progress). On the loud side I feel like there's a lot of issues with AI pathing and cover. The former in particular makes the pacing feel off; holding the office feels really underwhelming when it should feel like more of climax. Both approaches would also benefit from the RNG escapes being better balanced...
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Jan 20, 2017 20:15
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John Murdoch posted:On the loud side I feel like there's a lot of issues with AI pathing and cover. The former in particular makes the pacing feel off; holding the office feels really underwhelming when it should feel like more of climax. Both approaches would also benefit from the RNG escapes being better balanced... I suspect a set of spawnpoints in the red lobby (the skylights) aren't working right. On RNG escapes,  I haven't had major problems with them; they just require different routes.
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Jan 20, 2017 20:16
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Discendo Vox posted:On RNG escapes, Some of it might be down to my most recent experiences (which were themselves at least a month or two ago, thanks Jules) on the map being on OD, but at least for loud, getting the loot from the office to the front gate is a massive pain in the rear end because the cops will stack up on all of the bits of cover that mostly exist for stealth purposes. On the flip side, the boat escape is fundamentally easier because you're working towards the side of the map that literally cannot have any cops spawn from it. Though it also certainly helps that going from the office to the docks takes you through most of the areas with really bad pathing.
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Jan 20, 2017 20:24
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Stealth is the most unique and interesting particular flavor of coop this game has over its L4D origins and competitors. I'm sure everyone agrees it could be implemented better and has some frustrating (technical) issues that should get fixed, but with 348 nonstop wave-killing heists that have about 3 flavors of "hold E on <x>" or "wait for this 4 minute countdown" or "throw 28 bags" objectives that gameplay loop is rather sufficiently saturated and having to manage stealth is a much more conceptually interesting breaker of monotony. Though there should definitely be a softer failure state between "random_pub_zepiroth_420 ran pantsless into the street, instant game over" and "Fighting an army platoon is actually way less hassle than dodging these 84 guards for 15 minutes". Or some more methods of de-escalating.
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Jan 20, 2017 21:38
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OD Stealth changes proposal: My suggestions for OD stealth involve two general changes that apply to pretty much all stealth maps, and a set of more specific or tailored changes to many individual maps. My goals are to provide an increase in challenge and reward that encourages team play, but to minimize the required work that would go into making these changes happen. I've also tried to avoid doing anything that would undermine the utility of heist pre-planning. Please give me your feedback on this if you're willing. I'm especially keen to think about how to improve the two general changes immediately below. All of this is available a la carte! If a particular change makes sense or is appealing, it can work on its own without other changes to screw it up. The Hand: Zeal Guards As the the Z-Team descends on Washington, DHS has "requested" that Gensec and local law enforcement embed their own security personnel. On heists/days where guards are not criminals, some (or all) guards can be replaced by a different "Zeal Guard" model. The Zeal Guard has the following differences: 1. Like One Down criminal units, the Zeal Guard has a fairly large amount of health if alerted. This makes it harder, but not impossible, to preserve stealth if a Zeal Guard is alerted. 2. Zeal Guards have been trained to shoot first and ask questions never. They will not attempt to arrest you, but instead have the "engage" behavior, meaning they will immediately attempt to open fire if they see the player while alerted. 3. Zeal Guards are hardened enforcers. They cannot be dominated or converted. At a minimum, check-in guards on stealth heists can be Zeal Guards. The Eye: Zeal Receivers As DHS occupies DC, they have begun to aggressively monitor all telecommunications for signs of the Payday Gang. As a part of this, they have developed technology to prevent the Clowns from disrupting comms, and spread it throughout areas that they are likely to target. Zeal Receivers will be small objects (about the size of a Gage Package) that can appear hidden on floors, walls or ceilings in any map. They resemble wireless transmitters, and while they are active, ECM jammers will not disrupt cameras or phone calls, or hack SWAT Turrets (it could optionally disable ECM feedback, too). Note that ECMs can still be used for ATMs and doors. The general idea is to remove the ECM "safety net" for players, unless they work to find and disable these devices. I would advise spawning 3 Zceivers in any stealthable map, chosen randomly from a large set of locations. Zceivers can be destroyed easily by melee or any other kind of damage. The challenge is both figuring out their location, and how to access them. A Zceiver could, for instance, be attached to a building wall down the street on Jewelry Store- hard to spot, but easy to deal with. Or it could be placed inside an openable dumpster, or under a desk inside the store- requiring players to enter the map and seek them out. The risk/reward of seeking Zceivers incentivizes team play, observation, and map knowledge at the same time. In principle, if 3 devices are spawned, 2 could be from an "easy" set of locations for a map, and one from a "hard" set to produce consistency in difficulty. Heist-Specific Changes: Many of these changes are similar across multiple heists. In particular, changes to camera systems, loot requirements and check-in guards can make the heist more difficult in a way that does not require extensive map or script revision.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 21:52
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Removing camera operators from some those is a completely pointless gesture because conventional strategies never touch them at all. Who kills both operators on Dockyard, ever?quote:Alesso Arena: And is the guaranteed guard drop on Shadow Raid in context of the exploit being fixed so they always spawn no matter what, or are you intending it to be another dumb system mastery knowledge check.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:19
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John Murdoch posted:Removing camera operators from some those is a completely pointless gesture because conventional strategies never touch them at all. Who kills both operators on Dockyard, ever? John Murdoch posted:HMMMM I WONDER WHY John Murdoch posted:And is the guaranteed guard drop on Shadow Raid in context of the exploit being fixed so they always spawn no matter what, or are you intending it to be another dumb system mastery knowledge check. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 22:25
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm saying it's long and onerous regardless. In practice, you'd be surprised about how much additional time this set of changes doesn't require, because the set of steps doesn't change. And I'm not saying the amount of required loot would have to increase. (also you can cut a ton of time off Alesso with a well-coordinated team, just by leaving one person near the booth to run the show while the others stay in the garage) Discendo Vox posted:The exploit could be fixed, though I don't see it as enough of an advantage that folks would really do it. Adding guards to the warehouse interior after such a long period isn't that big of a deal, since you can have the place mostly cleaned out by that point. The challenge thus becomes more of a race to deal with the interior.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:46
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ostensibly a four man group should be something you expect to have on one down stealth, hopefully for good reasons. i mean nobody shows up to OD loud alone and expects victory over here. having a soft escalation in the form of more guards showing up seems like a perfectly reasonable way to encourage oiled team play without introducing a ton of new mechanics. this view of course relies on the bug/exploit being fixed or worked around of course, but that seems doable (by just having guys walk out of the door out front the gate instead?) i mean i can see why you wouldn't like it but are there other options beyond the status quo here? the status quo is a legit option if the ideas blow rear end but at least in that one isolated situation it seems pretty well thought out.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:55
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John Murdoch posted:Except you're adding massive amounts of mandatory time onto every single step of the heist. Hasn't this been one of Vox's gimmicks since forever though?
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Jan 20, 2017 23:02
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Murdoch knows his poo poo about stealth heisting, so I'm inclined to agree with him. In general, extending time on heist by rote, repeated tasks or forcing longer waits for guard pathing is exacerbating the worst aspects of stealth, not fixing them. it's also relevant that overkill has stayed fairly strongly consistent with calculating average time-on-heist so they're not overlong (this fails to do so) and that stealth heists are all soloable in a reasonable amount of time on any difficulty (this isn't) and if we're just going to give those up, something significant has to be given in return (nothing is). Psion fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 23:07
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John Murdoch posted:Except you're adding massive amounts of mandatory time onto every single step of the heist. It's a ridiculous dick move that affects loud, too, which is already going to be harder thanks to it being OD loud (even a hypothetical not-poo poo OD loud). I'm also strongly biased against any change that increases the amount of tedious dicking around with forklift positioning and inefficient only-two-circle-cutters bullshit. As I just said, this doesn't add anywhere near as much time to the heist as you think if the people involved are coordinated. And it adds zero time to the cutting step. John Murdoch posted:Given how messy Shadow Raid can get even without extra guards thanks to the pathing bugs, I don't see how preventing the extra spawn wouldn't be a standard tactic. Especially if we're talking about running the map with fewer than four coordinated people. It's one bug, it's easily and immediately addressable. Open a door on the balcony. That's all it takes. Psion posted:Murdoch knows his poo poo about stealth heisting, so I'm inclined to agree with him. In general, extending time on heist by rote, repeated tasks or forcing longer waits for guard pathing is exacerbating the worst aspects of stealth, not fixing them. You're explicitly asking me to try to not design for team play, now. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 23:11
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Discendo Vox posted:You're explicitly asking me to try to not design for team play, now. To be fair It's the root of all the flaws in the game.
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Jan 20, 2017 23:49
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Way too easy to just do poo poo on your own than rely on others to touch anything without loving it up. Then again, even with the game designed around actual team mechanics, some people you might want to just sit at the escape van an not touch anything.
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Jan 21, 2017 00:25
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Discendo Vox posted:As I just said, this doesn't add anywhere near as much time to the heist as you think if the people involved are coordinated. And it adds zero time to the cutting step. Discendo Vox posted:It's one bug, it's easily and immediately addressable. Open a door on the balcony. That's all it takes. Edit: Might also be a good time to point that I kind of hate the guard drop on SR as it is. The map does not feel like it's designed to have an extra six guards roaming around. Either you finish the warehouse in five minutes, or gently caress you, take another ten waiting for the guards to spread out and let you actually finish...assuming nothing goes wrong and you don't have to restart anyway! John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 00:30
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John Murdoch posted:Then what am I missing here? By the way you described it, I'm seeing extra time on closets (keeping in mind that guard pathing will add more unpredictable amounts of wasted time on top of the raw picking/searching, because that part is always one big game of stop and go), outright doubling the pyro booth task (which, even taking into account your "time saving" strategy which everyone does by default anyway, leaves three players with gently caress all to do in the basement while one person does the show, something that's already pretty lame in the heist as it is), and then extra time spent doing the least fun thing in the heist, but ok I guess that's optional. At which point it has no reason to exist, because either teams do it anyway and you're incentivizing going through all of that tedium OR people will smartly realize they don't need the money or XP that badly and finish as quickly as possible, making the extra loot irrelevant. John Murdoch posted:I'm pretty sure I've had stuck guards move into position before I can even make it up to the balcony and pick the door open. And even without that crap, you can get screwed by bad patrols blocking you from dealing with the top floor in a timely manner. Really I just think it's baffling that you of all people would claim that an incredibly convenient and easy to perform exploit wouldn't be widely used to bypass an arbitrary difficulty tweak. Shadow Raid doesn't take an hour to clean out, but the chopper is on a five minute timer. C'mon. Guards can move into a stuck position before you open the balcony, but it's rare, since there are only two nodes out there. It's not possible for a patrol to actually block the path to the balcony-at worst you have to circumnavigate one on the roof. There similarly aren't many scenarios in which looting the upper level is really blocked. The exploit requires counting 290 seconds after entering the building space- it's not something people normally do. The guards that leave the helicopter take several additional minutes to begin pathing into the main warehouse. And again, I have no problem with the idea of removing the exploit, I'm just not going to tell ovk to do this when I give them this list of things. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 00:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Most players don't split up for the C4 gathering or pyro show tasks. The time savings is in that players can begin to place cutters as soon as the first set of C4 goes off. Players get the chance to get all of the money, rather than arbitrarily leaving half of it. It's also a hard heist on the highest difficulty. That it's particularly difficult is not a bad thing.  I wasn't aware you could start cutting as soon as a single vault was opened...though now I can see people getting blindsided and downed by the C4 while working. (This also brings to mind the awkward situation where whoever is going to run pyro really doesn't want to pick up a cutter by accident, which means things get slowed down one way or another.) The problem Vox is that nothing you've suggested actually makes the heist more difficult...in stealth, anyway. On the other hand, it makes doing it loud even more of a shitshow than it already is. Kind of a big miss for a list focused on making stealth more difficult. Discendo Vox posted:The exploit requires counting 290 seconds after entering the building space- it's not something people normally do. Apparently I'm a special snowflake because ever since the map came out I've regularly gotten either stuck guards or incredibly unlucky patrols on the upper level that meant that clearing the second floor was greatly delayed, if they didn't put the whole run at risk/kill it to begin with. Mind you, I only brought this up because these are things that make "just be out in 5 min so the chopper guards are nbd  " far less reliable than you make it sound.
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Jan 21, 2017 02:11
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Psion posted:"Not a single forced loud heist should exist." -- just as dumb as what you wrote I'm not sure why you're this pissed off when I've clearly said numerous times that I'm ok with stealth being in the game. it's even right there in the post you quoted that people who enjoy stealth should get to do it. So I'm pretty sure I can actually handle the fact that people like to play the game differently from me. So to make it crystal clear to you: different tastes indeed exist and yes, that is ok. I'm also fine if there isn't a single forced loud heist in the game, because again, I've stated that I'm ok with there being both stealth and loud options in the game. I don't see the problem with not having any stealth-only heists because Shadow Raid, Car Shop and Murky Station will still have stealth options and people who want to stealth them can still stealth them. I've never advocated loving over players who prefer stealth by making the whole game loud. In short, perhaps you will be a bit less angry at strangers on the Internet if you read what they write a little more carefully. Wastrel_ fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 02:56
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Wastrel_ posted:I'm not sure why you're this pissed off when I've clearly said numerous times that I'm ok with stealth being in the game. it's even right there in the post you quoted that people who enjoy stealth should get to do it. So I'm pretty sure I can actually handle the fact that people like to play the game differently from me. So to make it crystal clear to you: different tastes indeed exist and yes, that is ok. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 03:21
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John Murdoch posted:I guess I'm left wondering what the point of these difficulty tweaks actually is, because these changes seem to punish the bad habits of "most players" but wouldn't particularly affect a team of experienced players who are the types to do stealth on OD for fun/challenge. John Murdoch posted:In fact, the more I think about some of these "worst case scenario" RNG changes, the more it seems like they're just forcing you to make a few minor adaptations to a slightly different metagame rather than actually changing anything meaningful. Also, after the thread just had a discussion on the flaws of stealth, you want to add a guard type that sounds custom made to punish desync as thoroughly as possible and force a failure state. John Murdoch posted:I wasn't aware you could start cutting as soon as a single vault was opened...though now I can see people getting blindsided and downed by the C4 while working. (This also brings to mind the awkward situation where whoever is going to run pyro really doesn't want to pick up a cutter by accident, which means things get slowed down one way or another.) John Murdoch posted:The problem Vox is that nothing you've suggested actually makes the heist more difficult...in stealth, anyway. On the other hand, it makes doing it loud even more of a shitshow than it already is. Kind of a big miss for a list focused on making stealth more difficult. John Murdoch posted:Orrr you add +5 minutes to the clock when Bain says the magic words and get to the roof a little ahead of that time. John Murdoch posted:Apparently I'm a special snowflake because ever since the map came out I've regularly gotten either stuck guards or incredibly unlucky patrols on the upper level that meant that clearing the second floor was greatly delayed, if they didn't put the whole run at risk/kill it to begin with. Mind you, I only brought this up because these are things that make "just be out in 5 min so the chopper guards are nbd
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Jan 21, 2017 03:25
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Coolguye posted:it is, in fact, okay for a game to attempt to incorporate two different experiences, even if one is very different from the other Bold is pretty Hahaaha, but the rest of it is gold.
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Jan 21, 2017 04:26
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John Murdoch posted:Apparently I'm a special snowflake because ever since the map came out I've regularly gotten either stuck guards or incredibly unlucky patrols on the upper level that meant that clearing the second floor was greatly delayed, if they didn't put the whole run at risk/kill it to begin with. Regardless of what I think about stealth or bugged guards, I think Vox is a chill dude and people take his posting far too seriously. Or maybe I'm newer here than most and less bitter. I dunno.
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Jan 21, 2017 04:30
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oohhboy posted:Bold is pretty Hahaaha, but the rest of it is gold. i presume you're the guy i hauled off the side of a hill because he was spacing out on the trail and tripped on a rock like seriously I'm not gonna sit here and suggest that you're thinking things through all the time but on actual wilderness trails you need to keep your head up, it's always a combination of funny and sad when I'm on mile 8 of a hike, I pass the first person I've seen in 2 hours, and he's some dumbass that forgot to wear proper shoes or hurt his ankle and didn't bring compression tape
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Jan 21, 2017 04:37
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I have also been told that I am a loony for experiencing this I think people don't get it's a more of a conversation-starter. Like "Not a fan of this idea for this-this-this reason. Maybe as a change, try..." instead of you're in this side and I'm on the other and your side is for idiots.
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Jan 21, 2017 04:48
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Plan Z posted:I think people don't get it's a more of a conversation-starter. Like "Not a fan of this idea for this-this-this reason. Maybe as a change, try..." instead of you're in this side and I'm on the other and your side is for idiots.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:08
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I have done far more dangerous things that require far more rigours planning on a regular basis than hiking. The problem is that you think PD2 stealth is a highly engaging mental exercise which should be a insult to hiking. Staring at guards is not engaging, turning the house upside down for that keycard is not engaging, sitting on your rear end isn't engaging, getting the heist blown because the LOS code is broken isn't engaging, the team waiting for your designated stealth guy to complete the heist isn't engaging. If you want a mentally engaging stealth game Payday isn't it, it is one of the worse you can pick, this is why people are saying that you should go play another game if you want stealth. Play Invisible Inc instead, that can be highly mentally engaging at times and it doesn't require you to stare at a guard for 5 minutes. PD2 stealth is throwing poo poo at the wall until you find what sticks. It's brute force than careful experimentation. Brute force gets you the information you need to complete the heist faster.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:16
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Discendo Vox posted:That's right, better players will find these changes easier to deal with than worse players. Discendo Vox posted:The primary effects of the general changes are to limit the availability of ECMs as a safety net, and block easy use of ECM chains to skip entire maps. The placement of anti-ECM devices is meant to encourage team play and provide a side objective. The described guard changes don't do anything to make desync, or its effects, worse. It removes a particular exploit involving the arrest behavior, and punishes errors. If you really can't see how a guard with high health, who goes 100% hostile as soon as you alert him, interacts with desync...I just dunno what to tell you. And they wouldn't punish errors, plural. They would punish error, because the way you describe them makes them pretty drat likely to immediately fire their gun and alert the whole map thanks to a single mistake. Discendo Vox posted:The C4 can't blindside people, because it blows in sets. The person running pyro wouldn't pick up a cutter because they're on the other end of the map. It does mean the person running pyro should be one of the two players that don't spawn with a cutter. My point with the cutters is that either the elected pyro booth representative is going to gently caress off to the upper level and not help search closets, making that step take longer (and forcing them to wait around doing nothing, great team play!), or they do help and since they can't easily ditch whatever C4 charges or the cutter they might pick up, they'll have to go down into the basement with everyone else. Discendo Vox posted:The general changes interact with the listed changes to the heist to make it more difficult, including in stealth. Having to path through all four quadrants, and having to handle additional areas, is a source of difficulty. In particular, not being able to use ECMs as a safety net without finding the anti-ECM devices first makes the heist play quite differently. Discendo Vox posted:You can also kill guards.  I'll be sure to do just that next time there's a guard blocking my way, standing directly within view of a camera, with a second guard watching him. I'm sure my team will appreciate this cool new tactic! Don't act like there aren't SR layouts that you just have to sit and wait to clear out. And now you can't even say "just pop an ECM" because oops, one of the jammer boxes is past those guards too.To be honest, I'm just kind of done trying to argue over this (and spamming the thread with quote blocks). To sum up how I feel: The biggest changes don't feel like genuine increases in difficulty, instead you're just taking away tools and fall-back options from players. Ultimately, that doesn't make stealth more interesting, it just makes it easier to gently caress up and lose. It's frankly not too far off from how OD loud isn't any better for having you die in two hits and making all enemies take vastly more damage. A lot of the smaller changes are just "RNG thing ALWAYS HAPPENS  " except as I alluded to at the start of this post, RNG effects have a wide range from borderline inconsequential to upending how the entire map is approached (Nightclub, Diamond Store), and in several cases they're a hard sell because I don't think some of them should even exist to begin with, OD or not.I actually do like a small handful of the changes on paper. Permanent check-in guards sounds like it might be a sensible penalty for blowing four pagers on the highest difficulty. Though I wonder if in practice it will reinforce the "stand in the corner and don't touch anything" teamplay mentality. The garage door on Big Oil 1 is also not bad, though I wonder if that would backfire for loud gameplay, giving the players a Rats 1-esque reliable hold-out room to work with. The Mendoza van on Firestarter 3 is a unique obstacle with some flavor, though it sounds like you're relying on them having their dumb inflated OD health values. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 06:28
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